Roast Topping up on senior players was the wrong move

[Nankervis brothers]

good post Leyland Brothers - do you think the club has struck the right balance between 2011-18 in relation to list-building?
you mention the 2nd most players to debut over the last two seasons - I'd like to see that list if you have it handy.

Cheers.

I just tallied the summary of AFL debuts from wiki—was interested to see as it seemed we were 'blooding' plenty these last two seasons. I'll transcribe here.

AFL Debuts by club, most to least, 2017-18:
NTH: 16
GEE: 15
FRE: 15
then a big gap...
BRIS: 11
CAR: 11
GCS: 11
GWS:11
SYD: 11
ADE: 10
COLL: 10
STK: 10
WCE: 10
HAW: 9
PORT: 9
FOOT: 8
RICH: 8
ESS: 7

So, by debuts anyway, we are up there with rebuilding Fremantle and North.

On list-building 11-18, I think the club are being both realistic and ambitious. 'Realistic' because they are coming to the new FA landscape and building that into recruitment, 'ambitious' because they are trying to transition back into a premiership contender without missing finals. Only Sydney have managed to do that (still too early to tell with Hawthorn, but they are trying it too).

I'm in the minority—i think the criticism of Geelong's recruiting, both on here and in the media over the last few days, is ill informed. We are clearly introducing a lot of young/inexperienced players to senior level to see what they look like, so we aren't selling out the future for the present. And some of them look very promising, like Henry and Ratugolea, but it's still too early to say as obviously it can take a few years (Bews is a good example there). I think our senior player recruitment has been, on the whole, very good. I see no reason for buyers remorse over Kelly, Dangerfield, Tuohy, Stewart, Ablett or Henderson. It's true that the risk we run with our current strategy is that we become a perennial finalist but never a premier. But the other option is a five year rebuild which guarantees nothing and freezes the club out of the trade/free agent market, as established players aren't inclined to come to a rebuilding club unless in their twilight years.

I'm not sure if we have the balance right; time will tell. But I agree with Landgraft that Wells has been in good form of late, so that helps.

 

[steady2]

I can take it wherever i like, it's up to the mods to tell me what i can and cant post somewhere, not you.

By all means. You guys enter every topic with your Scott whinges trying to turn every topic into your favorite gripe. It's quite infantile really, but of course if the teacher doesn't catch you, keep it up.

 

[Whit3y]

Cheers.

I just tallied the summary of AFL debuts from wiki—was interested to see as it seemed we were 'blooding' plenty these last two seasons. I'll transcribe here.

AFL Debuts by club, most to least, 2017-18:
NTH: 16
GEE: 15
FRE: 15
then a big gap...
BRIS: 11
CAR: 11
GCS: 11
GWS:11
SYD: 11
ADE: 10
COLL: 10
STK: 10
WCE: 10
HAW: 9
PORT: 9
FOOT: 8
RICH: 8
ESS: 7

So, by debuts anyway, we are up there with rebuilding Fremantle and North.

On list-building 11-18, I think the club are being both realistic and ambitious. 'Realistic' because they are coming to the new FA landscape and building that into recruitment, 'ambitious' because they are trying to transition back into a premiership contender without missing finals. Only Sydney have managed to do that (still too early to tell with Hawthorn, but they are trying it too).

I'm in the minority—i think the criticism of Geelong's recruiting, both on here and in the media over the last few days, is ill informed. We are clearly introducing a lot of young/inexperienced players to senior level to see what they look like, so we aren't selling out the future for the present. And some of them look very promising, like Henry and Ratugolea, but it's still too early to say as obviously it can take a few years (Bews is a good example there). I think our senior player recruitment has been, on the whole, very good. I see no reason for buyers remorse over Kelly, Dangerfield, Tuohy, Stewart, Ablett or Henderson. It's true that the risk we run with our current strategy is that we become a perennial finalist but never a premier. But the other option is a five year rebuild which guarantees nothing and freezes the club out of the trade/free agent market, as established players aren't inclined to come to a rebuilding club unless in their twilight years.

I'm not sure if we have the balance right; time will tell. But I agree with Landgraft that Wells has been in good form of late, so that helps.

Yeah at this stage it looks like wells has done well the last 2 years. But geez, you go through some of our drafts before that and it looks fairly bare

 

[catempire]

Cheers.

I just tallied the summary of AFL debuts from wiki—was interested to see as it seemed we were 'blooding' plenty these last two seasons. I'll transcribe here.

AFL Debuts by club, most to least, 2017-18:
NTH: 16
GEE: 15
FRE: 15
then a big gap...
BRIS: 11
CAR: 11
GCS: 11
GWS:11
SYD: 11
ADE: 10
COLL: 10
STK: 10
WCE: 10
HAW: 9
PORT: 9
FOOT: 8
RICH: 8
ESS: 7

So, by debuts anyway, we are up there with rebuilding Fremantle and North.

On list-building 11-18, I think the club are being both realistic and ambitious. 'Realistic' because they are coming to the new FA landscape and building that into recruitment, 'ambitious' because they are trying to transition back into a premiership contender without missing finals. Only Sydney have managed to do that (still too early to tell with Hawthorn, but they are trying it too).

I'm in the minority—i think the criticism of Geelong's recruiting, both on here and in the media over the last few days, is ill informed. We are clearly introducing a lot of young/inexperienced players to senior level to see what they look like, so we aren't selling out the future for the present. And some of them look very promising, like Henry and Ratugolea, but it's still too early to say as obviously it can take a few years (Bews is a good example there). I think our senior player recruitment has been, on the whole, very good. I see no reason for buyers remorse over Kelly, Dangerfield, Tuohy, Stewart, Ablett or Henderson. It's true that the risk we run with our current strategy is that we become a perennial finalist but never a premier. But the other option is a five year rebuild which guarantees nothing and freezes the club out of the trade/free agent market, as established players aren't inclined to come to a rebuilding club unless in their twilight years.

I'm not sure if we have the balance right; time will tell. But I agree with Landgraft that Wells has been in good form of late, so that helps.

Super post.

 

[romeohwho]

good post Leyland Brothers - do you think the club has struck the right balance between 2011-18 in relation to list-building?
you mention the 2nd most players to debut over the last two seasons - I'd like to see that list if you have it handy.

Loved the Leyland brothers!

 

[romeohwho]

Possibly, but it’s only in hindsight that our draw is perceived as hard.Two of the teams we played twice - Hawthorn and Melbourne - missed finals last year.

And one final little detail, after home and away last year we finished 2nd, then made a Prelim final. Our draw was pretty reasonable, we just weren’t good enough.

Yep but Dees and hawks were always going up the ladder this year. I sure didn’t mark the 4 games against them as definite wins at start of the year. The Dees should have beaten us in the game Gawn got injured in last year.

 

[ATSAM]

Cheers.

I just tallied the summary of AFL debuts from wiki—was interested to see as it seemed we were 'blooding' plenty these last two seasons. I'll transcribe here.

AFL Debuts by club, most to least, 2017-18:
NTH: 16
GEE: 15
FRE: 15
then a big gap...
BRIS: 11
CAR: 11
GCS: 11
GWS:11
SYD: 11
ADE: 10
COLL: 10
STK: 10
WCE: 10
HAW: 9
PORT: 9
FOOT: 8
RICH: 8
ESS: 7

So, by debuts anyway, we are up there with rebuilding Fremantle and North.

On list-building 11-18, I think the club are being both realistic and ambitious. 'Realistic' because they are coming to the new FA landscape and building that into recruitment, 'ambitious' because they are trying to transition back into a premiership contender without missing finals. Only Sydney have managed to do that (still too early to tell with Hawthorn, but they are trying it too).

I'm in the minority—i think the criticism of Geelong's recruiting, both on here and in the media over the last few days, is ill informed. We are clearly introducing a lot of young/inexperienced players to senior level to see what they look like, so we aren't selling out the future for the present. And some of them look very promising, like Henry and Ratugolea, but it's still too early to say as obviously it can take a few years (Bews is a good example there). I think our senior player recruitment has been, on the whole, very good. I see no reason for buyers remorse over Kelly, Dangerfield, Tuohy, Stewart, Ablett or Henderson. It's true that the risk we run with our current strategy is that we become a perennial finalist but never a premier. But the other option is a five year rebuild which guarantees nothing and freezes the club out of the trade/free agent market, as established players aren't inclined to come to a rebuilding club unless in their twilight years.

I'm not sure if we have the balance right; time will tell. But I agree with Landgraft that Wells has been in good form of late, so that helps.

It is what we do with them that becomes the key issue. And a poor game plan, lack of development, dropping them in and out of the senior team is what makes good and great players.

 

[SkittleCats]

By all means. You guys enter every topic with your Scott whinges trying to turn every topic into your favorite gripe. It's quite infantile really, but of course if the teacher doesn't catch you, keep it up.

In a thread titled "topping up on players was the wrong move" you have to expect some discussion about the coaching. If you want to talk about the list, go to the 2018 draft, trading etc thread.

 

[dazbroncos]

In a thread titled "topping up on players was the wrong move" you have to expect some discussion about the coaching. If you want to talk about the list, go to the 2018 draft, trading etc thread.

ok buttecup...

enough dick swinging.

The thread is primarily on the players we topped up with - OP -Some coaching discussion will naturally ensue but if you want to get all frothy on the Coach, you know where to go.

Ive let this go up till now - but its over now.

Go Catters

 

[Spazz Cat]

Cheers.

I just tallied the summary of AFL debuts from wiki—was interested to see as it seemed we were 'blooding' plenty these last two seasons. I'll transcribe here.

AFL Debuts by club, most to least, 2017-18:
NTH: 16
GEE: 15
FRE: 15
then a big gap...
BRIS: 11
CAR: 11
GCS: 11
GWS:11
SYD: 11
ADE: 10
COLL: 10
STK: 10
WCE: 10
HAW: 9
PORT: 9
FOOT: 8
RICH: 8
ESS: 7

So, by debuts anyway, we are up there with rebuilding Fremantle and North.

On list-building 11-18, I think the club are being both realistic and ambitious. 'Realistic' because they are coming to the new FA landscape and building that into recruitment, 'ambitious' because they are trying to transition back into a premiership contender without missing finals. Only Sydney have managed to do that (still too early to tell with Hawthorn, but they are trying it too).

I'm in the minority—i think the criticism of Geelong's recruiting, both on here and in the media over the last few days, is ill informed. We are clearly introducing a lot of young/inexperienced players to senior level to see what they look like, so we aren't selling out the future for the present. And some of them look very promising, like Henry and Ratugolea, but it's still too early to say as obviously it can take a few years (Bews is a good example there). I think our senior player recruitment has been, on the whole, very good. I see no reason for buyers remorse over Kelly, Dangerfield, Tuohy, Stewart, Ablett or Henderson. It's true that the risk we run with our current strategy is that we become a perennial finalist but never a premier. But the other option is a five year rebuild which guarantees nothing and freezes the club out of the trade/free agent market, as established players aren't inclined to come to a rebuilding club unless in their twilight years.

I'm not sure if we have the balance right; time will tell. But I agree with Landgraft that Wells has been in good form of late, so that helps.

It sounds good and it is, but you've gotta factor in the debuts of
2E- 27yo from Carlton
Crameri- Gone
Black - Gone
Kelly- Gone either this year or next.
Parsons - Not looking good
Buzza- Not looking good at all.


But yeah still some awesome ones in Stewart and Henry who almost look certain to be good long servants of the club.
Possibly Savrat and Parfitt too.

 

[steady2]

It sounds good and it is, but you've gotta factor in the debuts of
2E- 27yo from Carlton
Crameri- Gone
Black - Gone
Kelly- Gone either this year or next.
Parsons - Not looking good
Buzza- Not looking good at all.


But yeah still some awesome ones in Stewart and Henry who almost look certain to be good long servants of the club.
Possibly Savrat and Parfitt too.

I'm not falling for the line that we will lose Kelly, we should do everything to hold on to him. He will be here next year and we have a whole year to work on him and the family. I'll go round to his house and mow his lawn with my teeth if I have to.

 

[Spazz Cat]

I'm not falling for the line that we will lose Kelly, we should do everything to hold on to him. He will be here next year and we have a whole year to work on him and the family. I'll go round to his house and mow his lawn with my teeth if I have to.

I'm leaning slightly toward him leaving this year.
Not that I know anything, just the feeling I get.

 

[Landgraft]

Cheers.

I just tallied the summary of AFL debuts from wiki—was interested to see as it seemed we were 'blooding' plenty these last two seasons. I'll transcribe here.

AFL Debuts by club, most to least, 2017-18:
NTH: 16
GEE: 15
FRE: 15
then a big gap...
BRIS: 11
CAR: 11
GCS: 11
GWS:11
SYD: 11
ADE: 10
COLL: 10
STK: 10
WCE: 10
HAW: 9
PORT: 9
FOOT: 8
RICH: 8
ESS: 7

So, by debuts anyway, we are up there with rebuilding Fremantle and North.

On list-building 11-18, I think the club are being both realistic and ambitious. 'Realistic' because they are coming to the new FA landscape and building that into recruitment, 'ambitious' because they are trying to transition back into a premiership contender without missing finals. Only Sydney have managed to do that (still too early to tell with Hawthorn, but they are trying it too).

I'm in the minority—i think the criticism of Geelong's recruiting, both on here and in the media over the last few days, is ill informed. We are clearly introducing a lot of young/inexperienced players to senior level to see what they look like, so we aren't selling out the future for the present. And some of them look very promising, like Henry and Ratugolea, but it's still too early to say as obviously it can take a few years (Bews is a good example there). I think our senior player recruitment has been, on the whole, very good. I see no reason for buyers remorse over Kelly, Dangerfield, Tuohy, Stewart, Ablett or Henderson. It's true that the risk we run with our current strategy is that we become a perennial finalist but never a premier. But the other option is a five year rebuild which guarantees nothing and freezes the club out of the trade/free agent market, as established players aren't inclined to come to a rebuilding club unless in their twilight years.

I'm not sure if we have the balance right; time will tell. But I agree with Landgraft that Wells has been in good form of late, so that helps.

It sounds good and it is, but you've gotta factor in the debuts of
2E- 27yo from Carlton
Crameri- Gone
Black - Gone
Kelly- Gone either this year or next.
Parsons - Not looking good
Buzza- Not looking good at all.


But yeah still some awesome ones in Stewart and Henry who almost look certain to be good long servants of the club.
Possibly Savrat and Parfitt too.

Are you sure that 2E, Crammers and Black were included in the 15? I'm pretty sure that's AFL debuts.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Are you sure that 2E, Crammers and Black were included in the 15? I'm pretty sure that's AFL debuts.

No, Im certainly wrong. I can think of
Buzza,
Sav,
Abbott,
Oconnor
Zuthrie,
Simpson
Parfitt
Stewart
Fog,
Jones
Narkle
Henry
Kelly,
Parsons
Thats 14 already.

 

[iameviljez]

I'm not falling for the line that we will lose Kelly, we should do everything to hold on to him. He will be here next year and we have a whole year to work on him and the family. I'll go round to his house and mow his lawn with my teeth if I have to.

... and which lawn, is up to you?

 

[cynical]

It sounds good and it is, but you've gotta factor in the debuts of
2E- 27yo from Carlton
Crameri- Gone
Black - Gone
Kelly- Gone either this year or next.
Parsons - Not looking good
Buzza- Not looking good at all.


But yeah still some awesome ones in Stewart and Henry who almost look certain to be good long servants of the club.
Possibly Savrat and Parfitt too.

Simpson not AFL standard
Zuthrie not ready
Abbott - mature age ruck not really a kid
JJ not ready, probably not AFL standard

Henry, Stewart, Kelly, Parfitt, Sav, Narkle, Cunico all a tick

Stewart and Kelly are mature agers so a shorter shelf life (if kelly stays)

that leaves Parfitt, and Henry as the kids who have been given games and have shown a bit over the last 2 years (unfortunate injuries to Sav and Narkle)

Fogarty also got games but questionable ability, not really ready for AFL yet
Cunico probably should have got more games

kind of a different story to the 15 debuts over 2 years, half of those are junk picks and most didnt get a great deal of games

 

[iameviljez]

Simpson not AFL standard
Zuthrie not ready
Abbott - mature age ruck not really a kid
JJ not ready, probably not AFL standard

Henry, Stewart, Kelly, Parfitt, Sav, Narkle, Cunico all a tick

Stewart and Kelly are mature agers so a shorter shelf life (if kelly stays)

that leaves Parfitt, and Henry as the kids who have been given games and have shown a bit over the last 2 years (unfortunate injuries to Sav and Narkle)

Fogarty also got games but questionable ability, not really ready for AFL yet
Cunico probably should have got more games

kind of a different story to the 15 debuts over 2 years, half of those are junk picks and most didnt get a great deal of games

Yeah, it's chucking an awful lot of darts at a board and hoping a few stick. Most of them really don't fill me with confidence, to be honest.

 

[Max Milburn]

It sounds good and it is, but you've gotta factor in the debuts of
2E- 27yo from Carlton
Crameri- Gone
Black - Gone
Kelly- Gone either this year or next.
Parsons - Not looking good
Buzza- Not looking good at all.


But yeah still some awesome ones in Stewart and Henry who almost look certain to be good long servants of the club.
Possibly Savrat and Parfitt too.

Not 100% sure, but it says AFL debut. Surely that doesn't include Black, Crameri or Tuohy as they made their AFL debut with other clubs.

Edit: already mentioned by Landgraft above.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Simpson not AFL standard
Zuthrie not ready
Abbott - mature age ruck not really a kid
JJ not ready, probably not AFL standard

Henry, Stewart, Kelly, Parfitt, Sav, Narkle, Cunico all a tick

Stewart and Kelly are mature agers so a shorter shelf life (if kelly stays)

that leaves Parfitt, and Henry as the kids who have been given games and have shown a bit over the last 2 years (unfortunate injuries to Sav and Narkle)

Fogarty also got games but questionable ability, not really ready for AFL yet
Cunico probably should have got more games

kind of a different story to the 15 debuts over 2 years, half of those are junk picks and most didnt get a great deal of games

That's a fair assessment. Hopefully SavRat makes it. Would be good value for pick.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Not 100% sure, but it says AFL debut. Surely that doesn't include Black, Crameri or Tuohy as they made their AFL debut with other clubs.

Yeah I was wrong. Was AFL debut.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Yeah, it's chucking an awful lot of darts at a board and hoping a few stick. Most of them really don't fill me with confidence, to be honest.

I don't really mind it if it saves pumping 100+ games into a player like Murdoch.

 

[cynical]

I don't really mind it if it saves pumping 100+ games into a player like Murdoch.

would rather give guys an extended run when they are ready instead of a few games cos no one else is available

most of our kids end up playing forward pocket for a few games until they get dumped

 

[Peter Wallis]

I'm leaning slightly toward him leaving this year.
Not that I know anything, just the feeling I get.

If he indicates to the club that he won't sign beyond 2019 then now is the time to cash in on him because if they wait until next year they will not be in as strong a bargaining position.
If Freo lose Neale then I have no doubt they will go all out for Kelly & throw either pick 5 or 6 as a carrot which would be a fair return imo. However if Kelly wants to stay long term then a trade should not be entertained.
Dahlhaus will be handy as a free agent & a pick in the 50's for Rohan might be good value as well but some top end talent in this draft would have to be a priority you would think.

 

[Max Milburn]

would rather give guys an extended run when they are ready instead of a few games cos no one else is available

most of our kids end up playing forward pocket for a few games until they get dumped

Jack Henry, Mark O'Connor, Esava Ratagolea, Tim Kelly and Brandon Parfitt say "Hi!".

 

[steady2]

If he indicates to the club that he won't sign beyond 2019 then now is the time to cash in on him because if they wait until next year they will not be in as strong a bargaining position.
If Freo lose Neale then I have no doubt they will go all out for Kelly & throw either pick 5 or 6 as a carrot which would be a fair return imo. However if Kelly wants to stay long term then a trade should not be entertained.
Dahlhaus will be handy as a free agent & a pick in the 50's for Rohan might be good value as well but some top end talent in this draft would have to be a priority you would think.

That is laughable. Kelly won the best first year player awarded by his peers in the AFL by such a massive margin that it was a one-horse race. He will finish in the top 5 in the B&F. If he has room for improvement he will be an A-grade elite player with 200 games in front of him. Nothing short of a Darling, Kennedy or Gaff would be acceptable and those are all much older, I'd take Gaff and a first round draft pick.