List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2020

[CFC2010]

So the Club think he is not the Player he was Once so using him as a Tagger/Run With Player then?

Not sure about that Dave.

Cripps smashed him this year and I just don’t like him being a negating type of player.

If they don’t think he is good enough on ball find another position for him in 2020.

 

[sr36]

The reason IMO he isn’t the first possession player is all on our coaching panel.

I think they tried to make him neutralize the oppositions best on baller a priority this year and I don’t think that it worked often enough.

Don’t get me started on Steele in 2019........I already killed Bambi once not many here took it well.

I do get annoyed when shots are fired at Bambi. I reckon the marksmen have unrealistic expectations. He is what he is, he's become too good to be ignored by the opposition, but not good enough to break free from heavy attention. I think he'll be viewed more positively again once he regresses a bit and thus stops receiving as much opposition attention.

 

[Knightmare]

I'm curious about the call that he's improved as a captain. I really struggle to understand how any of us outsiders really have any idea about a player's leadership. Do we base it on the old fashioned Wayne Carey puffed chest great leader theory or the modern lots of pointing and directing great leader theory or is there another way we can see it?

When I assess leadership value I look at the development of the players around them, cohesion of the playing group and improvement of the list.

A large part of the club's turnaround has been credited to Buckley for his change of attitude towards his assistants and giving them greater responsibility and opportunity, and my sense is Pendlebury has also been given that greater opportunity to have more say and input to assist the group in a greater capacity.

The reason IMO he isn’t the first possession player is all on our coaching panel.

I think they tried to make him neutralize the oppositions best on baller a priority this year and I don’t think that it worked often enough.

Don’t get me started on Steele in 2019........I already killed Bambi once not many here took it well.

Pendlebury's role has been of a more defensive focus for a few years now. This year isn't the first.

 

[CFC2010]

Pendlebury's role has been of a more defensive focus for a few years now. This year isn't the first.

I understand that and he made AA once again......I just don’t think he needs to sacrifice his game in 2020......enough of this defensive mindset by our coaching panel.

Just let him loose in 2020 he is experienced enough to understand the flow of a game and alter his game accordingly.

 

[sr36]

When I assess leadership value I look at the development of the players around them, cohesion of the playing group and improvement of the list.

A large part of the club's turnaround has been credited to Buckley for his change of attitude towards his assistants and giving them greater responsibility and opportunity, and my sense is Pendlebury has also been given that greater opportunity to have more say and input to assist the group in a greater capacity.

These things are just guesses though. When we've got a head coach, 5 or so assistants, a couple of development coaches, a captain, and 5 other players in the leadership group, unless you're on the inside, god knows which people are significant in trems of encouraging team cohesion and player development. Even from the inside, you'd only really be talking from your own perspective.

We can use these things to point to the leadership group as a whole, but I struggle with the idea of pointing to particular individuals within it.

 

[CFC2010]

I do get annoyed when shots are fired at Bambi. I reckon the marksmen have unrealistic expectations. He is what he is, he's become too good to be ignored by the opposition, but not good enough to break free from heavy attention. I think he'll be viewed more positively again once he regresses a bit and thus stops receiving as much opposition attention.

I always mark the players who have more ability harder then the players that don’t.

I am demanding a massive 2020 from Steele........and I expect him to follow through.

 

[Magpie Ink]

We really f’ed it by picking JDG over Wright. There'd be no salary cap crisis if our recruiters werw sensible and targeted mediocrity.

Not to mention passing on taking Stewart as a Father/Son selection.

Talk about amateur hour

 

[Robroy22]

Not sure about that Dave.

Cripps smashed him this year and I just don’t like him being a negating type of player.

If they don’t think he is good enough on ball find another position for him in 2020.

There are a few in the same boat and Pendles shouldn't be above having these demands made of him as well. I suggested in my "Best 22 for 2020" that Pendles should start at half back ala Shaun Burgoyne, Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge at various times with the Hawks. The Hawks often start Burgoyne behind the ball and then release him into the action WHEN required (often at the beginning of Q4). In this way he gets plenty of the ball off half back and cuts oppo teams up with his kicking and decision making. Pendles has all the tools to do this.

Others I'd like to challenge to play differently "for the team" include Sidey starting (and playing predominantly) FORWARD. He's one of our best crumbers, is slick around goals and deceptively strong in the contest. He could become the forward line general and Pendles the back line's....they are our leaders after all. I'd also like to have Tom Phillips play more forward line minutes as well. He and Sidey are ball magnets and they both don't miss many shots on goal. Sidey and TP could alternate between wing and forward easily, they both have the ability to be on the move for 90% of every game.

Of course having Pendles and Sidey relocating the midfield would require more midfield minutes from blokes like JDG, Sier, Crisp, Beams and JT ... but why not? They all offer different talents so we'd be mad not to try and utilise them.

 

[sr36]

I always mark the players who have more ability harder then the players that don’t.

I am demanding a massive 2020 from Steele........and I expect him to follow through.

I love him, but think you'll be disappointed.

He's too good to not play a run with on, but he doesn't have the skillset to break a tag, particularly as there are now more blokes in the AFL who can run with him.
He'll generally have more impact than the blokes who play run with on him - judge him on that, but teams aren't going to give him free rein like they did for most of 2018, so hes not going to be as influential as he was. Hes a bloody good player who will win his wing most weeks, but hes nowhere near guys like Dusty, Cripps and Dangerfield, who can dominate regardless of who stands them.

 

[Nuwanda]

With the Quaynor part. Draft picks are heavily traded. Most of them dont end up at the club they began at. Many of them are traded more than once. Regardless of whether we were going to take it to the draft, we still owned it and sold it for half of Beams. It doesn't become less valuable just because we were in an advantageous position with Quaynor.

Yep and I can’t believe people don’t understand that.
The Lions would look at it as getting 2 first round picks. Beams was going nowhere but to Collingwood. Why not our 2018 1st and 2019 2nd? Beams was not in a great position mentally and the Lions were aware of that. I believe they would have showed some compassion to help him and would have taken a lesser offer.
Regardless of Beams, in the past we haven’t been as created as what we could be. I think Ned Guy is bringing more of a strategic element to the recruiting division.

 

[Nuwanda]

The relative drop-off from Pendlebury this year has been in his work at stoppages. He's no longer the same first possession winner he once was. He has been gradually regressing for a few years now. Not the fall off a cliff we saw from Sidebottom this year, or Beams early in the season. But he's not the player he was in 2011. Still Pendlebury is a consistent mid and still one of the Pies best 5 players. Has improved as a captain in recent years. So he's still of great value and someone the club should want around for as many years as possible. But on individual play, he is no longer a best 15 in the game mid, and since 2013 has slowly slid down that conversation, though still being around that 20 point as a 300+ gamer only speaks to his great consistency, durability and the continued quality of his play.

Knightmare,
I respect the work and assessment you put into the kids.
But now I’ll ask you about contracts. Given your views on Pendles and how he isn’t the player he was, what do you think is reasonable to pay him in 2021? I assume he is on $1m pa at the moment and my view is given his age and the big contracts he has had, that the most we should offer him is $700k pa (less if he wasn’t captain).
Your thoughts?

 

[Knightmare]

Knightmare,
I respect the work and assessment you put into the kids.
But now I’ll ask you about contracts. Given your views on Pendles and how he isn’t the player he was, what do you think is reasonable to pay him in 2021? I assume he is on $1m pa at the moment and my view is given his age and the big contracts he has had, that the most we should offer him is $700k pa (less if he wasn’t captain).
Your thoughts?

It's a shame in the AFL there isn't a complete list with what every player is on how much per year as there are in other sporting codes as it would make answering these kinds of questions a lot easier.

Pendlebury I don't consider worth nearly $1m per year at this age/stage. $750k probably is around the right mark if he replicates his 2019 play and doesn't sustain any concerning injuries. If he drops off, then less.

Talking to Pendlebury about a possible discount will be important as the club's priorities will be to retain Grundy/De Goey/Moore who all will be expecting raises.

 

[sr36]

I understand that and he made AA once again......I just don’t think he needs to sacrifice his game in 2020......enough of this defensive mindset by our coaching panel.

Just let him loose in 2020 he is experienced enough to understand the flow of a game and alter his game accordingly.

I want him working in tandem with JDG. JDG takes the centre bounes and moves forward. Pendles out of the centre bounces moves into the middle to replace JDG whose moved forward. Pendles power is a bit below what you'd like in the centre square, but hes still the best linking mid in the game.

 

[PieWithHorse]

I wouldn't trade up to get Gould. I like him, but I don't feel any urgency to get him.

Riccardi/Lowson/Walker I'd endorse. Riccardi/Lowson I'd like to get with the club's second and third picks. With the first pick, coming in the second round, I'd be interested to see what value can be had.



Prime Pendlebury in my view after Ablett was outright the second best midfielder. I no longer view Pendlebury as a top-15 mid in the comp.

Treloar I view as the club's number one mid, but not by much ahead of Pendlebury. He is losing some pace, hopefully he can get that back, but his kicking has never been great and that's what keeps him out of that top-10 conversation. I would have been fine with moving Treloar in a trade to secure Lukosius and I'd be looking at some kind of three way trade to do the same again next year if there is some third part looking for a high level mid to plug in, in the hope of contending.

Sidebottom was ineffective this year. 2018 he was elite, this year he was productive but looked like just another component and was far from a star.

My problem with Collingwood's midfield is there is no star first possession winner. That Cripps needs to be found and added. Even beyond that, I would have loved a Jack Martin added as someone who has the attributes to play the circa 2011 Dale Thomas game as that gut running, pressure specialist who can fly.

Thanks Knightmare, insightful as always!

Out of interest, is there anyone you would trade up for?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I know the eyes can deceive it when I watch Scott okay live I see him being a great general.

leads, directs, plays well.
great captain from observing live.

 

[CFC2010]

I want him working in tandem with JDG. JDG takes the centre bounes and moves forward. Pendles out of the centre bounces moves into the middle to replace JDG whose moved forward. Pendles power is a bit below what you'd like in the centre square, but hes still the best linking mid in the game.

We definitely need to mix it up.

A full year from JDG would be tantalizing.

 

[CFC2010]

It's a shame in the AFL there isn't a complete list with what every player is on how much per year as there are in other sporting codes as it would make answering these kinds of questions a lot easier.

Pendlebury I don't consider worth nearly $1m per year at this age/stage. $750k probably is around the right mark if he replicates his 2019 play and doesn't sustain any concerning injuries. If he drops off, then less.

Talking to Pendlebury about a possible discount will be important as the club's priorities will be to retain Grundy/De Goey/Moore who all will be expecting raises.

Another bigfooty Capologist has entered the building.

Insert a shakes his head gif........

 

[jsdsgn]

I can’t believe people still mention the Beams trade as a disaster ——without understanding the mechanics.

We would have had to use our first pick on Isaac Quaynor had we kept it meaning it would have gone to waste.

Effectively Beams really only cost us our first pick this year of which will most likely be almost pick 20 when it’s done.
Fremantle got pick 23 as compo for Mayne——let this sink in.

Beams’ Year was ruined with that hip injury.
At the end of 2020 we will know where we stand on the Beams deal but to say it’s failed without taking into account that we still ended up having essentially pick 11 in the same draft and pick 29...whilst adding a player who was coming off a brilliant season 2018—we’d do that deal again.

I thought I was the only one who wasn't stupid

 

[Knightmare]

Thanks Knightmare, insightful as always!

Out of interest, is there anyone you would trade up for?

Brodie Kemp if he made it into the late teens I'd be fine with for next year's first. Otherwise not fussed.

If anything I'd be more open to moving down if it means meaningful improvements in picks/points next year.

 

[jsdsgn]

Who cares if Pendles isn't at his best? He can't carry us forever! I think he deserves to take a back seat and not have to rock up every week and carry us. Time for our next gen of mids to take over. Pendles still has a couple years of elite football left though, but he doesn't have to be winning brownlows people.

 

[Knightmare]

I can’t believe people still mention the Beams trade as a disaster ——without understanding the mechanics.

We would have had to use our first pick on Isaac Quaynor had we kept it meaning it would have gone to waste.

Effectively Beams really only cost us our first pick this year of which will most likely be almost pick 20 when it’s done.
Fremantle got pick 23 as compo for Mayne——let this sink in.

Beams’ Year was ruined with that hip injury.
At the end of 2020 we will know where we stand on the Beams deal but to say it’s failed without taking into account that we still ended up having essentially pick 11 in the same draft and pick 29...whilst adding a player who was coming off a brilliant season 2018—we’d do that deal again.

It depends firstly whether in support of signing the clubs NGA/father-son choices (I wasn't) and the other important idea is even if committed to Quaynor/etc is by spending that first round selection on Beams, the concept of opportunity cost comes into the equation.

Had Collingwood not traded last year's first rounder in the Beams deal, a trade for a 2019 first rounder may have been possible, the club could have moved that first rounder back for a combination of later picks and a 2019 first rounder, or other players could have been approached.

 

[sr36]

I know the eyes can deceive it when I watch Scott okay live I see him being a great general.

leads, directs, plays well.
great captain from observing live.

He certainly plays well and is dedicated to leadership. But in terms of directing and pointing, is he doing a good job of helping to organise the team? or is he micromanaging his teammates? Are they all muttering under their breath - "* off Pendles, I know what I'm doing." like most of us do when a boss stands around giving too many obvious instructions?

My point is that's a judgement that can only be made from within the group. The rest of us are just guessing.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

He certainly plays well and is dedicated to leadership. But in terms of directing and pointing, is he doing a good job of helping to organise the team? or is he micromanaging his teammates? Are they all muttering under their breath - "fu** off Pendles, I know what I'm doing." like most of us do when a boss stands around giving too many obvious instructions?

My point is that's a judgement that can only be made from within the group. The rest of us are just guessing.

You make strong points.

from only my viewing live (I take binoculars, use them at times especially for set ups, old racing habit) he directs without bossiness. Looks like high respect and the senior players all talk together. Beams also was doing some directing at times.

looks amicable across the board.

Chris mayne also is assisting on field as is (by looks) very respected.

 

[sr36]

You make strong points.

from only my viewing live (I take binoculars, use them at times especially for set ups, old racing habit) he directs without bossiness. Looks like high respect and the senior players all talk together. Beams also was doing some directing at times.

looks amicable across the board.

Chris mayne also is assisting on field as is (by looks) very respected.

He probably is an excellent general, but I've amicably followed some pretty s**t instructions from my bosses over the years, so even amicable doesn't cut it for me. To me, knowledge of who's a good leader and who isn't (other than leading by example) is beyond our ability to know. It belongs in the same area as salary cap - rumours and guesses. I may start going with a twist of the CFC2010 mantra. Bloody leadologists.

 

[Thatsmyname]

Another bigfooty Capologist has entered the building.

Insert a shakes his head gif........

Another Gridiron term has entered the AFL vernacular