List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2020

[sr36]

Too fumbly. Would kill us.

My theory is that his fumbling is because he tries to hit every ball at 100 miles an hour, only the most elite ball handlers can do that consistently, Varcoe isn't one of them. As a defender, he won't be flashing through packs trying to take it at top speed.

 

[sr36]

Scout was misleading re Shaz

Not according to the smoke. Just sounds like there were no takers.

 

[Gone Critical]

Yep, I may have emptied a mayo jar to make my point, I still like my main point though.

My view is basically summed up with the idea that the Cats could have afforded to lose Mooney, but not Stevie J.

I liked your point.

 

[gerryg400]

And we were forced to dump Aush’s contract to fit Darcy Cameron in. Shows where we are at

If you think that’s what happened, then I’m afraid it more shows where you’re at.

 

[DaVe86]

The list has been mismanaged, look at WCE they were able to add Kelly the year before Richmond had the ability to add Lynch. If we are truly as tight as a nuns campaigner well then we are over paying blokes.

We've made a GF and a prelim over the last 2 years. To me, a list managers role is to create a list that can compete for a premiership. It is up to the coaches and the players themselves to actually win in.

To be in the position we are, it means we have a good list which for 2 years in a row has got within a touching distance of ultimate success. So I can't see how that is mis-management.

I agree there have been a few failed deals, but that was largely before Ned Guys time. Overall, I still have us in a position to compete in 2021 again, which is again reflective of the fact we have a good list.

I sincerely hope though we can trade back into the first round this year and nail our draft pick, and then get Reef next year through having enough points. I think if we do those 2 things, it has overall been a solid off-season because we've kept all our guns and still brought in young talent.

 

[DaVe86]

On JDG, I see both sides of the argument. Undoubtedly he has underperformed statistically based on what his wage is, and also what he is projected to be. That's both on and off-field, considering he has not had a pre-season for 3 years, 2 of which were his own fault.

But in the big matches, he has stood up. He was electric last year against Richmond in the prelim and also one of our best in the Granny and he nearly won it for us. Simply put, if he played the prelim this year, we make another Granny.

So whilst I agree that he isn't producing what we want, I also don't see us winning a flag without him.

I also compare him to Dusty, and I reckon his best footy came at the age of 25-26. He was too unfit to play midfield before that and used to skulk off half back a bit or come in and out of matches as a forward. He had much better stats than De Goey, but his true break out came around the age De Goey is just coming into now. So I think the best is still to come, especially if he can actually have a pre-season this time!

If we can get him to be a 50/50 midfield forward then that's the aim I reckon.

 

[loki04]

Considering how aggressively Hawthorn have attacked the trade period whilst ignoring the draft, internally they'd be disappointed with where they are at or at least should be. When you spend big for guys like O'Meara, Mitchell, Wingard etc you should be making finals at the very least.

Im not sure they would be they as a club are trending up, it takes time for even senior players to gel and learn the game plan as well as each others nuances.

It's definitely an interesting way to go about a rebuild and will be watched from all angles to see how successful it is or if it saves any time in the rebuild process. Some of theses trades by the way have cost them sweet fa.

Omeara Pick 10 plus future 2nd rounder (attached to Carlton via picks 48,66 and 70 LOL wtf SoS giveaway picks)
Mitchell pick 14 and late pick swaps 52 for 57.
Scully for future 4th round pick.
Wingard 15, 35 and Burton.
Patton for future 4th round pick.

Really they haven't given up a whole lot lowest pick they gave up was pick 10 and even then they traded for it. All the players are mid 20s with years left in the system so not mortgaging the future nor have they really used many low end picks to do it.

Haven't given up any sub 10 picks and no 2x firsts trades.

 

[NeverWobble]

Super disappointed with our lack of aggressiveness in offloading players, aside from Aish.

Grundy, JDG and Moore are all holding out until late next year. All 3 are holding out for big money and know huge offers will come in from other clubs.

I think we’ve mismanaged our cap badly. We had no money available to get even a half decent key forward in this year, and next season we’ll be forced to overpay for each of our 3 stars. Grundy in particular - if it’s 7 years he wants at $1m per year then signing him up would be an enormous mistake, because as good as he is we can’t maximize his dominance and we still don’t have a competent key forward.

Personally I hope we let Grundy leave and use the cap space on a key forward, because we sure as s**t can’t win one a flag without one. Nor can we construct a flag-contending list if we overpay the 3 players as it looks like we will.

By my count on the list management thread we have 21 players coming off contract in 2020.
Probably only 10 of those could be considered certain starters in our best 22.
So I don’t see why we need to panic dump this year.
Allowing 12 more months to plan how we manage things seems to be a reasonable idea to me.
Another season to assess developing players seems appropriate too.
As far as key forwards go, every team has one so perhaps other factors e.g. group dynamics, fast efficient delivery inside 50, continuity of tactics and playing group and a little creativity are a bit underestimated.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Daniher unhappy in an Essendon jumper makes me happy.

Carlton missing out of Papley because of this makes me happy

 

[loki04]

In what world are we having more issues with retaining players than Richmond?

Players leaving Richmond for other clubs, last two years: Dan Butler, Brandon Ellis, Reece Conca, Anthony Miles, Corey Ellis, Sam Lloyd, Tyson Stengle, and expect a few more like McIntosh to shake loose shortly.

Players leaving Collingwood, last two years: Aish.

This narrative that we’re the only club who loses fringe players due to cap concerns is completely insane. If anything, we’ve done remarkably well to keep the list as intact as it currently is.

Yes I was being hyperbolic with Richmond.

 

[loki04]

in this case then you would think there will be more and deeper cuts coming.

They've just won their 2nd flag in 3 years anything that happens from here is a bonus, and if the list falls apart over the next 1-3 years well that's also within the realms of reason of teams who have a dominant period.

 

[jackcass]

My money is on Travis being moved to defence and being a best 22 back pocket for us.

I'd rather we put time into IQ, Noble and Appleby. Even in a forward role, I'd prefer to see Bosenavulagi given opportunity ahead of Varcoe. I don't mind that we've extended Trav for a year but ultimately I'm hoping we see little of him at senior level in 2020.

 

[loki04]

I'd rather we put time into IQ, Noble and Appleby. Even in a forward role, I'd prefer to see Bosenavulagi given opportunity ahead of Varcoe. I don't mind that we've extended Trav for a year but ultimately I'm hoping we see little of him at senior level in 2020.

Read today on EbnW that Pies are looking at potentially re drafting Ramsey.

 

[CFC2010]

Read today on EbnW that Pies are looking at potentially re drafting Ramsey.

 

[jackcass]

And we were forced to dump Aush’s contract to fit Darcy Cameron in. Shows where we are at

Seriously? That's what you've concluded?

 

[mwhop]

Our whole team is a ferrari, but it has a substandard spark plug (dominant inside mid to set the whole chain reaction going/ good clearance set up). Unless we brought in a great inside mid, i dont think we especially need any other players.
The most important thing for us imho is that brayden sier gets his act together, and/or we get a better stoppage/ruck coach

 

[sr36]

Im not sure they would be they as a club are trending up, it takes time for even senior players to gel and learn the game plan as well as each others nuances.

It's definitely an interesting way to go about a rebuild and will be watched from all angles to see how successful it is or if it saves any time in the rebuild process. Some of theses trades by the way have cost them sweet fa.

Omeara Pick 10 plus future 2nd rounder (attached to Carlton via picks 48,66 and 70 LOL wtf SoS giveaway picks)
Mitchell pick 14 and late pick swaps 52 for 57.
Scully for future 4th round pick.
Wingard 15, 35 and Burton.
Patton for future 4th round pick.

Really they haven't given up a whole lot lowest pick they gave up was pick 10 and even then they traded for it. All the players are mid 20s with years left in the system so not mortgaging the future nor have they really used many low end picks to do it.

Haven't given up any sub 10 picks and no 2x firsts trades.

No, but they've given up the vast majority of sub 50 draft picks. They're putting themselves in a position where they are less likely to unearth young talent. By bringing in these cheap older who are salary dumps, they're also tying up salary cap and making themselves less likely to be able to poach longer term gun exciting youngsters. That's before you go into the risk associated with the injuries that these salary dumps are carrying. To me, they're not succeeding in putting together a list that will challenge and in the process of trying, they're giving themselves little chance of unearthing future guns. I think it's a strategy that will keep them in the middle of the ladder for a while, before sending them to the bottom in a few years time.

 

[jackcass]

in this case then you would think there will be more and deeper cuts coming.

I think rather than more cuts, they'll be looking at how long some of their older core go on. Houli, Edwards, Riewoldt, Rance types who'd likely be on big $$$'s but north of 30.

 

[jackcass]

Read today on EbnW that Pies are looking at potentially re drafting Ramsey.

I wouldn't mind that. Was disappointed he got the flick. What's he done since he left? That's determine the merit of the move. Was playing WAFL I think.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Our whole team is a ferrari, but it has a substandard spark plug (dominant inside mid to set the whole chain reaction going/ good clearance set up). Unless we brought in a great inside mid, i dont think we especially need any other players.
The most important thing for us imho is that brayden sier gets his act together, and/or we get a better stoppage/ruck coach

The most important thing is that De Goey has an uninterrupted preseason and plays predominantly midfield next season.

Followed by Sier and Beams hitting their straps.

 

[mwhop]

The most important thing is that De Goey has an uninterrupted preseason and plays predominantly midfield next season.

Followed by Sier and Beams hitting their straps.

I agree this is where the improvement will come.
Our forwards are all reliable (even cox and thomas belive it or not), its the ball movement from the midfield that holds them back or not.

 

[jimmy35]

The most important thing is that De Goey has an uninterrupted preseason and plays predominantly midfield next season.

Followed by Sier and Beams hitting their straps.

Then we’ve got a midfield.

 

[Boogy]

Wrong draft bud

Yeah 2021...forever!

 

[swoop42]

In what world are we having more issues with retaining players than Richmond?

Players leaving Richmond for other clubs, last two years: Dan Butler, Brandon Ellis, Reece Conca, Anthony Miles, Corey Ellis, Sam Lloyd, Tyson Stengle, and expect a few more like McIntosh to shake loose shortly.

Players leaving Collingwood, last two years: Aish.

This narrative that we’re the only club who loses fringe players due to cap concerns is completely insane. If anything, we’ve done remarkably well to keep the list as intact as it currently is.

And that might well be the reason why our salary cap is now considered tight.

Not enough hard decisions have been made.

None of those Richmond players you have listed are grade A and yet by moving them on Richmond could afford to add Lynch smack bang in their Premiership window.

We on the other hand are seemingly going to have fight tooth and nail to retain 3 of our very best players with little room it appears to go after a big fish like a Lynch at the end of 2020.

Why is that I wonder?

Offering silly money for the likes of an aging Wells, being to optimistic in signing Crocker for two years when one could have sufficed, keeping the faith in Broomhead a player taken in the same draft as Grundy, retaining a loyal servant in Goldsack who then failed to be selected despite injuries.

Those are just a few examples and for mine if we retain players like Varcoe after he was dropped 4 times this year, Dunn after 2 knee reconstructions then we're letting emotion get in the way and I'd rather find even cheaper alternatives by throwing a lifeline to some indigenous talent even if they come with some extra baggage attached like a Stack or Pickett or look to award well performed state league levels prospects.

At least with these players they come with untapped potential and the prospect of being still with us in 5 years time.

 

[jackcass]

No, but they've given up the vast majority of sub 50 draft picks. They're putting themselves in a position where they are less likely to unearth young talent. By bringing in these cheap older who are salary dumps, they're also tying up salary cap and making themselves less likely to be able to poach longer term gun exciting youngsters. That's before you go into the risk associated with the injuries that these salary dumps are carrying. To me, they're not succeeding in putting together a list that will challenge and in the process of trying, they're giving themselves little chance of unearthing future guns. I think it's a strategy that will keep them in the middle of the ladder for a while, before sending them to the bottom in a few years time.

Agree, they're relying on their late speculative picks coming good rather than invest in that youth. Their last 2 reasonable picks (Burton P19 2015 & Lovell P22 the same year) aren't even at the club anymore. Worpel (P45 2017), Hardwick (P44 2015), Howe (P31 2014) and Morrison (P74 2016) have shown a bit. Worpel and Hardwick in particular look very promising. Lewis started showing a bit this year. That still leaves Koschitzke, Walker, Moore, Ross, Miles, and Pitonet (just traded) on the other side of the ledger.