MMA-UFC UFC 211

[didaksrightfoot]

Everyone was saying that JDS showed improvements with keeping away from the fence in the Rothwell fight. Today he went back to making the same mistake that he always made before then. I was hoping he would win and he gave himself next to no chance. I'm always underrating Miocic. He capitalises on mistakes really well. Werdum ran at him and he flattened him. JDS kept backing into the cage and he dropped him. Great job by him and I think his next defence if successful would break the HW title defence record.

I liked Chael Sonnen's comments on Stipe - he is not the best at any particularly thing but just does the simple things well and doesnt really have a weakness. Doesn't look like he should be this good - but just is, and will continue to be very difficult to beat. I think a healthy Cain is still the best in the division - but everyone else has a weakness.

Masterful performance by Jedrzejczyk. I thought Andrade would give her heaps of problems, especially early, but she didn't really give Jedrzejczyk any issues. Jedrzejczyk did a great job early at never planting and throwing too many shots at Andrade before moving. Later on she was willing to throw in combination when she knew what to expect from Andrade. Andrade was really tough, she took some heavy shots, but in the end she didn't have much offensively to trouble the champ.

Jedrzejczyk makes good challengers look bad. Kowalkiewicz was less willing to throw than she usually is against Jedrzejczyk. Kowalkiewicz threw more strikes in her 3 round fights against Namajunas and Clark than she did in the title fight. She hurt Jedrzejczyk but outside of that she accomplished very little in that fight. I saw some people in the lead up to today's fight saying how it was a really close fight. It wasn't at all. Andrade was way less willing to throw today than she has been in her previous fights too.

I really disagree.
On the one hand you say that JJ did a great job, and on the other you say Andrade was less willing to throw. I think Andrade tried everything she could - JJ was clearly the better fighter. Her ground games seems to have improved a lot since Claudia as well (or Andrade's isn't as good as we've seen previously) because JJ just had the strength and technique to get back up after each take down attempt. And JJ's technical striking is incredible - no single strike has knockout power, but she just repeatedly will find ways to hit you and over time that will slow you down - it has happened in each of her last 3 fights. Andrade tried, and got a fair share of damage in on her strikes - but with the energy it took for 1 charge and flurry, JJ would hit you with 10x as many shots.

What the last 3 fights have shown is that JJ is beatable - she can be hit, and she can be taken down - but it's gonna take someone with significant power to do it... otherwise she will just gradually beat you up over 5 rounds. Claudia is probably the best chance for a submission, but she definitely gave her best shot last time, and will be due a rematch, but I don't think anyone in this division has the Nunes like hitting power that could really stop her.

I'm so glad Maia won. He deserved the title shot already. Clearly the UFC don't want to give him a title shot but surely now they have to. Today he wasn't as dominant so maybe that hurts their ability to promote him as a challenger. I don't know how you couldn't do something to promote a guy who was beating top WWs, by submission or dominant decision, and basically not getting hit. I guess most fans just want to see people strike. Part of it is that a lot of fans are just naturally dumbasses. Part of it is that the UFC brass would prefer standing and banging, so that's what the fans want and expect too.

It was a close fight. I'd have to watch it again but I thought Maia did enough to win 2 rounds, maybe even all 3. I thought the 3rd was clearly Maia's because Masvidal didn't get enough done standing before getting taken down. The 2nd was close because Masvidal did some good work standing before getting taken down. The 1st round was all Maia's before Masvidal got on top and landed some good strikes. I know scoring doesn't work like this, but Maia won the only very clear round so I like seeing that guy win the decision. Masvidal winning would be based on barely winning two rounds and then losing one round very clearly.

Another split decision loss for Masvidal. He hasn't clearly lost a fight for a long time. Both guys are right at the top of the WW division. Maia should face Woodley next. I'd like to see Masvidal fight Thompson too.

Agree with those sentiments. Masvidal clearly had his moments but didn't do enough damage at those times and Maia just had control for enough of the fight to get the win - split decision is fair.

I should have stuck with my initial thoughts on Edgar/Rodriguez. Of course it was too soon for Rodriguez. I don't know why but I ended up coming to the conclusion that Rodriguez would land kicks and outpoint Edgar before either winning a decision or finishing Edgar. Not even close. Edgar closed the distance, landed some good punches in part because Rodriguez's boxing is still bad. Edgar took him down and just mauled him. Glad it got stopped when it did because there's no need for that eye to take more damage.

It would've been great for Rodriguez to get the upset - but in hindsight this fight probably went how it would go 99 times out of 100. Yair still has improvements to make, but will surely have his time near or at the top in the not too distant future.
But Frankie just showed what we already know - that he is better than any featherweight not named Jose Aldo (+/- Connor - wherever he fits into the picture). Frankie will be praying Holloway beats Aldo - coz I reckon Frankie would then win that fight to get the belt... but against Aldo - I just don't see him getting over the line. It will be that same old story - 95% as good as Aldo, but just without that extra 5% to beat him - just better than everybody else. (similar to Faber-Cruz)

 

[BradWCE]

Rewatched Maia/Masvidal. Not sure how you give Masvidal two rounds. I thought round 3 was Maia's clearest round after watching it yesterday. Now I think round 1 was Maia's best round.

Round 1:
Maia took Masvidal's back 1:26 into the round (3.34 left in round) - kept it for 3.10
Masvidal got on top with 0.24 left - landed some good strikes
----Clear Maia Round----

No way Masvidal should win the round based on some good strikes in the last 24 seconds. Maia had his back with both hooks in or a body triangle for more than half the round.

Round 2:
Masvidal landed a lot of good strikes for the first ~2 minutes of the round
Grappling starts about 2 minutes into round - Masvidal on top for ~22 seconds and lands 2 good strikes
Maia gets on top with 2.38 left in round (2.22 into the round)
Maia stayed on top for the rest of the round. Couldn't get both hooks in, so less dominant on the mat.
Maia landed a few good punches at the end of the round with one hook in
----Very close round, good case for Masvidal winning 10-9----

Round 2 was Masvidal's I think. He landed quite a lot of good strikes before Maia got the fight to the mat. Maia was unable to get into a really dominant position on Masvidal's back this round. I'd say Masvidal's work on the feet was worth more than Maia's because Maia couldn't get into a great position this round.

Round 3:
Masvidal landed some good strikes in the first ~2.30 minutes
Maia gets on top with 2.28 left in the round (2.32 into the round)
Maia got back mount with a body triangle with 1.38 left in the round (3.22 into the round)
Maia kept back mount for the rest of the round
----Clear Maia round, bit less clear than the 1st round----

Round 3 has to be Maia's I think. Masvidal's strikes weren't as good this round. Maia got into a very dominant position which he didn't do in round 2. When you have someone in back mount with a body triangle locked in for 1.38 the other fighter has to be pretty dominant on the feet to win the round imo.

Ludicrous to suggest that Masvidal was robbed. Reducing what Maia did down to "he only had control" doesn't really reflect what he did. That argument works better in a fight like Alvarez/Pettis. Alvarez's control was against the fence and in Pettis's guard/half guard. Maia's control was in the most dominant position in an MMA fight; back mount with both hooks in or a body triangle locked in. He was always looking to finish but Masvidal did really well defensively. You're going to have to do something really impressive with strikes to counteract that dominance Maia had on the mat. Pretty clear that Maia won this fight at worst 2 rounds to 1 imo.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Rewatched Maia/Masvidal. Not sure how you give Masvidal two rounds. I thought round 3 was Maia's clearest round after watching it yesterday. Now I think round 1 was Maia's best round.

Round 1:
Maia took Masvidal's back 1:26 into the round (3.34 left in round) - kept it for 3.10
Masvidal got on top with 0.24 left - landed some good strikes
----Clear Maia Round----

No way Masvidal should win the round based on some good strikes in the last 24 seconds. Maia had his back with both hooks in or a body triangle for more than half the round.

Round 2:
Masvidal landed a lot of good strikes for the first ~2 minutes of the round
Grappling starts about 2 minutes into round - Masvidal on top for ~22 seconds and lands 2 good strikes
Maia gets on top with 2.38 left in round (2.22 into the round)
Maia stayed on top for the rest of the round. Couldn't get both hooks in, so less dominant on the mat.
Maia landed a few good punches at the end of the round with one hook in
----Very close round, good case for Masvidal winning 10-9----

Round 2 was Masvidal's I think. He landed quite a lot of good strikes before Maia got the fight to the mat. Maia was unable to get into a really dominant position on Masvidal's back this round. I'd say Masvidal's work on the feet was worth more than Maia's because Maia couldn't get into a great position this round.

Round 3:
Masvidal landed some good strikes in the first ~2.30 minutes
Maia gets on top with 2.28 left in the round (2.32 into the round)
Maia got back mount with a body triangle with 1.38 left in the round (3.22 into the round)
Maia kept back mount for the rest of the round
----Clear Maia round, bit less clear than the 1st round----

Round 3 has to be Maia's I think. Masvidal's strikes weren't as good this round. Maia got into a very dominant position which he didn't do in round 2. When you have someone in back mount with a body triangle locked in for 1.38 the other fighter has to be pretty dominant on the feet to win the round imo.

Ludicrous to suggest that Masvidal was robbed. Reducing what Maia did down to "he only had control" doesn't really reflect what he did. That argument works better in a fight like Alvarez/Pettis. Alvarez's control was against the fence and in Pettis's guard/half guard. Maia's control was in the most dominant position in an MMA fight; back mount with both hooks in or a body triangle locked in. He was always looking to finish but Masvidal did really well defensively. You're going to have to do something really impressive with strikes to counteract that dominance Maia had on the mat. Pretty clear that Maia won this fight at worst 2 rounds to 1 imo.

I agree with the first 2, but don't think the 3rd was a clear as you make it out to be... again I think it was Maia's, but given that Masvidal was doing some damage with his strikes, I don't have a problem with 1/3 judges giving him that round. Maia got the win, and deserves the title shot, but it wasnt particularly dominant or overly convincing.

 

[BradWCE]

I really disagree.
On the one hand you say that JJ did a great job, and on the other you say Andrade was less willing to throw. I think Andrade tried everything she could - JJ was clearly the better fighter. Her ground games seems to have improved a lot since Claudia as well (or Andrade's isn't as good as we've seen previously) because JJ just had the strength and technique to get back up after each take down attempt. And JJ's technical striking is incredible - no single strike has knockout power, but she just repeatedly will find ways to hit you and over time that will slow you down - it has happened in each of her last 3 fights. Andrade tried, and got a fair share of damage in on her strikes - but with the energy it took for 1 charge and flurry, JJ would hit you with 10x as many shots.

What the last 3 fights have shown is that JJ is beatable - she can be hit, and she can be taken down - but it's gonna take someone with significant power to do it... otherwise she will just gradually beat you up over 5 rounds. Claudia is probably the best chance for a submission, but she definitely gave her best shot last time, and will be due a rematch, but I don't think anyone in this division has the Nunes like hitting power that could really stop her.

I don't see how you're really disagreeing with me. Seems like we agree quite a lot on this.

Andrade was less willing to throw than in the past because of what Jedrzejczyk was doing. Andrade was made to look silly when she missed. Either Jedrzejczyk landed a good strike or two, or she moved off to the side and Andrade fell forward into nothing but air. I don't think it's one or the other here. Jedrzejczyk looked great and Andrade was less willing to throw than she has been in the past. Jedrzejczyk wasn't there to be hit like Hill and Penne, which resulted in Andrade throwing less often.

Jedrzejczyk's takedown defence is great from a technical standpoint. She does all the right things. Gadelha was able to take her down a number of times because she's stronger than Jedrzejczyk and is a great technical wrestler. Andrade wasn't as successful with her takedowns because she's far less technical than Gadelha with them. Andrade was at a technique disadvantage against Jedrzejczyk when it came to trying to take Jedrzejczyk down but she got a couple of takedowns because she's really strong.

Gadelha kept Jedrzejczyk down more than Andrade because Gadelha is the better top control grappler. Gadelha's got some of the best control on top in the division. Probably the best actually. She's really technical and strong. Andrade's got the strength but she's nowhere near as technical as Gadelha.

I don't think Gadelha's the most likely to submit Jedrzejczyk. She hasn't submitted anyone since 2010. She's more of a positional grappler than a really big submission threat. I think Namajunas probably has the best shot at knocking Jedrzejczyk out or submitting her. I'd favour Jedrzejczyk heavily if that fight happened but Namajunas can jump on an opportunity to land a big strike or to grab a submission out of nowhere as well as just about anyone in the division.

 

[BradWCE]

Something else that separates Gadelha and Andrade that I forgot to mention is footwork. Gadelha was able to close the distance to land strikes and get takedowns early in the second fight with Jedrzejczyk because her footwork is really slick. I don't know who exactly worked with her on that but she was at Nova União for a long time. She's not as good a striker as Aldo but she's got great footwork like he does.

A combination of Gadelha and Andrade would do really well against Jedrzejczyk haha. Gadelha's takedowns, top control and footwork combined with Andrade's volume striking and cardio. Both are really strong and fast.

Kowalkiewicz's footwork isn't as good as Gadelha's either. If she had great footwork she could have had a lot of success against Jedrzejczyk with her high volume, cardio and toughness.

Jedrzejczyk's move to ATT has made her even better. She looked great in the Kowalkiewicz fight besides getting hit and hurt in the 4th round. She hadn't been in Florida training for too long before that fight. Now all the time spent at ATT is really showing. She looked better than ever against Andrade.

 

[deklares]

Anyone familiar with BJJscout knows his breakdowns of Maia are pretty enlightening. Recommend any fans of Maia who aren't already familiar with BJJScout to watch his breakdown of Maia's game and his mastery of MMA BJJ.

Goes into detail about how Masvidal did so well in defending the Rear naked and also why he predominantly kicked and had so much success with kicks especially early in the 2nd round amongst other things.

 

[BradWCE]

BJJ Scout's stuff is great. Masvidal really did his homework (or probably more likely his team did their homework). Brown and Magny reacted to the feints, but Masvidal didn't. Condit went after the shoulder clamp, but Masvidal didn't. ATT generally get their fighters really well prepared for their opponents. I think this is another example of that. That video is great.

I think ATT probably wanted Masvidal to break away from Maia as soon as possible. Masvidal would have probably won quite comfortably if he had done that. Maia took advantage when Masvidal didn't immediately disengage.

Luke Thomas did a good job on Maia's weird takedowns/guard pull game. He says that there's nobody else doing the stuff that Maia's doing in MMA at such a high level. He's right. Maia basically pulled mount against Brown and quickly got on top. That's amazing.

Here it is. The stuff about Maia's takedowns starts about 18/19 minutes in.


Great article here about Joanna by Patrick Wyman: deadspin.com/joanna-jedrzejczyk-is-the-greatest-female-fighter-ever-1795259894

He points out that Jedrzejczyk can do everything in MMA as a striker. She can pressure, stick and move, and fight in the pocket really well. He points out how other really good strikers in MMA can do 1 or 2 of those at a really high level, but Jedrzejczyk can do all 3.

I said before the fight that Joanna might have to fight in a way that she hadn't yet in MMA against Andrade, and she did. This is the first fight where she's been determined to be an out-fighter. She was either all the way in or all the way out pretty much the whole fight. She wanted to stay at range away from Andrade's winging punches and she did for the most part. When Andrade successfully closed the distance Joanna immediately collapsed the space and clinched with Andrade.

I've seen people say that Jedrzejczyk is boring. Luke Thomas had people telling him that on twitter. That's really weird to me. I'd imagine that there aren't many who don't enjoy Jedrzejczyk's fights but do enjoy Maia's fights. Seems like these people would have a very narrow range of fights/fighters they enjoy watching.

 

[Dan]

How could anyone say JJ is boring

 

[BradWCE]

How could anyone say JJ is boring

Yeah I don't get it either. Here are a few examples.

 

[BradWCE]

How amazing is it that Nate Diaz still holds the record for most significant strikes landed in a UFC fight? He landed 238 on Cerrone in a 15 minute fight. It almost makes Jedrzejczyk's ridiculous totals of 225 and 220 in 25 minute bouts look slow by comparison. Diaz landed almost 16 a minute. He landed faster than a strike every 4 seconds. Just absurd. I rewatched that fight not that long ago and it's just strike after strike hitting Cerrone.

I might not have explained my thoughts on the Maia/Masvidal scoring that well the other day. It was really close but I think Maia pretty clearly won rounds 1 and 3. I think 2 was the closest round. I think 29-28 Maia is the best score followed by 30-27 Maia. I find it really hard to see 2 Masvidal rounds.

I got some pushback on how I saw round 3. It was close. Very close at first glance. Pretty much exactly half the round was a striking match and half was a grappling match. Striking and grappling are scored equally. So you could think it's a coin flip because Masvidal won the striking and Maia won the grappling. I don't think so. Maia's grappling was more dominant than Masvidal's striking. There was over 1 and a half minutes of back control for Maia. Masvidal landed some strikes, but he didn't land enough or do enough damage to outweigh Maia's grappling dominance in the round.

Not that this means that much I suppose, but all 3 judges gave Maia the 3rd round and all the MMA media scoring the fight did too. It was a close round but when I watched it solely to judge it, I thought it was pretty easy to score. It was a close round but a clear Maia round imo.

 

[Barry Roundhouse]

Lol that's halrious. She's been in some of the more brutal fights in female MMA.

Also the 2nd Claudia fight was unreal.

It's surprising to me that people could be big enough "fans" to follow and interact with someone like Luke Thomas, but find her boring. What do they want? Her to throw technique out the window and lead with her chin?

She is quite easily in my top ten favourite fighters to watch.

 

[BradWCE]

Like I said, I really don't get it.

Funny that you bring up Gadelha. Another fan tweeted about how the lack of tough challengers might play a part for him in not really enjoying her fights. That second fight with Gadleha wasn't long ago. Gadelha was up 2 rounds to none and Jedrzejczyk had a tough time winning the 3rd and then took over in the 4th and 5th. Hardly an easy fight for her. I guess he forgot about that fight lol.

I suppose that argument over the last two fights makes some sense. Jedrzejczyk easily won 9 of those 10 rounds. Some people gave Andrade round 1 but I really don't get that. I think the only round she could have lost in her last two fights is the 4th round against Karolina. Karolina hurt her in round 4 but besides that she's comfortably beat Karolina and Andrade.

It's a weird thing how dominance that extends over multiple rounds is viewed in a negative manner by some. Early finishes are very impressive. If you can't manage to get the finish, but can dominate fights for long periods of time consistently then it's even more of a feat imo.

 

[Dan]

Yeah I don't get it either. Here are a few examples.

Before the Swanson v Doo Ho Choi fight....I had the Jedrzejczyk v Gadelha 2 as my favourite fight of the year. It's beautiful watching her pick her opponents apart with her Muay Thai way of fighting.

I think those other people are in a very small minority.....otherwise she wouldn't be in huge ppv's and co-main event in em.

 

[Adzam]

Wow that is surprising. I can't understand how someone could be a fan of combat sports and not be impressed by jj? You can't expect too many KOs at 115 pounds

 

[Barry Roundhouse]

Wow that is surprising. I can't understand how someone could be a fan of combat sports and not be impressed by jj? You can't expect too many KOs at 115 pounds

She has a 33% TKO rate in title fights. Granted her last 4 have been decisions but those have all been really entertaining striking dominate fights. It's ridiculous really.

 

[checkraiseulite]

her fights are boring for recreational mma fans in the same way mayweather fights are boring for recreational boxing fans.

she's a points fighter with great technique but people want to see finishes.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I've been reading a fair bit about this topic on the underground and it's pretty clear the major reason people don't enjoy Joanna's fights is because it's WMMA. There's all sorts of polls running there about how the UFC should disband the women's divisions and move them all to Invicta. There are plenty of comments along the same lines to the twitter one's BradWCE posted littered across that board.

 

[deklares]

I've been reading a fair bit about this topic on the underground and it's pretty clear the major reason people don't enjoy Joanna's fights is because it's WMMA. There's all sorts of polls running there about how the UFC should disband the women's divisions and move them all to Invicta. There are plenty of comments along the same lines to the twitter one's BradWCE posted littered across that board.

Agreed.

I think it stems atleast partially because there is a point of view (rightly or wrongly) that the women are getting a push at the expense of Men that have been in MMA toiling away for a lot longer eg. Schevchenko vs Pena headlining over Masvidal vs Cerrone and Van Zant vs Waterson headlining over Uriah Faber's farewell fight. Jorge Masvidal and others have been quite outspoken on this issue in the past.

In the lower weight classes in general there is a sense that it is boring because there are less KO's as Mighty Mouse is finding too.

Like watching JJ and genuinely think she is probably top 5 strikers in the UFC.

 

[Ry009]

JJ boring? FMD. Made good fighters appear sub par too.

And she's got the charisma/confidence/attitude to match as well.