Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

Hey all,

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Ballarat Bob]

If the French were to send troops I would imagine it would be more technical and support troops. They could possibly take over some of the border guard duties and free up Ukranian border troops to go to the front.
At the moment it's a suggestion from Macron who is getting frustrated with the levels of support Ukraine is receiving. Considering how much he was trying to be the peace maker at the beginning of the war he has finally twigged what it is going to take to fully oppose Russia.
I don't think Putin would be that worried but if it means France is going to double down on its support and drag some of its European neighbours along with it then that can only be a good thing for Ukraine.

 

[Zidane98]

Russia can still attack assets in Western countries, they still have a massive population and an abundance of natural resources. Why do you want to escalate this conflict? If I was French, I wouldn't want friends or family to die for Ukraine.

Russia will not attack assets in western countries.


Russian natural resources have been replaced on the world market. Russia now mostly trades only with nations who take their resources at a deep discount.


And the last part - wow. French people are all too aware what happens in a raging fascist isn't stopped in his tracks.

 

[Zidane98]

You are making the assumption that Poland will be attacked, who are a part of NATO. What's the chance that's gonna happen? Russia would get their are kicked, or worse. You gonna gamble on mushroom clouds?

However, if France decides to send troops, their infrastructure is fair game. At the moment, it's not their war. It's not Poland's war. Anyone suggesting sending NATO troops is a f'ing idiot

What gamble on mushroom clouds? This is a typical Russian tactic, suggest a nuclear threat from Russia if Putin doesn't get his way with Ukraine.


It's not going to happen, Putin gains nothing by nuking a neighbor apart from alienating even Belarus and potentially contaminating his own country with nuclear fallout.

Russia's up to a couple of hundred nuclear threats in the last 15 years or so. We all know it's a load of bullshit and should be treated with disdain.

 

[Baldur]

If the French were to send troops I would imagine it would be more technical and support troops. They could possibly take over some of the border guard duties and free up Ukranian border troops to go to the front.
At the moment it's a suggestion from Macron who is getting frustrated with the levels of support Ukraine is receiving. Considering how much he was trying to be the peace maker at the beginning of the war he has finally twigged what it is going to take to fully oppose Russia.
I don't think Putin would be that worried but if it means France is going to double down on its support and drag some of its European neighbours along with it then that can only be a good thing for Ukraine.

If Russia obtained a breakthrough, I would not be shocked if France was willing to send the foreign legion.

 

[Thrawn]

Russia will not attack assets in western countries.


Russian natural resources have been replaced on the world market. Russia now mostly trades only with nations who take their resources at a deep discount.


And the last part - wow. French people are all too aware what happens in a raging fascist isn't stopped in his tracks.

You don't know that for certain.

And what wow? Do you really think it'll be popular opinion in France to send boots on the ground?

So you're advocating a Chamberlain-style appeasement of Russia?

How has that worked out for Poland in the past?

Ukraine is 200km from Warsaw. Better for Poland to be fighting the war in Donetsk 1,00km away than wait for Russia to finish with Ukraine and move into western Poland.

You keep saying WW3 as if there's other nations waiting to join Russia and it's unclear of who would win. But there isn't. It's more like Desert Storm. It will take weeks, not months to push Russia out of Ukraine with just a small chunk of Euro nations contributing. Russia are resorting to trapping Nepalese into service, it's not like they're capable of opening another front anywhere else.

Different circumstances mate.

Firstly, there was no NATO back then. No nuclear weapons. Secondly, it's not like Russia has the capacity to sweep through Europe in little time, particularly considering they're already at a stalemate in Ukraine and it's already been two years. And yes, WW3 - if NATO joins in the fight then so does the US. How are you so certain China won't join in on Russia's side? Or attack Taiwan amidst the chaos? You don't even know if Putin has any plans to invade the rest of Europe. With what army? There are so many unknowns, don't pretend you know the answers.

If you want to further escalate this war to a potential global conflict, then be the first to send your children to the front-line if you're so gung-ho about it. There's a reason why Macron's suggestion of sending troops to Ukraine was shut down previously. Even Poland, the country you used as justification, did not agree with him.

 

[Zidane98]

You don't know that for certain.

And what wow? Do you really think it'll be popular opinion in France to send boots on the ground?

Different circumstances mate.

Firstly, there was no NATO back then. No nuclear weapons. Secondly, it's not like Russia has the capacity to sweep through Europe in little time, particularly considering they're already at a stalemate in Ukraine and it's already been two years. And yes, WW3 - if NATO joins in the fight then so does the US. How are you so certain China won't join in on Russia's side? Or attack Taiwan amidst the chaos? You don't even know if Putin has any plans to invade the rest of Europe. With what army? There are so many unknowns, don't pretend you know the answers.

If you want to further escalate this war to a potential global conflict, then be the first to send your children to the front-line if you're so gung-ho about it. There's a reason why Macron's suggestion of sending troops to Ukraine was shut down previously. Even Poland, the country you used as justification, did not agree with him.

China won't join in. It wants to take over in Central Asia as the dominant power and wants Vladivostok returned back into China.


Eventually unless Russia backs down troops from other nations joining in is an inevitability. And there's not a thing Russia can do about it apart from give up on Putin's attempt at USSR 2.0 lite


This will become a regional conflict between Russia (with support from Belarus & Syria) and Eastern European nations threatened by Russian imperialism (supported by EU nationa & US depending on who is in power)

 

[Thrawn]

Yeah you already said that. I'd like to know why Ukraine isn't worth it. You're giving the nod to the wholesale murder and oppression of innocent civilians - the eradication of a state and the cultures within - so your reasoning is important to me. Maybe you think some peoples are worth it and others aren't, which raises one big question. Or maybe you think none are worth it - which leads into something very circular and ludicrous.

Get f'ed. To assume because I don't want there being an even bigger conflict in Europe means I am wanting people to die? No, that is ludicrous.

We can still support Ukraine financially, logistically and materially. But NATO countries actively declaring war on Russia and possibly triggering WW3? I hope calmer, rational heads prevail. Poland did not agree with Macron with sending troops either; are they giving the nod to wholesale murder too?

My reasoning is pretty simple and already explained: I don't want this conflict to spiral out of control. I do not agree sending armed forces to Ukraine for this very reason. That doesn't make me someone who green lights murder, you absolute berk.

 

[Chief]

Russia will not attack assets in western countries.

Except for the constant cyber attacks.

 

[Thrawn]

China won't join in. It wants to take over in Central Asia as the dominant power and wants Vladivostok returned back into China.


Eventually unless Russia backs down troops from other nations joining in is an inevitability. And there's not a thing Russia can do about it apart from give up on Putin's attempt at USSR 2.0 lite


This will become a regional conflict between Russia (with support from Belarus & Syria) and Eastern European nations threatened by Russian imperialism (supported by EU nationa & US depending on who is in power)

And how do you know what their intentions are? Did Xi tell you personally? Are you part of a military or intelligence committee? We can only guess what these countries' intentions are (especially given that the CCP are known liars), but suggesting direct military action (and thus war with Russia) is IMO a stupid move that will just cost more lives. That Germany and Poland had to temper the French seems to imply that they agree with that stance.

 

[jatz14]

You are making the assumption that Poland will be attacked, who are a part of NATO. What's the chance that's gonna happen? Russia would get their are kicked, or worse. You gonna gamble on mushroom clouds?

However, if France decides to send troops, their infrastructure is fair game. At the moment, it's not their war. It's not Poland's war. Anyone suggesting sending NATO troops is a f'ing idiot

Well, statements and publications by those close to Putin asking for this, lets us muse.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jatz14]

Because Ukraine isn't worth the escalation towards WW3 and a possible nuclear response.

Name a country that is?

And if you cannot, why wouldn't Putin do what his adherents want, and try to dismantle Western Europe?

After all, if Ukraine isn't worth it, why be held by a treaty asking you to risk WW3 for some other country that's not worth it?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Syd]

Except for the constant cyber attacks.

You said BigFooty was down for server maintenance!

 

[CD Xbow]

Article from the Conversation about that Zombie myth - the West forced Putin to invade.

No, the West is not to blame for Russia’s war in Ukraine. Why this myth – and others – are so difficult to dispel

Russian propaganda and talking points on Ukraine continue to be repeated, without being challenged, two years after the war began.

theconversation.com

 

[Thrawn]

Well, statements and publications by those close to Putin asking for this, lets us muse.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yet you're not taking nuclear threats at face value, why wouldn't you chalk this up as an empty threat too?

 

[wannabejack]

Because Ukraine isn't worth the escalation towards WW3 and a possible nuclear response.

What if China invades Taiwan? Is it worth WW3 and a possible nuclear response? Many here have mentioned that China is watching what the west is doing in Ukraine which at least is recognised as a country
"Currently Taiwan has 12 diplomatic allies that recognise Taiwan."
"China on track to be ready to invade Taiwan by 2027, U.S. commander says"

 

[Thrawn]

Name a country that is?

And if you cannot, why wouldn't Putin do what his adherents want, and try to dismantle Western Europe?

After all, if Ukraine isn't worth it, why be held by a treaty asking you to risk WW3 for some other country that's not worth it?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

No country is worth the end of civilisation. I don't want to be involved in a war where many millions will die, and we should do everything in our power to prevent that from happening. This is why Poland and Germany took France aside and told them what it'd mean if they sent troops to Ukraine. They're not stupid.

Russia is not going to dismantle western Europe. They don't have the logistical capacity nor the manpower nor the competence to do so. This is not like pre-war Germany here. If you're so gung-ho about more death and destruction via direct involvement in joining the fight, then suit up and join as a mercenary.

 

[Thrawn]

What if China invades Taiwan? Is it worth WW3 and a possible nuclear response? Many here have mentioned that China is watching what the west is doing in Ukraine which at least is recognised as a country
"Currently Taiwan has 12 diplomatic allies that recognise Taiwan."
"China on track to be ready to invade Taiwan by 2027, U.S. commander says"

No. No it isn't. That's a pretty silly question.

You think Ukraine is a hard slog right now, ohhh boy... an amphibious landing is many times harder.

Gonna volunteer yourself to that battle if it eventuates?

 

[Thrawn]

Send them the ammunition/resources they need and there's no need to even discuss NATO troop involvement. Ukraine would deal with it.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

Well then, we are in agreement here.

So don't go telling me I'm for murdering people when my stance is avoiding a wider, more devastating conflict, as much as possible.

 

[Zidane98]

Well then, we are in agreement here.

So don't go telling me I'm for murdering people when my stance is avoiding a wider, more devastating conflict, as much as possible.

These are the exact reasons why Russia & Putin should withdraw from Ukraine. I'm glad you agree the death & destruction caused isn't worth it for them.

 

[Thrawn]

These are the exact reasons why Russia & Putin should withdraw from Ukraine. I'm glad you agree the death & destruction caused isn't worth it for them.

Did I ever say otherwise?

 

[Millky95]

With the sheer amount of manpower and equipment advantage Russia has, the West has 3 options

1. Send troops in to match the manpower advantage
2. Send equipment that beats Russian equipment so easily it mitigates the manpower advantage (AA, jets, long range missles etc etc)
3. Let Ukraine fall

If we can't do number 2, we will eventually have to do number 1. Might not be in Ukraine but maybe Moldova. Or Poland

 

[wannabejack]

No. No it isn't. That's a pretty silly question.

You think Ukraine is a hard slog right now, ohhh boy... an amphibious landing is many times harder.

Gonna volunteer yourself to that battle if it eventuates?

Maybe the only country worth WW3 is the country you live in.

 

[Saint]

The decision is:

If we send troops/planes/missiles into Ukraine, can we kick the Russians out quickly?

Would it be better to let Russia missile attack and shell civilian areas for another 2, 3 or 4 years?

Which way would result in less deaths and the most freedom?

I think it's more likely that Russia retreats than escalates if EU troops, missiles and planes enter Ukraine.

There's no chance of millions dying, Russia is killing as many people as it possibly can in Ukraine. They don't have any equipment or men to escalate anything and no other nation is going to come to their aid in the face of the EU.

 

[Millky95]

I think it's more likely that Russia retreats than escalates if EU troops, missiles and planes enter Ukraine.

Agreed. They'll hang around, have a massive military lose of some kind, declare the operation to be a success and over then retreat. But to do that all the Russian assets currently sitting in all the parliaments across the world need to find where they left their spines and actually do something

 

[DangerHere]

Russia can still attack assets in Western countries, they still have a massive population and an abundance of natural resources. Why do you want to escalate this conflict? If I was French, I wouldn't want friends or family to die for Ukraine.

Russia is focussing on detaining / conscripting ethnic minorities and murdering civilians in the Ukraine as well as any internal political opponents.

Their leaders (Medvedev is a perfect example) can’t “attack” anything except the Vodka bottle