Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

Hey all,

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Cap]

The date is the key thing here, there were serious negotiations for the next year or so
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2...hy-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/
“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”

The news highlights the impact of former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s efforts to stop negotiations, as journalist Branko Marcetic noted on Twitter. The decision to scuttle the deal coincided with Johnson’s April visit to Kyiv, during which he reportedly urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to break off talks with Russia for two key reasons: Putin cannot be negotiated with, and the West isn’t ready for the war to end.

Sounds like a whole lot of speculation.

Just glossing over the fact that Stalin defeated the darkest tyrant in modern history, for all his faults he led the USSR into the destruction of fascism(mostly, lets ignore franco and the greece regime being part of NATO)

Wait, you believe the USSR won WW2?

You have swallowed the Russian propaganda hard.

 

[Smeg Head]

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

People in Poland were horribly persecuted ever way, its like asking do you want to be burnt or drowned. Also the Gulag system qualifies as death camps.

Chamberlain was indeed buying time, in that you are correct. The UK was stalling for time to start getting their munitions etc, all those parts of a war economy to ramp up, none of that was there ready to fight Germany at the time.

 

[Smeg Head]

Sounds like a whole lot of speculation.



Wait, you believe the USSR won WW2?

You have swallowed the Russian propaganda hard.

Allies certainly don't win the war when they do without the Soviets and the Soviets certainly don't win the war with out allied materiel from a start.

 

[Cap]

Allies certainly don't win the war when they do without the Soviets and the Soviets certainly don't win the war with out allied materiel from a start.

absolutely, no one party should be claiming to have won the war.

 

[Cap]

Bit graphic , but shows what benefits western tech brings

 

[jatz14]

lol, you realise there are no guarantees in geopolitics? did you miss history class?

Even article 5 in nato isn't worth the paper. They could raise a few complaints in the UN, slap a sanction on and call it done. I don't think the US will do this in the event of an attack on the Baltics say, but the idea of guarantees is farcical

Sorry, I would have thought someone interested in peace could come up with something other than trite nonsense.

Awaiting your opening offer with baited breath.

Will put Crimes on the table.

Interested?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[EagleMan87]

No they weren't, this is pure cold war propaganda. The communists were the first people Hitler hunted

Were France best buds with the nazi's when they signed a non aggression pact? or the half dozen other neighbouring countries?

The sphere of influence stuff isn't as bad as people say, consider the Russian empire pre WW1. Do you think the freak out against the Solomon islands accepting Chinese money is lunacy? They are in our sphere of influence

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

France never signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis, nor did 'the half dozen other neighbouring countries'. Poland signed one, in 1934, so what exactly are you talking about?

 

[jatz14]

No they weren't, this is pure cold war propaganda. The communists were the first people Hitler hunted

Were France best buds with the nazi's when they signed a non aggression pact? or the half dozen other neighbouring countries?

The sphere of influence stuff isn't as bad as people say, consider the Russian empire pre WW1. Do you think the freak out against the Solomon islands accepting Chinese money is lunacy? They are in our sphere of influence

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

Yeah. Peace in our times. Just sign a peace deal, prevent the bloodshed, all will be rosy.
If they had rejected the peace deal, and forced the issue with Hitler then, when Germany was still not as strong as it would become, and Hitler not as entrenched, history may have turned out very different.

But, a peace deal is always better than conflict, am i right?

 

[jatz14]

France never signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis, nor did 'the half dozen other neighbouring countries'. Poland signed one, in 1934, so what exactly are you talking about?

There was a limited deal to avert the Czech crises, created by a state violating the territorial integrity of another, under the guise of 'protecting our people' in that country.

Coupled with Europe putting pressure on said country, for the glorious ideal of peace.

Barreness is right to mock them

Stupid stupid stupid idea.

 

[Visions]

What's the upside for the US and Europe in Ukraine winning the war quickly? And versus the risks that come with providing the means to do so e.g. troops on the ground?

Who said anything about boots on the ground? All they had to do was supply Ukraine what it needed from the beginning (yes I understand there may have been some limitations) and they could have taken care of it themselves while the Russians were disorganised, rather than drip feeding them here and there because of "escalating".

Winning the war quickly would have allowed the US and Europe to get rid of a mortal enemy with the minimum of fuss and on the cheap. Now its a long drawn out affair costing the US and Europe more, and allowing Russia to also be a huge threat to Europe.

 

[Visions]

Just glossing over the fact that Stalin defeated the darkest tyrant in modern history, for all his faults he led the USSR into the destruction of fascism(mostly, lets ignore franco and the greece regime being part of NATO)

Yeah the man was an angel, apart from being a bigger tyrant by killing more people than Hitler.

 

[Visions]

Sanctions. What sanctions?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Sanctions. What sanctions?

Very depressing

 

[Aussie in exile]

No they weren't, this is pure cold war propaganda. The communists were the first people Hitler hunted

Were France best buds with the nazi's when they signed a non aggression pact? or the half dozen other neighbouring countries?

The sphere of influence stuff isn't as bad as people say, consider the Russian empire pre WW1. Do you think the freak out against the Solomon islands accepting Chinese money is lunacy? They are in our sphere of influence

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

Absolute tosh on your part.
I suggest you read some history

 

[Syd]

Sanctions. What sanctions?

Population of 6.975M living large!

 

[MrKK]

Who said anything about boots on the ground? All they had to do was supply Ukraine what it needed from the beginning (yes I understand there may have been some limitations) and they could have taken care of it themselves while the Russians were disorganised, rather than drip feeding them here and there because of "escalating".

Winning the war quickly would have allowed the US and Europe to get rid of a mortal enemy with the minimum of fuss and on the cheap. Now its a long drawn out affair costing the US and Europe more, and allowing Russia to also be a huge threat to Europe.

The long drawn out affair is costing Russia amd Ukraine far more than the US and Europe. As your subsequent post shows European countries are cynically bypassing their own sanctions to reduce their own burden.

 

[Millky95]

lol, you realise there are no guarantees in geopolitics? did you miss history class?

Like a guarantee that Russia won't invade you if you give them all your nukes?

 

[Saint Shags]

No they weren't, this is pure cold war propaganda. The communists were the first people Hitler hunted

Were France best buds with the nazi's when they signed a non aggression pact? or the half dozen other neighbouring countries?

The sphere of influence stuff isn't as bad as people say, consider the Russian empire pre WW1. Do you think the freak out against the Solomon islands accepting Chinese money is lunacy? They are in our sphere of influence

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

Here I was thinking that the Molotov-Ribbentrop was an agreement between the Germans and Soviets that stated non-aggression towards the other and the secret splitting of the countries that lay between them.

The amount of propaganda that you are spewing here is mind-blowingly absurd.

And the real danger is that there are people out there stupid enough to believe it.

 

[Mobbs]

Situation on border of Kharkiv oblast, with two vectors of attack each seemingly in intense fighting and currently no notable territorial change either way for last couple of days (perhaps a couple of streets in Vovchansk):

I've edited two blue circles to show where is Hlyboke and Lukyantksi are (see below). If you're unfamiliar with the region, Vovchansk is the busy part of the map on the right (approx 18k ppl I think), Kharkiv is off map a bit further just below bottom-left corner.

Caption with the [TG post] from Skadovsk channel.
Kharkiv region. The situation as of 14:40: The enemy does not stop trying to capture Vovchansk
Fights are taking place in the area of the meat processing plant and the lyceum
The enemy reduced the pace of the offensive in the area of Hlyboke and Lukyantsi settlements

 

[Zidane98]

No they weren't, this is pure cold war propaganda. The communists were the first people Hitler hunted

Were France best buds with the nazi's when they signed a non aggression pact? or the half dozen other neighbouring countries?

The sphere of influence stuff isn't as bad as people say, consider the Russian empire pre WW1. Do you think the freak out against the Solomon islands accepting Chinese money is lunacy? They are in our sphere of influence

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

Utter tosh. Stalin sided with the Nazis on carving up Europe. Chief in those negotiations was Russia letting the Nazis have Poland in exchange for the Nazis letting Russia take the Baltics.


If Hitler didn't double cross Stalin and go for the Baltics / Russia anyway they would have been on the same side of WW2.

The agreements were all documented. It was only after the collapse of the USSR that the agreement to carve up Europe between Stalin & the Nazis was discovered.

Stalin is a Nazi collaborator, end of story. And Putin glorifies him to this day.

 

[Mobbs]

Belbek airfield (a little north of Sevastopol) has been under fire again (two days in a row), as well as (reportedly) other areas of Crimea including Dhankoy, Sevastopol & Balaclava. The news is that Balaclava were believed to have restored a harbour there which had been abandoned for many years.

Belbek was absolutely battered. News of the damage levels is hard to find, this image is alleged to be from there (unverified). I thought it looked like a Grad but bloggers are refering to it as some kind of radar system.

The words ATACMS, SCALP/Storm Shadow were floated around, and fragments of cluster munitions were found nearby.

 

[Mobbs]

Some other notes of interest:

Russia started moving a lot of military equipment to Belarus (again). Suggests the possibility of having another shot at Ukraine north of Kyiv. Perhaps to further stretch UKR defenses and produce more weaknesses elsewhere.

Fico shot to within inches of death but apparently now stable. Shooter was Juraj Cintula, a man associated with some kind of pro-Russian group (not necessarily pro-war, just pro-Russia). He said in an interview while in custody that he did it because he was unhappy with how his country was being run. Fico received life-threatening injuries but now announced to be stable. Zelenskyy has condemned the shooting.

Georgian govt passed the Foreign Agents law despite the massive protests (which still continue). Stipulations of the law include govt ability to designate anyone they choose as a "Foreign Agent", which then excludes them for applying to any post in national administration, includes ineligibility to stand for elections, or even to take a role of observer. Modelled on legislation iin Russia, this law can be used to enable charges against, or dissolve, any media outlet does not follow an RF narrative. As Georgia has been run by a pro-Russia govt since the multiple invasions, it is likely the law will be employed similarly.

 

[Mobbs]

Oh and Putin is in Beijing.

 

[wannabejack]

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

On August 23, 1939, the Soviet Union and Germany signed a nonaggression treaty in Moscow, paving the way for the Nazi and Soviet invasions of Poland the following month and the beginning of World War II.

www.rferl.org

Known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, it contained a secret protocol that carved the region into spheres of influence..
"Spheres of influence", sounds familiar?

 

[Jello_B]

No they weren't, this is pure cold war propaganda. The communists were the first people Hitler hunted

Were France best buds with the nazi's when they signed a non aggression pact? or the half dozen other neighbouring countries?

The sphere of influence stuff isn't as bad as people say, consider the Russian empire pre WW1. Do you think the freak out against the Solomon islands accepting Chinese money is lunacy? They are in our sphere of influence

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

Get off the bulb man seriously.
Some of the stuff you post in here is interesting and insightful.
But **** me, this is madness. The Russians were awful during that period, arguably their treatment of people (generally) was worse than the nazis.