Wayne Jackson- Move a Melbourne Club

[GreyCrow]

Yes and no. When you centralise as much revenue as the league does, the clubs are always going to get money they are entitled to from the league. And thats before you get to inequalities in the fixture, broadcast and stadium arrangements.

Agreed. The bigger one ironically is the stadium arrangement. Moving clubs , building stadiums and putting better deals in place might help. Have not looked at how the new Etihad arrangements will help clubs so cant comment on how much this will help.

 

[mightymouse75]

TasmaniaN kangaroos . Would be the best thing that happened to the league. Almost be able to call it afl not vfl then.

 

[mightymouse75]

No offence roos supporters. It's just long overdue. Love the roos and hope they do well but sponging off the tassie government and getting massive handouts ti survive is no way to live. Or stay in victorIA and relegate to the vfl.

 

[Rob]

What club is going to want to relocate whilst the AFL hands millions out every year? You'd have to be mental.

Relocation will only ever happen if it's absolutely necessary for survival.

 

[mightymouse75]

They should be forced fir the good of the game. And im not being a snart ass

 

[The_Wookie]

lol no they are receiving!
Tax payer & extra from the AFL
Essendon, Collingwood, WCE and Freo are the only clubs that do not get the extra money from the AFL
on top the hawks rent waverley for $1 a season! you cannot even afford to build your own facilities like nearly every other club has or about to

read the annual reports its in there! the hawks are a welfare club that act as the wealthy

The taxpayer money is literally a sponsorship through Tourism Tasmania. Identical in arrangement, if not size, to what GWS have in Canberra, and similar to what Melbourne has in the NT, and the Western Bulldogs have in Cairns, St Kilda had in New Zealand, North had on the Gold Coast/Sydney/Canberra and now Hobart, Carlton had for a year on the Gold Coast. That is match sponsorship in exchange for matches played.

Collingwood and Essendon both received Future fund money up until 2013 - as did Fremantle and West Coast. Essendon for that matter, received the second most money from the future fund in 2013 at 3.325 million - ahead of every club except Melbourne.

Finally the mirvac deal wasnt a handout, but a commercial decision between Mirvac and Hawthorn. And last time i heard Hawthorn have proposed to build a massive facility at Dingley.

 

[Craze]

Last night proved the drawing power of two of the three last Victorian clubs to join the old VFL. Can't say I recall an SA or WA team playing in front if 88,000 in their time in the AFL. And let's not forget North playing an Elimination Final in front of 91,000 last year. Perhaps we should have booted Port out when they were struggling to get 15,000 people to their games only 3-4 years ago. Thank God the AFL don't pay any attention to the flogs who post on this site!

 

[madmug]

Last night proved the drawing power of two of the three last Victorian clubs to join the old VFL. Can't say I recall an SA or WA team playing in front if 88,000 in their time in the AFL. And let's not forget North playing an Elimination Final in front of 91,000 last year. Perhaps we should have booted Port out when they were struggling to get 15,000 people to their games only 3-4 years ago. Thank God the AFL don't pay any attention to the flogs who post on this site!

Sinny v Wet toast GFs seemed to draw pretty well. I also saw a game at the G between Mulbn & Port which had 15k.
So what do you make of that? Dump Mulbn?

 

[Gibbke]

All the maligned Vic sides this year achieved decent membership rises, and all either made the eight or they played a lot better than in previous seasons...

The ABS will tell you Victoria's population is rising at a ridiculous rate, to the point where it's expected to become Australia's biggest city by 2050...

Melbourne and Victoria also happen to be Australian footy's strongest base, as if we didn't already know...

Three stupidly simple reasons as to why there is no need to be moving anyone along or bringing out the axe...you just can't dumb this stuff down any further...

 

[Gibbke]

May be washed up, but this makes eminent sense.

No other professional completion in the world has been able to merge and maintain a suburban league within a national (or allegedly National) completion.

GM knows this, but also is smart enough to know he needs to do it by stealth. Fund GWS and GC to dominate the comp and it won't matter if you try to tax the wealthy clubs to achieve equalisation. Long term lack of on-field success will inevitably bring the end of North, Saints and/or the Bullies. In this day and age without the suburban rivalries, parents ability to brainwash their children to follow a particular team is limited.

Not far off before the AFL goes for Sydney as the host of GF in order to expand the game and once this happens, the floodgates will open and many will be dancing on the rotting corpse of the VFL.

Don't think it will happen then tell me your thought you would see the AFL fund a western Sydney team and the GC for hundreds of millions!

One two-letter acronym dismantles nearly everything you've said above, or answers your own doubts...meditate on this and all will become clear...

TV.

 

[Gibbke]

Sinny v Wet toast GFs seemed to draw pretty well. I also saw a game at the G between Mulbn & Port which had 15k.
So what do you make of that? Dump Mulbn?

All GF's draw well. 100k will show up to the MCG in a fortnight even if GWS are playing Sydney. The point is not valid...

Vic home games v interstaters are consistently the lowest drawing games on the AFL calendar (ignoring GC and GWS), which tells you straight out that it's all about public appetite. That also says right there that axing Melbourne sides who will be playing other Melbourne sides is a decision not made in haste...

 

[madmug]

All GF's draw well. 100k will show up to the MCG in a fortnight even if GWS are playing Sydney. The point is not valid...

Vic home games v interstaters are consistently the lowest drawing games on the AFL calendar (ignoring GC and GWS), which tells you straight out that it's all about public appetite. That also says right there that axing Melbourne sides who will be playing other Melbourne sides is a decision not made in haste...

So we'll get rid of the 'interstate' clubs, bring back Fitzroy & the Swans, call it the VFL shall we? Then forget the TV rights & watch clubs go bankrupt again.

You cant have it both ways. Its either national, warts & all, or its a state based competition & will go the same way it did before.

 

[GreyCrow]

All GF's draw well. 100k will show up to the MCG in a fortnight even if GWS are playing Sydney. The point is not valid...

Vic home games v interstaters are consistently the lowest drawing games on the AFL calendar (ignoring GC and GWS), which tells you straight out that it's all about public appetite. That also says right there that axing Melbourne sides who will be playing other Melbourne sides is a decision not made in haste...

I will use my false economy line again. Just as we in the SANFL are currently dealing with the 2 AFL sides playing in the competition , us old diehards will eventually die off and there will be a group of supporters who wont know the SANFL as anything but Adelaide and Port supporters. Just as if those Melbourne clubs merge there will be a re-birth of new supporters. Yes short term there will be a lot of pain , and yes you are right commercial decisions will over ride any others , but to say '' well we cant because people will stop going to football'' is long term wrong. Using your 2050 example the kid born today will be the 33 yr old consumer of the new team. Those born after them will be the rest of the consumers.

 

[Craze]

Sinny v Wet toast GFs seemed to draw pretty well. I also saw a game at the G between Mulbn & Port which had 15k.
So what do you make of that? Dump Mulbn?

Yep, that wins the argument.

 

[Craze]

I will use my false economy line again. Just as we in the SANFL are currently dealing with the 2 AFL sides playing in the competition , us old diehards will eventually die off and there will be a group of supporters who wont know the SANFL as anything but Adelaide and Port supporters. Just as if those Melbourne clubs merge there will be a re-birth of new supporters. Yes short term there will be a lot of pain , and yes you are right commercial decisions will over ride any others , but to say '' well we cant because people will stop going to football'' is long term wrong. Using your 2050 example the kid born today will be the 33 yr old consumer of the new team. Those born after them will be the rest of the consumers.

Sorry, but this is garbage.

In 1996, Hawthorn came within a bees dick of merging with Melbourne. At the time, Hawthorn was broke, barely getting 20,000 to home games (at Waverley), considered a 'medium-sized' club at best, and the future looked very bleak indeed.

Flash forward 20 years, they're the biggest club in the AFL in terms of revenue, have 73,000 members, and play finals every year.

So my question is, why couldn't a St Kilda, Melbourne, North, or the Bulldogs do likewise from comparatively similar positions? Lucky we don't have people like you in charge of the show because we wouldn't have the patience to find out.

 

[Garlic muncher]

I am not in favour of moving any Melbourne clubs, swings and roundabouts IMO, ST kilda built up a 40,000 membership a few years ago, the weekly derbies in Melbourne help fund the game via TV deals etc, not only that but the history of the game and generational supporters may be lost if a Melbourne club is punted.

Bad move IMO.

 

[Roylion]

Should a Melbourne club go country / interstate / merge with interstate club.

There will never be another "merger" of a Melbourne based club with an non-Victorian club. The future for supporters of that Melbourne based club has already been written.

 

[GreyCrow]

Sorry, but this is garbage.

In 1996, Hawthorn came within a bees dick of merging with Melbourne. At the time, Hawthorn was broke, barely getting 20,000 to home games (at Waverley), considered a 'medium-sized' club at best, and the future looked very bleak indeed.

Flash forward 20 years, they're the biggest club in the AFL in terms of revenue, have 73,000 members, and play finals every year.

So my question is, why couldn't a St Kilda, Melbourne, North, or the Bulldogs do likewise from comparatively similar positions? Lucky we don't have people like you in charge of the show because we wouldn't have the patience to find out.

Boo hoo. Congrats on having a club that dragged itself from oblivion. That wasn't my point. I argued against your point of having Melbourne clubs needing other Melbourne clubs to get a ''good crowd''

Its a false position to take , its also selfish. If you trim the fat from Melbourne ( the city) by moving or culling then people will start following the new entity or the clubs will wait for those sooks to die off and entice the new breed who will start following the new entity as they have no other standard to go by. In your argument if the Melbourne Hawks had been formed you would now have 20 year olds following the club who would have no allegiance to either the Hawks or the Demons. This would be the future of the clubs. The Tassie Tigers and the Gold Coast Kangaroos would also have new followers and old followers ( or not) if they choose to do so.

And once again , your point is well made by saying short term commercial decisions will always outweigh long term strategic commercial decisions.

 

[madmug]

Sorry, but this is garbage.

In 1996, Hawthorn came within a bees dick of merging with Melbourne. At the time, Hawthorn was broke, barely getting 20,000 to home games (at Waverley), considered a 'medium-sized' club at best, and the future looked very bleak indeed.

Flash forward 20 years, they're the biggest club in the AFL in terms of revenue, have 73,000 members, and play finals every year.

So my question is, why couldn't a St Kilda, Melbourne, North, or the Bulldogs do likewise from comparatively similar positions? Lucky we don't have people like you in charge of the show because we wouldn't have the patience to find out.

Because they cant all do it. Thats the problem. Too many teams in one market is the reality. Look at the finances. Half of them are well below average income of the League. 3 of them havent won a flag this side of 50 years despite the draft to equalise the opportunities of clubs.

 

[Run n Spread]

Great idea. Move an established club, with supporters a proven tradition and established base and create another team and stick it in an outpost like Venezuela.

10 teams in Melbourne is far too many in one of the few truly football states in the world. But those Fijians/New Zealanders etc would love football after 50 years of throwing money at them and the ratings/TV rights and what again????

Wasn't Stephen hawking talking about Space exploration the other day. qucik stick a team on Mars before soccer or Rugby corner the market. I'm sure aliens or people will turn up one day.

 

[telsor]

So we'll get rid of the 'interstate' clubs, bring back Fitzroy & the Swans, call it the VFL shall we? Then forget the TV rights & watch clubs go bankrupt again.

You cant have it both ways. Its either national, warts & all, or its a state based competition & will go the same way it did before.

Yeah, lets go back to the VFL...

Which would also mean going back to the other states begging to be allowed into the VFL...

And to complete the repetition of history, that would be followed by fans of said beggars then insisting that the VFL change from what they were desperate to be a part of.

 

[madmug]

Yeah, lets go back to the VFL...

Which would also mean going back to the other states begging to be allowed into the VFL...

And to complete the repetition of history, that would be followed by fans of said beggars then insisting that the VFL change from what they were desperate to be a part of.

So what.
The VFL never listened to anyone then, nor the AFL now.
Anyway your comment is irrelevant to the conversation regards the state of club finances.

 

[Gibbke]

So we'll get rid of the 'interstate' clubs, bring back Fitzroy & the Swans, call it the VFL shall we? Then forget the TV rights & watch clubs go bankrupt again.

You cant have it both ways. Its either national, warts & all, or its a state based competition & will go the same way it did before.

I can't answer that first bit - I don't do "irrational". Noone said anything about getting rid of interstaters, for the very obvious and well documented fact that a national comp and the entire approach and rationale behind it is the reason the game has survived into this century without horrendous damage from the issues faced in the 1980's. "Forget tv rights"...huh...?!? None of this needs to be said yet again...

But you most certainly can have it both ways - it's what we've already got. Every damned wart that can possibly grow on the beast is there, through drafting, stadium deals, tv rights, and the complete subjugation of all other leagues under the banner of the AFL. The only vehicle with the ability to carry all of this was the ready made structure of the VFL - no stand alone breakaway comp could have ever done this, for the simple reason that fans would not ditch Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and half a dozen other sides to follow new Vic franchises, and no entity in footy had the power to oppose the VFL, during our lifetimes if not ever...

And right now, there's no reason to sacrifice anyone. You have no alternative that does anything except f### with things for no reasonable purpose. This weekend, we get the archetypical side who by the logic of people such as yourselves should not be there because they don't fit your criteria - the Dogs - up against the polar opposite in the Giants. They beat the self made triple premiership juggernaut who beat the rationalisation argument of 20 years ago and became the AFL's most signed up to club, and somewhere in there last weekend North Melbourne made yet another finals series. Every one of these sides recorded membership and attendance rises, alongside the Saints and Dees, and yet languishing down in the dungeons are the supposed Big 4, a core group of teams who were at the forefront of discussions when breakaway comps were all the rage in the early 1980's...

 

[Gibbke]

I will use my false economy line again. Just as we in the SANFL are currently dealing with the 2 AFL sides playing in the competition , us old diehards will eventually die off and there will be a group of supporters who wont know the SANFL as anything but Adelaide and Port supporters. Just as if those Melbourne clubs merge there will be a re-birth of new supporters. Yes short term there will be a lot of pain , and yes you are right commercial decisions will over ride any others , but to say '' well we cant because people will stop going to football'' is long term wrong. Using your 2050 example the kid born today will be the 33 yr old consumer of the new team. Those born after them will be the rest of the consumers.

Inconsistently true in a long term sense. 30 years after their admission, interstate teams still are not drawing the same crowds to Melbourne matches as established Victorian rivals, and this is despite ladder position - Freo weren't a drawcard whichever end of the ladder they sat on in the last two seasons...

But yeah, sure, when we're all old and f###ed with cobwebs on our arses, the youngsters will be - possibly, because we're totally ignoring the psychology which goes into footy tribalism in the first place, and that most certainly is a juicy target for a PhD thesis - turning up to see new sides with brand spanking new chrome plated finishes on their jumpers, and maybe even Big Bash style carefully market researched nicknames...whatever...remind me why we're killing off teams again...?

 

[GreyCrow]

Inconsistently true in a long term sense. 30 years after their admission, interstate teams still are not drawing the same crowds to Melbourne matches as established Victorian rivals, and this is despite ladder position - Freo weren't a drawcard whichever end of the ladder they sat on in the last two seasons...

Then why ask us to compete? Money.