Toast Welcome Ben Jarman - Rookie F/S Selection

[WaynesWorld19]

Sorry - correction

It was actually 3.036 which was in top 53% - not too bad at all

The beep test was 12.7

Meanwhile Sharenberg ran a 12.5 beep- surely he was injured !!!
sorry correction see above

Can someone explain ...in a game of football, how much difference in getting the ball, evading an opponent, tackling, or getting an effective disposal off, does 1 sec make?

2.94 sec v 3.03 seconds .......
Don't understand the fixation on that 1 second .....IMO i've seen players like Tambling who was super quick, look slow in the footy ground and get continually caught ......and i've seen slow players who opponents can't lay a finger on ??

 

[Bicks]

Can someone explain ...in a game of football, how much difference in getting the ball, evading an opponent, tackling, or getting an effective disposal off, does 1 sec make?

2.94 sec v 3.03 seconds .......
Don't understand the fixation on that 1 second .....IMO i've seen players like Tambling who was super quick, look slow in the footy ground and get continually caught ......and i've seen slow players who opponents can't lay a finger on ??

Usain Bolt 100 metres in 9.58 secs = 10+ metres

So an AFL footballer say 12 secs = 8+ metres ????

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Usain Bolt 100 metres in 9.58 secs = 10+ metres

So an AFL footballer say 12 secs = 8+ metres ????

Thanks for that ......and great if they run in a straight line on a running track, and are called Usain Bolt

But footballers learn not to run straight lines when escaping a tackler, or getting to the player with the ball, or cutting off a lead ......so if an average AFL footballer, not running straight lines, i'm not sure a 1.2 sec diff makes that much difference ???

 

[DD#23]

Thanks for that ......and great if they run in a straight line on a running track, and are called Usain Bolt

But footballers learn not to run straight lines when escaping a tackler, or getting to the player with the ball, or cutting off a lead ......so if an average AFL footballer, not running straight lines, i'm not sure a 1.2 sec diff makes that much difference ???

1.2 seconds difference would be about 5 metres, huge distance. You do realise Ben was only one tenth of a second slower? 2.94 v 3.03 seconds.

the big difference for me isn't so much straight lines but speed of mind. Easy to run fast in a test when its all you have to think about, little bit harder while you're trying to receive the ball and process both your passing options by hand and foot as well as tackling threats from the opposition.

its a hell of a lot easier chasing in most cases. Dangerfield has won every Grand Final sprint he's been in by a street, but he's been on the receiving end of plenty of run-down tackles.

 

[Thylacinus]

Ben's speed is close to average for an AFL player. It is his tank, as revealed by the beep test figures, that is the major concern. How much can he improve this or how much is limited by genetics is the question that time will tell, assuming the dedication is there.

 

[baldandbroke]

Ben's speed is close to average for an AFL player. It is his tank, as revealed by the beep test figures, that is the major concern. How much can he improve this or how much is limited by genetics is the question that time will tell, assuming the dedication is there.

I hope we don't try and make him a machine. There are plenty of examples in the AFL of less than perfect athletes that dominate the game.

He needs to be fit enough that he can play the game through - and let his other qualities shine. He doesn't need to be a running machine or a fitness god.

David Mackay vs Eddie Betts anyone - reckon Eddie would win any of the fitness tests against Dmac?

 

[Mismatched]

Ben's speed is close to average for an AFL player. It is his tank, as revealed by the beep test figures, that is the major concern. How much can he improve this or how much is limited by genetics is the question that time will tell, assuming the dedication is there.

Endurance is generally the one area you can achieve significant gains, it's obviously easier for some than others and some start at a higher base. Bens beep test etc will improve significantly at an AFL club if he has the right attirude.

Can someone explain ...in a game of football, how much difference in getting the ball, evading an opponent, tackling, or getting an effective disposal off, does 1 sec make?

2.94 sec v 3.03 seconds .......
Don't understand the fixation on that 1 second .....IMO i've seen players like Tambling who was super quick, look slow in the footy ground and get continually caught ......and i've seen slow players who opponents can't lay a finger on ??

You've hit the nail on the head WW, this testing counts for little if a player doesn't understand how to use their pace, or others described it as speed of mind.

Brodie Smith tested horribly in the 20m sprint, yet for the most part is a quick player. I think Rhett Biglands was faster than Andy McLeod in testing over 20 meters, yet McLeod was the one chasing opponents down and breaking away with elite speed.

Testing only counts for so much, if you can't apply it during a game it's useless.

 

[Jeffcrowe]

I hope we don't try and make him a machine. There are plenty of examples in the AFL of less than perfect athletes that dominate the game.

He needs to be fit enough that he can play the game through - and let his other qualities shine. He doesn't need to be a running machine or a fitness god.

David Mackay vs Eddie Betts anyone - reckon Eddie would win any of the fitness tests against Dmac?

Disagree there

For a 176cm with average speed he needs to be in top 20 % of endurance athletes in game ( see Caleb Daniel)

Skill and footy brain at elite level is not enough on its own

 

[Deaneus!]

Can someone explain ...in a game of football, how much difference in getting the ball, evading an opponent, tackling, or getting an effective disposal off, does 1 sec make?

2.94 sec v 3.03 seconds .......
Don't understand the fixation on that 1 second .....IMO i've seen players like Tambling who was super quick, look slow in the footy ground and get continually caught ......and i've seen slow players who opponents can't lay a finger on ??

Exactly

If the ball is loose 20m away and two blokes with these speeds go for it, one will make it there first by 0.09 seconds. Is that really enough time to do something useful?

 

[Deaneus!]

Also I think this testing can expose obvious deficits in a player but FMD I don't think the AFL is mature enough yet with the thinking around how to apply testing - or at least, the fans aren't

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Exactly

If the ball is loose 20m away and two blokes with these speeds go for it, one will make it there first by 0.09 seconds. Is that really enough time to do something useful?

IMO you can't be a draft horse though, however agility and endurance are more important

Atkins has that agility, and he isn't quick ......it's just that he takes small steps, and his legs moving quickly with small steps make him look quick

Smith has big mtrs gained, but he's not quick, but has great evasive skills

 

[spexau]

Smith is quick

 

[BunjiMac]

Smith is quick

Agreed, Smith is definitely quick.

 

[Brentmeister]

Exactly

If the ball is loose 20m away and two blokes with these speeds go for it, one will make it there first by 0.09 seconds. Is that really enough time to do something useful?

I'd rather get to the ball 0.09 seconds before my opponent than 0.09 after. Getting first hands on the ball is crucial.

 

[the universal]

Endurance is generally the one area you can achieve significant gains, it's obviously easier for some than others and some start at a higher base. Bens beep test etc will improve significantly at an AFL club if he has the right attirude.



You've hit the nail on the head WW, this testing counts for little if a player doesn't understand how to use their pace, or others described it as speed of mind.

Brodie Smith tested horribly in the 20m sprint, yet for the most part is a quick player. I think Rhett Biglands was faster than Andy McLeod in testing over 20 meters, yet McLeod was the one chasing opponents down and breaking away with elite speed.

Testing only counts for so much, if you can't apply it during a game it's useless.

Brad Moran was supposed to be quick but I barely recall any instance of it in a match situation, for instance.

 

[Deaneus!]

I'd rather get to the ball 0.09 seconds before my opponent than 0.09 after. Getting first hands on the ball is crucial.

Sure, that's easy to say. Everyone wants to be first.

The problem is it's such a superficial analysis.

Let's work the problem the other way.

It takes the first guy 2.94s to get to the ball. Therefore he has travelled at 6.8027m/s

The other guy runs 20m in 3.03, so he's traveling at 6.6007m/s. By the time the first bloke gets to the ball he's only made 19.41m.

So a 0.09 split in time equates to 59cm over 20m

It could probably be argued that let's say two feet is within reach of the first player; plus as soon as you pick up the ball you lose the conservation of momentum from swinging your arms while you run (note to self: find out if this has ever been quantified).

I'd wager those times are 20m from a standing start, which almost never happens on a football field too.

Raw speed is great but let's not pretend there are other factors which are important too

 

[Jarman3]

It takes the first guy 2.94s to get to the ball. Therefore he has travelled at 6.8027m/s

The other guy runs 20m in 3.03, so he's traveling at 6.6007m/s. By the time the first bloke gets to the ball he's only made 19.41m.

I think we need some more information to be able to do this properly. What time did the first player's train leave the station? And what direction was it travelling in? Is the second player's train travelling in the same direction or coming from the opposite direction?

And how many cantaloupes do they have?

I'm feeling confused...

 

[Deaneus!]

I did not adjust calculations to take into account cantaloupes.

 

[ad victoriam]

Funny been reading a lot of discussions about take off speed, raw speed, So I thought I put my 2 cents in
The 20m sprint is a good measure and can be an import measure. as it what we want in a Forward, a Defender, a Midfielder question is why,
The Forward- quick of mark means that 1/2m lead turns into a 2m lead.
The Defender - stay with his forward on the lead and good close down speed
The Midfielder- Burst thru pack, that 10th of a second could be the difference between solid tackle or grab or a loose tackle, 10th is a distance from elbow to hand in a tight contest that a tackle.
Also agility, surprise they don't highlight alternate foot take off for the 20m sprints which are very important in agility.
And trust me it just as hard to teach someone to move fast and change direction than teach them skills.

 

[earlsta]

Repeat sprints are the key.
One 20m sprint doesn't really factor in the fatigue of the athlete.
Some players won't be running at max speed in the final quarter.

 

[1970crow]

One thing that can be gathered from the beep test results is that whoever gets the best score in a given year usually becomes only mediocre at best

Not just beep tests.

 

[baldandbroke]

Disagree there

For a 176cm with average speed he needs to be in top 20 % of endurance athletes in game ( see Caleb Daniel)

Skill and footy brain at elite level is not enough on its own

I'm not sure top 20% is elite / fitness god / running machine Look, I don't think his skills alone will cover poor fitness or endurance ... but we need to judge him on the entirety of what he brings to the game. Was Ben in the top 20% in the lower comps because he seemed to cope ok against guys that were stronger and fitter and could run more. I feel a bit the same about Menzel and Hampton, I couldn't give a rats toss about their numbers, I want to see what they can do in game. Of course they need to reach a base level - but ask Kerridge how much elite fitness and running equate to AFL success.

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think we need athletes to push footballers out of spots at the AFC

 

[Jeffcrowe]

I'm not sure top 20% is elite / fitness god / running machine Look, I don't think his skills alone will cover poor fitness or endurance ... but we need to judge him on the entirety of what he brings to the game. Was Ben in the top 20% in the lower comps because he seemed to cope ok against guys that were stronger and fitter and could run more. I feel a bit the same about Menzel and Hampton, I couldn't give a rats toss about their numbers, I want to see what they can do in game. Of course they need to reach a base level - but ask Kerridge how much elite fitness and running equate to AFL success.

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think we need athletes to push footballers out of spots at the AFC

The difference is that jars is 176cm with average speed

If he was quick and agile eg betts or Cameron then fitness is less important and if he was 187cm ( like Hampton) but with his Jarman elite skills and decision making then it wouldn't matter as much either

At 176cm with average speed and not being a beast physically he needs to be able to run in top 5-10 at the club at least otherwise he won't get anywhere in AFL

He could survive at junior level but that's against his own age group , different story altogether

 

[Pugsley]

A wombat on heat can match Usain Bolt. Lets just think about that for a moment

 

[Shaz2012]

The difference is that jars is 176cm with average speed

If he was quick and agile eg betts or Cameron then fitness is less important and if he was 187cm ( like Hampton) but with his Jarman elite skills and decision making then it wouldn't matter as much either

At 176cm with average speed and not being a beast physically he needs to be able to run in top 5-10 at the club at least otherwise he won't get anywhere in AFL

He could survive at junior level but that's against his own age group , different story altogether

All true. If his surname was anything else, he would not be on the list. But, there is always going to be a place in AFL football for a player with elite skills, elite decision making and who can find the footy. Can he get into positions to receive the ball and then do damage with it? I think we have done the right thing by taking a punt on this kid. I am also extremely confident that he will be a great player for us. It may be wishful thinking, but having seen the kids highlights, I think he has got it. Lets see if he can do the hard work now, if he can build up his tank and fill out to a good size, then we will see how he goes.