Who's the best Indigenous player ever?

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TheArchitect said:
Buddy the best I’ve seen with Goodes second.

On last night - Buddy is still genuine box-office at 35. Great to see
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Agree buddy and Goodes best two. I’d go Goodes at one, could and did play ever where. Watching him go head to head with Judd in 06 was great to watch.
 
masai tu said:
What a load of crap.

As stated earlier, Polly was one of the initial inductions to Legend Status in the AFL Hall of Fame.

Me thinks that shows that he is Regularly talked about as in the best of the best.
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He was the best of the best in the 20th century, not anymore. Many players from this century have gone past him. People’s nostalgia is getting in the way of an objective view. I’d rather have prime Nic Nat, Gawn, Grundy and Cox over him personally and they aren’t top 20 of all time and that’s just the ruckmen.
 

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Falcon3518 said:
Put it this way. People talk about Buddy being in the top 5 or top 10 of all time. I’ve never heard anybody put Polly in the top 20.
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Falcon3518 said:
He was the best of the best in the 20th century, not anymore. Many players from this century have gone past him. People’s nostalgia is getting in the way of an objective view. I’d rather have prime Nic Nat, Gawn, Grundy and Cox over him personally and they aren’t top 20 of all time and that’s just the ruckmen.
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I saw Polly play. All of the ruckmen you mentioned are great players but I have never seen them leap at a ruck contest, grab the ball and before they have landed fire out a 25m handball to their teammate running at full speed.

When any ruckmen can do that they can be spoken about in the same terms as Polly.
 
Soggy2112 said:
Is this in order?

Because there’s no way Cyril is better than McLeod.
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I think its just a list in no random order.

Having watched Cable, the Krakouers, Rioli sr and then everyone that followed ...

Goodes and Mcleod are ahead of Buddy in the AFL era. Buddy is a great player but the other two could win matches themselves regularly and Buddy just hasn't done that. You compare him to Wayne carey (who was considered indigenous by the blackfellas he played with cos they knew his family ties) who would pick North up and carry them time and again ... Buddy just doesn't have it in him to do that. (Great career tho. Would have loved him at North.) people used to be scared of what Carey might do when they played us. They are still scarred by that in many cases. Buddy never inspired that fear AFAIK.

McLeod did (the bastard... lol, still bitter 24years later.) If Adelaide were stronger in the 00's he might be considered the GOAT himself.
 
HalloweenJack said:
I saw Polly play. All of the ruckmen you mentioned are great players but I have never seen them leap at a ruck contest, grab the ball and before they have landed fire out a 25m handball to their teammate running at full speed.

When any ruckmen can do that they can be spoken about in the same terms as Polly.
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Daniel Wells did this once and its one of the best goals I've ever seen:



What you're describing actually sounds a bit better.
 
ferball said:
I think its just a list in no random order.

Having watched Cable, the Krakouers, Rioli sr and then everyone that followed ...

Goodes and Mcleod are ahead of Buddy in the AFL era. Buddy is a great player but the other two could win matches themselves regularly and Buddy just hasn't done that. You compare him to Wayne carey (who was considered indigenous by the blackfellas he played with cos they knew his family ties) who would pick North up and carry them time and again ... Buddy just doesn't have it in him to do that. (Great career tho. Would have loved him at North.) people used to be scared of what Carey might do when they played us. They are still scarred by that in many cases. Buddy never inspired that fear AFAIK.

McLeod did (the bastard... lol, still bitter 24years later.) If Adelaide were stronger in the 00's he might be considered the GOAT himself.
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Buddy literally just kicked 5 of the Swans last 11 goals as they come from 5 goals down to win on Friday.

At 35 years old.

What do you mean he doesn’t have it in him?
 
ferball said:
I think its just a list in no random order.

Having watched Cable, the Krakouers, Rioli sr and then everyone that followed ...

Goodes and Mcleod are ahead of Buddy in the AFL era. Buddy is a great player but the other two could win matches themselves regularly and Buddy just hasn't done that. You compare him to Wayne carey (who was considered indigenous by the blackfellas he played with cos they knew his family ties) who would pick North up and carry them time and again ... Buddy just doesn't have it in him to do that. (Great career tho. Would have loved him at North.) people used to be scared of what Carey might do when they played us. They are still scarred by that in many cases. Buddy never inspired that fear AFAIK.

McLeod did (the bastard... lol, still bitter 24years later.) If Adelaide were stronger in the 00's he might be considered the GOAT himself.
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I tend to agree with this.

I always wondered if I was missing something regarding Buddy. I know he has torn games apart, but not really in a consistent way. He can drop out of games, whereas guys like Carey would find ways to have an influence even when having a rare off day. His 2008 was pretty extraordinary though.

I’d take Goodes ahead of him, and probably Macleod too.
 
ferball said:
Daniel Wells did this once and its one of the best goals I've ever seen:



What you're describing actually sounds a bit better.
Click to expand...

It is one of the greatest goals, no doubt.

The indigenous players all seem to have that x factor and when they turn it on it's magical.

A few posters have mentioned T.I. (Stephen Michael) and how great he was. It is a pity he never had the desire to play VFL because he would have shown the Victorian public exactly how special a player he was.

I have always rated Polly as the best footballer I have seen and T.I. is number 2 then Carey and Ablett Snr.
 
HalloweenJack said:
It is one of the greatest goals, no doubt.

The indigenous players all seem to have that x factor and when they turn it on it's magical.

A few posters have mentioned T.I. (Stephen Michael) and how great he was. It is a pity he never had the desire to play VFL because he would have shown the Victorian public exactly how special a player he was.

I have always rated Polly as the best footballer I have seen and T.I. is number 2 then Carey and Ablett Snr.
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Crikey. That is seriously high praise. Makes me wish I’d seen them play
 
ferball said:
I think its just a list in no random order.

Having watched Cable, the Krakouers, Rioli sr and then everyone that followed ...

Goodes and Mcleod are ahead of Buddy in the AFL era. Buddy is a great player but the other two could win matches themselves regularly and Buddy just hasn't done that. You compare him to Wayne carey (who was considered indigenous by the blackfellas he played with cos they knew his family ties) who would pick North up and carry them time and again ... Buddy just doesn't have it in him to do that. (Great career tho. Would have loved him at North.) people used to be scared of what Carey might do when they played us. They are still scarred by that in many cases. Buddy never inspired that fear AFAIK.

McLeod did (the bastard... lol, still bitter 24years later.) If Adelaide were stronger in the 00's he might be considered the GOAT himself.
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So let me get this right. Franklin has kicked over 1000 goals. but has never really won games off his own boot. That is a feat on its own.
 
sdfc said:
So let me get this right. Franklin has kicked over 1000 goals. but has never really won games off his own boot. That is a feat on its own.
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I didn't say never (he kicked 27 goals against us once) but I will now - I've never thought he was as much of a match winner as a bunch of other players. He has been at the Swans for a decade and they've never won a flag with him there.

They did lose two Grannies in that time. If he'd won them just one of them it would be a different story.
 

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ferball said:
I didn't say never (he kicked 27 goals against us once) but I will now - I've never thought he was as much of a match winner as a bunch of other players. He has been at the Swans for a decade and they've never won a flag with him there.

They did lose two Grannies in that time. If he'd won them just one of them it would be a different story.
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Played well in both losing GFs though.
 
HalloweenJack said:
It is one of the greatest goals, no doubt.

The indigenous players all seem to have that x factor and when they turn it on it's magical.

A few posters have mentioned T.I. (Stephen Michael) and how great he was. It is a pity he never had the desire to play VFL because he would have shown the Victorian public exactly how special a player he was.

I have always rated Polly as the best footballer I have seen and T.I. is number 2 then Carey and Ablett Snr.
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With the greatest respect in the world, how can someone with a grand total of 0 games at the highest level be considered the best of all time.

Didn’t have the mentality to be the best if he didn’t want to play in the big time.

Polly was a revolutionary player and I get why he would be considered one of the greats, but IMO, Tony Lockett and Wayne Carey are the best footballers I have seen. Sr a whisker behind.

In any conditions, off either foot, speed, power and insane presence.

I wonder what these three would have done to the WAFL.
 
ferball said:
I didn't say never (he kicked 27 goals against us once) but I will now - I've never thought he was as much of a match winner as a bunch of other players. He has been at the Swans for a decade and they've never won a flag with him there.

They did lose two Grannies in that time. If he'd won them just one of them it would be a different story.
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2016 he hurt his knee early, still battled on but clearly wasn’t right. Even then he played pretty well.

2014 he kicked four, in a team that had 150 less disposals and 20 less inside 50s. That’s a match winning performance if any of his teammates came to the party.

Funnily enough you brought up Carey as being a match winner in the way Buddy supposedly isn’t, yet in the same paragraph you mention the 1998 GF, where one of the main reasons we won was because Caven kept Carey quiet?
 
Soggy2112 said:
2016 he hurt his knee early, still battled on but clearly wasn’t right. Even then he played pretty well.

2014 he kicked four, in a team that had 150 less disposals and 20 less inside 50s. That’s a match winning performance if any of his teammates came to the party.

Funnily enough you brought up Carey as being a match winner in the way Buddy supposedly isn’t, yet in the same paragraph you mention the 1998 GF, where one of the main reasons we won was because Caven kept Carey quiet?
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What is this 1998 you are talking about?
 
Seriously tho,

In 1998 Carey kicked 1 goal 4. Most of them in the first half. At HT it was 6/15 to 4/3, we were smashing you lot and Carey was dominating but missing everything. If we'd kicked straight it would have been game over at half time. Full credit for the awesome come back tho, as hard as it is to admit it, plenty of sides woulkdn't have come back from there.

But that's the point. If he'd kicked straight then we would have won. He set the tone for the game and that tone was half arsed. Many of our best players followed his example and missed easy goals - Belly (1.3), Corza (0.2), Grant (0.2), Blakey (1,3), Doc Sholl (0.2).

Buddy doesn't have that sort of leadership quality. I also can't see him doing what Andrew McLeod (who is one of my all time favorite players despite that day,) did that day.

A funny thing happened that day. I used to live in an epic spot. Definitely an old sacred site and some wild things happened there, especially when local (ie really local, not just the language group/nation) blackfellas would drop round. During that game, at half time, about 30 king crows landed in the paddock by the house and started squarking like a pack of bastards. It was weird as and I knew what would happen after that. Horrible sinking feeling in my guts as they just wouldn't * off.

Sure enough....
 
Falcon3518 said:
He was the best of the best in the 20th century, not anymore. Many players from this century have gone past him. People’s nostalgia is getting in the way of an objective view. I’d rather have prime Nic Nat, Gawn, Grundy and Cox over him personally and they aren’t top 20 of all time and that’s just the ruckmen.
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You can only look at what the game was at the time someone played.

There isn't a player in the the AFL system today that isn't fitter, stronger for their size and has more stamina than any of the guys that played in the amateur era. And things have evolved significantly during the AFL era as well.

Polly Farmer dominated and changed the game like no other individual. He gets it for me.
Stephen Michael is the best to not cross from state league to VFL/AFL.
Barry Cable just better than anyone else in his position at the time.
McLeaod has a resume like few others. Goodes close but McLeod beats him for me for his ability to break the heart of the opposition.
Peter Matera could rip a game apart like few others. How he didn't win a Brownlow is beyond me.
Buddy in the modern era.

And there is a hell of a list of others that were just super players.
Krakouer x 2.
Long.
O'Loughlin
Chris Lewis
and so on
 
Djaran Whyman.
 
Back One Out said:
It's an insult to Polly Farmer and Buddy Franklin to have Stephen Michael ahead of them. That's just objectively wrong.

I also think you are underrating Andrew McLeod. I'm guessing you didn't see much of him from 1997 to 2003 when he was at his peak. He was the Adelaide Crows' greatest ever footballer, just ahead of Mark Ricciuto and Patrick Dangerfield.

Jim Krakouer was a great rover, tough and brilliant, but I'd have at least a dozen players ahead of him. His brother Phil wouldn't be in my Top 20. He was a handy half forward who kicked some brilliant goals, but he wasn't a consistent match winner.

  1. Polly Farmer (WAFL, Geel)
  2. Buddy Franklin (Haw, Syd)
  3. Barry Cable (WAFL, NM)
  4. Andrew McLeod (Adel)
  5. Stephen Michael (WAFL)
  6. Peter Matera (WCE)
  7. Adam Goodes (Syd)
  8. Maurice Rioli (WAFL, Rich)
  9. Cyril Rioli (Haw)
  10. Shaun Burgoyne (Port, Haw)
  11. Gavin Wanganeen (Ess, Port)
  12. Nicky Winmar (St K)
  13. Jim Krakouer (WAFL, NM)
  14. Eddie Betts (Carl, Adel)
  15. Mick O'Loughlin (Syd)
  16. Shane Edwards (Rich)
  17. Michael Long (Ess)
  18. Peter Burgoyne (Port)
  19. Charlie Cameron (Adel, Bris)
  20. Steven May (GC, Melb)
  21. Chris Johnson (Fitz, Bris)
  22. Chad Wingard (Port, Haw)
  23. Paddy Ryder (Ess, Port, St K)
  24. Syd Jackson (Carl)
  25. Jeff Farmer (Melb, Freo)
  26. Mark Naley (SANFL, Carl)
  27. Michael Walters (Freo)
  28. Norm McDonald (Ess)
  29. Bill Dempsey (WAFL)
  30. Chris Lewis (WCE)
  31. Byron Pickett (NM, Port, Melb)
  32. David Wirrpanda (WCE)
  33. David Kantilla (SANFL)
  34. Ted Kilmurray (WAFL)
  35. Gary Malarkey (Geel)
  36. Shai Bolton (Rich)
  37. Phil Krakouer (WAFL, NM)
  38. Michael Johnson (Freo)
  39. Darryl White (Bris)
  40. Daniel Wells (NM, Coll)
  41. Michael Mitchell (WAFL, Rich)
  42. Derek Kickett (NM, Ess, Syd)
  43. Stephen Hill (Freo)
  44. Brad Hill (Haw, Freo, St K)
  45. Leon Davis (Coll)
  46. Mick McLean (Foots, Bris)
  47. Jarrod Harbrow (WB, GC)
  48. Liam Jurrah (Melb)
  49. Liam Ryan (WCE)
  50. Phil Matera (WCE)
  51. Graham Johncock (Adel)
  52. Dean Rioli (Ess)
  53. Zac Wiliams (GWS, Carl)
  54. Kevin Taylor (WAFL)
  55. Lindsay Thomas (NM)
  56. Mathew Stokes (Geel)
  57. Danyle Pearce (Port, Freo)
  58. Lewis Jetta (Syd, WCE)
  59. Sam Powell-Pepper (Port)
  60. Steven Motlop (Geel, Port)
  61. Aaron Davey (Melb)
  62. Ronnie Burns (Geel)
  63. Roger Hayden (Freo)
  64. Neville Jetta (Melb)
  65. Dale Kickett (Freo)
  66. Daniel Motlop (NM, Port)
  67. Jeff Garlett (Carl, Melb)
  68. Mark Williams (Haw)
  69. Andrew Walker (Carl)
  70. Chance Bateman (Haw)
  71. Travis Varcoe (Geel)
  72. Winston Abraham (NM)
  73. Ashley McGrath (Bris)
  74. Gilbert McAdam (St K)
  75. Matthew Whelan (Melb)
  76. Robbie Muir (St K)
  77. Liam Jones (WB, Carl)
  78. Antoni Grover (Freo)
  79. Troy Cook (Syd, Freo)
  80. Des Headland (Bris, Freo)
  81. Justin Murphy (Carl)
  82. Allen Christenson (Geel, Bris)
  83. Jamie Lawson (Syd)
  84. Willie Rioli (WCE)
  85. Brandon Matera (GC, Freo)
  86. Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti (Ess)
  87. Nathan Wilson (GWS, Freo)
  88. Jarman Impey (Port, Haw)
  89. Andy Lovell (Melb)
  90. Phil Egan (Rich)
  91. Daniel Rioli (Rich)
  92. Phil Narkle (WAFL, St K)
  93. Andrew Krakouer (Rich, Coll)
  94. Harley Bennell (GC)
  95. Chris Yarran (Carl)
  96. Les Bamblett (Melb, Foots)
  97. Josh Hill (WB, WCE)
  98. Sharrod Wellingham (Coll, WCE)
  99. Sean Charles (Melb)
  100. Troy Bond (Carl)
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Err why is this objectively wrong? I have been present at a footy lunch where Polly rated Stephen Michael as one of the greatest. Having watched Stephen live he is the best easily and if that upsets your thoughts that the WAFL wasnt a great comp then grow up. Michael dominated state of origin and proved himself against the best. I have seen all those players mentioned and if you think TI doesnt rate then you dont have a clue old son.
 
Liam Jurrah made some bad mistakes and I hope he’s grown from them but I always thought he would’ve been a 500 goal player.
 
Soggy2112 said:
Buddy literally just kicked 5 of the Swans last 11 goals as they come from 5 goals down to win on Friday.

At 35 years old.

What do you mean he doesn’t have it in him?
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Its the exception not the rule.
 
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