Will we see a move back to smaller mids in the future?

[Bianconeri]

I often wonder if some of the champions of past eras who were terrific footballers but maybe not athletes would have been drafted these days

Does an 18 yr old Darren Jarman get drafted today? Does the Tony Lockett of the 80s get drafted?

If he does is he still a superstar or a Ginnivan level player?

 

[Cleric]

I often wonder if some of the champions of past eras who were terrific footballers but maybe not athletes would have been drafted these days

Does an 18 yr old Darren Jarman get drafted today? Does the Tony Lockett of the 80s get drafted?

Darren Jarman wouldn't get drafted due to his attitude and work ethic. I spoke to Dipper about him and he said that he was Darren's training buddy when he first got to Hawthorn. Apparently Darren was so lazy, and his work ethic so poor that Dipper went to the coaching staff and said that he didn't think Darren would cut it, and even asked to not be his training buddy anymore because he was so bad.
He then said they brought the footies out and Darren did some ridiculous s**t kicking the ball and Dipper shook his head and said to the coaches, forget what I said, he is a freak.

 

[deck]

View attachment 1700219

He's not really what the thread is about. He is slightly taller than average height in overall male population. Still plenty of midfielders getting around at his height. It's the blokes who are short that are struggling to make it these days.

 

[ferball]

The one advantage shorter mids have is a lower centre of gravity, hence better balance. This is an asset in a contested contact sport. The great shorter players have all had great balance and were hard to knock off their feet- Baldock, Skilton, Stewart, GAJ, Diesel, Lethal, Mitchell, Dale Weightman etc. To me, this will always keep little guys as valuable midfielders.

You can't compare the likes of Richards, Skilton, Weightman, Krakouer etc to GAJ unless you're arguing that smaller old school rovers have grown alot bigger. Ablett Jr is nearly five inches taller than Weightman.

 

[Some Idiot]

Back in the day the smaller, in and out midfielders were quite important to the make up of every AFL team.
Players like Tony Francis, Tony McGuinness, Platten, Tony Liberatore and co were some of the stars of the competition. They were hard to tackle, they were nippy and always seemed to be able to rest in the forward line and rove off the bigger forwards and kick goals.

In the last decade we have seen a rush towards mids that are over 190cms, spurred on by the likes of Josh Kennedy, Cripps and Bont, while talented mids in the under 180cms height are often not drafted.

Now that we have a taller average midfield compared to the older days, maybe a few smaller, zippy mids could well make a comeback? They would be harder to tackle, get in and under better, and also be able to take the role small forward as well.
We are starting to see some of the small forwards like Charlie Cameron, Kosi Pickett, Izak Rankine and Josh Rochelle getting more time in the midfield, so maybe they can demonstrate the benefits of a smaller, quicker mid in the centre.

Does anyone really think that if John Platten, or Tony McGuinness were playing in 2023 they wouldn't be as good as they were back then?

I'd probably argue that the tall midfielder trend started with guys like Judd and Deledio. The thing about them was that they were two of the fastest players in the league at the time as well. So while speed and agility is important, clubs will keep looking for midfielders that combine height and size with that speed and agility.

 

[master bate]

Stand rule has eased some midfield congestion. The umps have cracked down on holding (a little). Pace and fitness requirements have gone right up as transition speed improves. And tackling is getting harder and harder as now there's 1 sling tackle suspension a game.

But you still need to shrug and fend tackle and mids that have that pure power like Dusty, Danger, Bont, De Goey, Petracca will still be the most valuable. Much harder to do that at 180cm than it is 187cm just on mass alone. Not to mention the ability to take a contested mark or even just a mark on a lead that's harder to spoil

I've always thought the ultimate on-ball mix is like a basketball side. A ruck - that's the centre. A 190cm power forward who might be your tagger, or even bigger with a Blicavs if you've got one. Your star small forward who's 185-190cm. A big shooting guard at 183-187cm who ideally can do a bit of everything. A point guard in and under or controlling things.

And taller wingers will always be at an advantage if they can run with the smaller ones. 188+cm with range type winger is what every side wants because at that height they can intercept mark or spoil taller players whilst still running with smaller wings.

 

[Shane Heard]

Will Snelling

11

Will Snelling

Age

26

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175cm

Wt

79kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

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Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

4.7

2star

HB

9.4

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

4.8

5star

G

0.8

4star

D

12.6

3star

K

4.3

2star

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8.3

4star

M

1.3

1star

T

5.6

5star

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0.4

3star

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16.2

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5.2

2star

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11.0

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M

2.4

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3.8

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1.2

4star

vs Josh Daicos

7

Josh Daicos

Age

25

Ht

178cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

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Last 5

D

15.6

4star

K

8.3

3star

HB

7.3

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.6

5star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.2

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.5

4star

CL

1.5

4star

D

13.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

1.2

4star

is a good example of mids under 6’1 playing senior league footy and playing their role in the team with Daicos the one in consistent good form.

..based on skills alone there’s a stark difference between the two.

JD 178cm / 5’10 has superb kicking skills, very good handball skills, evades beautifully and sizes up situations quickly with lightning quick disposals. His spot in the Pie side is cemented.

Snelling on the other hand ..175cm/ 5’9 has skill levels below Daicos and just hasn’t got that polish and classy movement that stands out. He struggles to cement a spot in the side because he just can’t reach that consistency at elite level because he gets caught with the ball often, fumbles and his kicking doesn’t always hit the target.

If they were both 6’1 & 6’2..would that make a difference to their skills?

Probably not.

Nick Hind

19

Nick Hind

Age

29

Ht

180cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

D/F

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10.7

3star

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7.2

3star

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3.5

3star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.9

4star

MG

117.0

2star

D

9.5

2star

K

4.0

1star

HB

5.5

3star

M

2.0

2star

T

2.0

3star

MG

117.0

2star

D

10.2

3star

K

7.2

3star

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3.0

3star

M

2.0

3star

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2.2

4star

is another in our side who is 180cm/ 5’11 and has to compete and win the ball in the frantic halfback/mid zone. If he was 2 or 3 inches taller it wouldn’t matter. Because his skills are mediocre 50% of the time and he fumbles and gets caught in traffic when the heat is on.
Hence why he also is a fringe player and Josh ain’t.

 

[Sphynx]

I'd probably argue that the tall midfielder trend started with guys like Judd and Deledio. The thing about them was that they were two of the fastest players in the league at the time as well. So while speed and agility is important, clubs will keep looking for midfielders that combine height and size with that speed and agility.

The first real KPP conversion to star taller midfielder really began with Koutoufides. James Hird also to an extent.

Judd was really the evolution of these two. But again, Judd was always a midfielder at junior level.

Hird and Kouta were both CHB’s at stages.

Adam Goodes and Matthew Pavlich are better examples than Judd as the torch bearers from Hird and Kouta imo.

Which has then evolved into the Fyfe era, then into the Bont/Cripps era.

Pre Fyfe, most kids that height were still played as 3rd talls at junior level and converted to mids (Goodes was a ruck, Pavlich a KPD) . Post Fyfe’s breakout it became the norm for 192+ kids with the agility to play the majority of their junior footy as mids.

 

[Cyclonus]

Tennis rugby golf cricket and Soccer are all major sports which are largely dominated by normal sized men.

Rafa and Federer are 185cm, Djokovic is 188cm.

 

[Vintage]

Tennis rugby golf cricket and Soccer are all major sports which are largely dominated by normal sized men.

I think you’ll find the average height of the top players in all of those sports is above the average height of gen pop.

Eg top 10 tennis avg is over 190cm.
Brazil soccer team 180cm vs gen pop 173cm
even rugby wingers are at least an inch taller than average
top level soccer players about an inch taller on average
top 100 golf 183cm, western average approx 178cm

 

[My Tilly]

My father was about 5 cm taller than my grandfather, and I'm about 3 cm taller than my dad, so that's an anecdote on the human race getting taller overall.

We're getting taller and less intelligent.

 

[TheSunGod]

The great thing about our game is that it accommodates players of all shapes and sizes. If you’re good enough they’ll make it. IMO a mix of sizes through the midfield is a good option.

 

[Rooosterboy]

James Hird and a VFL midfield. Oh yeah, they'd dominate out at the Hangar.

Greatest premiership side to win what was it, One in a row, move on

 

[Lingsface]

The emphasis on the play on quick football with the man on the mark rule and leniency on the holding the ball allowing the ball to be disposed and play on has brought the ball to ground more and has become quicker so the smaller blokes with good engines are starting to get amazing numbers each week, if they have the footskills and football intelligence they are so damaging as well, butters Rozee Merrett etc.

 

[Milanista28]

Greatest premiership side to win what was it, One in a row, move on

The same side has never won a premiership twice

 

[peetoo]

This constant narrative of “ big bodied mid” or “ inside “Bull” crap is ridiculous.

Mids need super quick hands on both sides, genuine pace and endurance and have supreme kicking skills.

If you go back to our last heyday in 2000 with the greatest premiership side of all time we had a highly skilled small to medium size midfield with Mercuri, Misiti, Caracalla, Heffernan, Jason Johnson, Blumfield with Hird the tallest and biggest body.

Would they dominate nowadays against modern midfields today?

Most definitely they would.

Comes down to how well the mid group at any club works together and how hood their ruckman is.

Theyed be out suspended almost as often as the 1980s hawks and bombers would be

 

[Shane Heard]

Theyed be out suspended almost as often as the 1980s hawks and bombers would be

Yeah nah I don’t think so. Only Jason Johnson would have issues considering he pulverised every opponent he ever tackled.

The rest of them were pretty clean and didn’t play dirty.

Hardwick, Solomon and Mark Johnson on the other hand would probably miss half a season each these days.

 

[peetoo]

Yeah nah I don’t think so. Only Jason Johnson would have issues considering he pulverised every opponent he ever tackled.

The rest of them were pretty clean and didn’t play dirty.

Hardwick, Solomon and Mark Johnson on the other hand would probably miss half a season each these days.

All the hawks fans who went to a box hill game to sledge Mark Johnson personally when he was playing there once LOL

 

[Shane Heard]

All the hawks fans who went to a box hill game to sledge Mark Johnson personally when he was playing there once LOL

A genuine psychopath.

Bomber fans adored him.

 

[peetoo]

A genuine psychopath.

Bomber fans adored him.

Like Campbell brown ‘anger management’ is putting it mildly

 

[JasRulz63]

Darren Jarman wouldn't get drafted due to his attitude and work ethic. I spoke to Dipper about him and he said that he was Darren's training buddy when he first got to Hawthorn. Apparently Darren was so lazy, and his work ethic so poor that Dipper went to the coaching staff and said that he didn't think Darren would cut it, and even asked to not be his training buddy anymore because he was so bad.
He then said they brought the footies out and Darren did some ridiculous s**t kicking the ball and Dipper shook his head and said to the coaches, forget what I said, he is a freak.

Damien Cupido was similar in the sense he was lazy, had very poor work ethic and was selfish, but was supremely talented with the ball.

 

[melbun]

I glanced at the thread title and read mids as minds.

Might be another thread: Will we see a move back to smaller minds in the future?

 

[WillHayward]

Current top 6 in coach's votes

Butters
Daicos
Petracca
Merrett
Taranto
Sinclair

 

[PerthBoy86]

I do think there's definitely a place for smaller blokes. I think like Libba Snr before him, Caleb Daniel

35

Caleb Daniel

Age

27

Ht

171cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

M/F

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Last 5

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21.3

5star

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11.5

4star

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9.8

5star

M

3.5

4star

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2.9

4star

CL

1.4

4star

D

19.5

4star

K

11.1

4star

HB

8.4

4star

M

3.6

4star

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2.0

3star

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1.0

3star

D

16.4

4star

K

7.2

3star

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9.2

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3.4

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2.6

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0.2

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's height can be an advantage. Being about to duck out of tackles, more nimble etc (you've got to be nimble to start with, but the size helps) in close quarters. I mean even if you dont duck youre more likely to get tackled high anyway. Daniel is a great player regardless, intelligent, good decision maker and nimble.

 

[TheBigHorne]

Current top 6 in coach's votes

Butters
Daicos
Petracca
Merrett
Taranto
Sinclair

Heights in order:

181cm
184cm
187cm
179cm
188cm
181cm (could've sworn he's smaller than that).

Height can't change how easily you can pick the ball off the ground, how agile you are and how skillful you are. The 3 most important traits in AFL by far, if you have those 3 traits you've got a really good chance of making it, if not you're fighting a massive uphill battle. The average height for men aged between 18 - 24 in this country is apparently 177.8cm. You're more likely to find someone of those three qualities of a height closer to 175cm than 190cm.

If you were to look at the best non-KPP/ruck position players between the ages of 18 - 23 you'd find that most of them don't fit the bill of being 'tall'. Rowell is dominating contests at a height of 180cm. In fact, I've looked at the best inside midfield prospect from the 2018-22 drafts and all but one are shorter than 183cm tall.