Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[95bluemember]

Of course it's getting worse. We've traded out a lot of senior players over the past few years and brought in a lot of kids. It was always going to get worse.

Listen carefully. We ****** up the drafts from 2007-2014. Failed 1st round picks (no longer in the AFL) from that time include Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Menzel, Yarran, Boekhoest - plus we traded out two more out for Mclean and Jacksch (also no longer in the AFL). Second, third and higher picks (plus Rookie picks etc) fared no better.

This is the predicament we were facing in 2015. We had blown 8 years of recruiting, only nailing one pick (Cripps in 2013) in that time. Of the other half dozen players on the list from those 8 years of recruiting are players like Rowe, the perennially injured Irishman Byrne, and Graham. Hardly world beaters.

Nearly 50 players selected over 8 years for a net return of 1 x A grader and 4-5 x B graders.

Over those same 8 years we leaked players out the back door. Betts, Waite, Robinson and Garlett left, Judd and Walker retired to name a few.

As a consequence we had a playing list with 3-4 A grade players, and some good best 22 types in the upper age bracket, and no good players in the 18- 26 age bracket (barring Cripps).

We had monstered the list to the point that we were in the position that once Gibbs, Murphy, Simpson and Kruezer left (and they were all approaching or hitting 30 at this time), we were going to be left with nothing but Cripps as our only A grader, and the rest all B graders (or worse). And you could bet your bottom dollar Cripps wouldnt be sticking around to play in a VFL quality side.

Due to ******* up a decades worth of drafts we were in a huge hole, and there was an even bigger hole rapidly approaching.

Ergo, the decision was made for a 66 game (3 year) 'total list reset'. The old list was trashed and had a use by date attached. Senior players were to be traded out to enable us to hit the draft hard to get in talent, and would only to be retained to enable us to play the kids and provide some senior experience while we turned the place upside down.

The plan was to go the draft heavily. Tip as much talent in at the bottom bracket of youth (18-21) over the years 2015-2018 and assemble a list that would be ready to go early next decade, based around Cripps and Docherty. Once we had a good core of youth, we first needed to get 100 games into them to get them where we needed them, and over that time we would look to supplement that with Free Agents and Trades.

What you're seeing this year is a list forced to play a lot of kids before they're ready, with no senior experience around them (largely due to injury this year, but also due to the aforementioned poor drafting from 2007-2014, and having to trade out what good senior players we did have for more early draft picks in Henderson, Tuohy etc). A list that has had 43 changes in 3 years.

5 of our starting 8 midfielders last night were aged 18-21, and they were playing with no ruckman for most of the game. No side in the AFL can prop up a midfield of 5 first or second year kids with an average of 20 or so games between them. They're going to get smashed.

Dont expect much to change until those kids have gotten to the magic 50-100+ games mark, and have had around 5 preseasons in the legs.

This year we switch to a more balanced approach (more good kids + players in the 23-28 year old age bracket that we are light on in). Next year we hit trades and Free Agency hard (Kelly, Shiel, Neale being prime targets).

Sadly, you cant seem to see the forest for all the trees. You need to look at where we have come from, why we are doing what we are doing, and where we are going next.

The whole rebuild has been a bust no1 reason is our coaching staff/strategy is pathetic, we may have well asked Lord Farquaard to be the senior coach and lead an inexperienced group talk about the blind leading the blind!
We have set back the development of the young group a few years at least, explaining why alot of the so called young talent hasn't developed as expected.
It wouldn't really matter which draft picks we receive next, nothing will change while bolts is the coach unless they make a drastic change in game plan.
As Paul Roos said the Carlton youngsters are being taught the wrong way to defend, thus reflected in the players looking like they have no idea what they are doing.
Therefore you have the worst season in our clubs history, with no signs of improvement whilst Bolton is at the helm.

 

[Baird]

Are they drafting the wrong players or are they just not developing them correctly?

 

[Thrawn]

Of course health, safety and employee welfare is the most important thing in any organisation

Then we have nothing more to discuss.

<snip>

This thread is all about what needs to be done to arrest Carlton's long term run of mediocre performances, not about what we can be doing to improve the safety and welfare of players at Carlton (or any other club for that matter).

This thread was about channel 7 and Cripps being awarded BOG before it got merged.

I'm being called an idiot and a nitwit now instead of a troll for having a different opinion? That's a nice change I guess...

If you had bothered to read the post, the idiot mention came with an if qualifier.

 

[Foucault1989]

Are they drafting the wrong players or are they just not developing them correctly?

Or we haven't had a chance to see them develop yet? Far too early to make that call on our draftees from 2015 onwards. Give them an opportunity to finish the rebuild before we can ascertain whether it is a bust. I'm not saying it will be a success and will get us into the finals, but it's too early to tell yet.

 

[Baird]

Or we haven't had a chance to see them develop yet? Far too early to make that call on our draftees from 2015 onwards. Give them an opportunity to finish the rebuild before we can ascertain whether it is a bust. I'm not saying it will be a success and will get us into the finals, but it's too early to tell yet.

I meant the ones before 2014

 

[tigertigertiger]

Didn't bolton have a unique contract when he joined Carlton so he could do a runner on this situation?

 

[Foucault1989]

I meant the ones before 2014

Oh fair call then. I would say both. Shane Rogers was a shocking recruiter and I have strong doubts about the clubs culture to make new kids feel welcomed. For example, I recall Levi Casboult as an 18 year old was encouraged to get heavily intoxicated and tied to a boat by senior players. His dad had to come pick him up... Word is he was a drunken mess.

Also, leadership wise, we have had a list of nice, passive leaders rather than strong Hodge Voss and Selwood types who drive higher standards.

So both. Hopefully the club has turned these around. Docherty and Cripps seem like exceptional young leaders

 

[Foucault1989]

Didn't bolton have a unique contract when he joined Carlton so he could do a runner on this situation?

I believe he now has a contract until 2020. He won't run anyway. We have started this long list build through the draft. There is no other option but to stay course as awful as that is in the short term. I mean where do you find 6 22-28 year old AFL high quality footballers in a year or two when you win one game in a season?

 

[Fadge]

Are they drafting the wrong players or are they just not developing them correctly?

Very good point.

If you listen to any Carlton poster they will tell you that of the 50 players drafted between 2007 and 2014, only six of them were any good.

You couldn't do that if you tried...

 

[ChrisHunt313131]

I hope Carlton sticks with Bolton - but think they need new assistant coaches and development coaches plus obviously draft well and even try pick up a veteran leader like McVeigh from Sydney if possible.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Who did Jack Steven play on, out of interest?

Not sure, haven't heard and didn't notice anyone in particular on him at the game and heard someone say Ed Curnow wasn't on him, so if that was true they might not have gone with a tag on him like most teams do.

 

[Malifice]

The whole rebuild has been a bust no1 reason is our coaching staff/strategy is pathetic, we may have well asked Lord Farquaard to be the senior coach and lead an inexperienced group talk about the blind leading the blind!
We have set back the development of the young group a few years at least, explaining why alot of the so called young talent hasn't developed as expected.
It wouldn't really matter which draft picks we receive next, nothing will change while bolts is the coach unless they make a drastic change in game plan.
As Paul Roos said the Carlton youngsters are being taught the wrong way to defend, thus reflected in the players looking like they have no idea what they are doing.
Therefore you have the worst season in our clubs history, with no signs of improvement whilst Bolton is at the helm.

Like I said; we have reactionary supporters. Exhibit A above.

You're honestly laying the blame at Boltons feet? We have a starting midfield of 5 x 1st and 2nd year kids plus Cripps, E Curnow and a fading Murphy getting rucked to by Jones and Rowe, are forced to play B graders lie Shaw/ Thomas/ Mullett/ Oshea thanks to Dochertys injury... and you blame the Coach?

The blame for what you're seeing is due to 8 years of poor drafting from 2007-2014. In that entire period of 8 years we drafted one A grader in Cripps, and arguably a second in Kruezer. Those are the gun players that should be 23-29 year old age bracket at the moment, who form the bulk of the gruntwork any AFL list.

Look at our recruiting over that period (first round draft picks bolded, players in green still on our list):

2007: Kruezer, Browne, Armfield, Pfieffer, Joseph, Hill, Ellard, Shields
2008: Yarran, Robinson, OKeefe, Tiller, Johnson, Garlett, Stanton, Bentley, Jacobs
2009: Lucas, Davies, Kerr, Cachia, Dare, Casboult, White, Donaldson, Tuohy
2010: Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, McInnes, Duigan, E Curnow, OKeefe, Twomey, Carter, Bray
2011: Bootsma, Bell, Rowe, Buckley, Hayne, Dale, Lodge
2012: Menzel, Temay, Graham, Cachia, Collins
2013: Cripps, Giles, Holman, Reynolds, Wood, Johnson, Sheehan, Byrne
2014: Boekhoest, Vojo Rainbow, Smith, Foster, Tutt, Gowers, Walsh, Fields, Russell

Then in 2015 Bolton takes over.

That makes for some grim reading. Out of 65 players selected over those drafts, we have 7 on our list (and that's including names like Graham, Casboult, Byrne and Rowe). The only A graders we landed in nearly a decade were Cripps and Kruezer and arguably E Curnow. No fewer than 6 wasted first round picks (8 if you include trades for McLean and Jacksch).

How in the name of all that is Holy, do you expect us to be competitive at present bearing the above in mind? Players selected in those drafts should be forming the bulk of our senior players that run out each week. Your playing core is usually blokes aged 23-29. That's the age group that makes up 2/3 of your best 22, and all your most important players.

How the heck can you blame Bolton for where we find ourselves?

The only option we had when he came in was to start from scratch. If we did anything else, we would have fallen off a cliff when Simpson, Murphy and Kruezer retire in a year or two. We would have been left with Cripps playing alongside 21 potatoes.

You're being shortsighted, reactionary and ignorant of history and what got us into this mess. You're pointing the finger a the the Coach because it's easy to do. How many coaches do we have to sack, before you realize that maybe (just maybe) there is a bit more to it than the Coach?

 

[SickQwon]

Actually I never suggested finals after 3 years but don't pretend either that the club or supporters believed it would mark true ground zero. Yeah there are some other factors at play such as injuries but that doesn't mean three years in there appears little progress in areas such as game style/strategy, player development, football admin, sports science etc nor if the rebuild strategy conceived back then was the right one. The standard line that "we're young & had injuries" doesn't really apply on those fronts.

With the way our first year under Bolts went, can you blame us? Obviously got ahead of ourselves, thinking improvement would happen gradually after that. The reality is we came last in 2015 and that was us pushing for finals, we hadn't even bottomed out yet...

That's the list Bolton and SOS inherited.

 

[Doro]

Very good point.

If you listen to any Carlton poster they will tell you that of the 50 players drafted between 2007 and 2014, only six of them were any good.

You couldn't do that if you tried...

You would think a number would work their way back into the system if it was all development. I can think of Holman and Gowers (hardly world beaters) and not many others.

 

[SickQwon]

Some supporters certainly thought it was 3 years then back to finals.

Those supporters simply were not listening to the club (the club was very clear that this was a ground zero total list reset, and the reasons why it had to happen) and were ignorant of the hole we found ourselves in, and the reason why we had to do what we did.

Like any other club we have feral supporters, who (basically) arent very bright. They want instant gratification and cant see the bigger picture. When it comes to instant gratification and messiah complexes, Carlton are renowned for it.

That said, the club is pretty unified with the direction we are headed (players, admin, supporters etc). Most of us are savvy enough to know why we had to do what we did, and are in this for the long haul.

Not much will change next year. We'll be bottom 4 again. But I do expect us to start to rise rather quickly after that in 2020/21 once those kids we've picked up over the past four or so years start to reach that magical 100 game mark, and we get in some Free agents or trades.

You forgot to mention that we are trying to achieve sustained success once the rebuilding process is finished. I can't imagine this being achievable after 3 years of drafting. But i'm happy the club has mapped it out for supporters and that they want the club at the top for a long time and avoiding being one-hit wonders who sit in ladder purgatory like Freo, Doggies, Saints and Port ect.

 

[Foucault1989]

Like I said; we have reactionary supporters. Exhibit A above.

You're honestly laying the blame at Boltons feet? We have a starting midfield of 5 x 1st and 2nd year kids plus Cripps, E Curnow and a fading Murphy getting rucked to by Jones and Rowe, are forced to play B graders lie Shaw/ Thomas/ Mullett/ Oshea thanks to Dochertys injury... and you blame the Coach?

The blame for what you're seeing is due to 8 years of poor drafting from 2007-2014. In that entire period of 8 years we drafted one A grader in Cripps, and arguably a second in Kruezer. Those are the gun players that should be 23-29 year old age bracket at the moment, who form the bulk of the gruntwork any AFL list.

Look at our recruiting over that period (first round draft picks bolded, players in green still on our list):

2007: Kruezer, Browne, Armfield, Pfieffer, Joseph, Hill, Ellard, Shields
2008: Yarran, Robinson, OKeefe, Tiller, Johnson, Garlett, Stanton, Bentley, Jacobs
2009: Lucas, Davies, Kerr, Cachia, Dare, Casboult, White, Donaldson, Tuohy
2010: Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, McInnes, Duigan, E Curnow, OKeefe, Twomey, Carter, Bray
2011: Bootsma, Bell, Rowe, Buckley, Hayne, Dale, Lodge
2012: Menzel, Temay, Graham, Cachia, Collins
2013: Cripps, Giles, Holman, Reynolds, Wood, Johnson, Sheehan, Byrne
2014: Boekhoest, Vojo Rainbow, Smith, Foster, Tutt, Gowers, Walsh, Fields, Russell

Then in 2015 Bolton takes over.

That makes for some grim reading. Out of 65 players selected over those drafts, we have 7 on our list (and that's including names like Graham, Casboult, Byrne and Rowe). The only A graders we landed in nearly a decade were Cripps and Kruezer and arguably E Curnow. No fewer than 6 wasted first round picks (8 if you include trades for McLean and Jacksch).

How in the name of all that is Holy, do you expect us to be competitive at present bearing the above in mind? Players selected in those drafts should be forming the bulk of our senior players that run out each week. Your playing core is usually blokes aged 23-29. That's the age group that makes up 2/3 of your best 22, and all your most important players.

How the **** can you blame Bolton for where we find ourselves?

The only option we had when he came in was to start from scratch. If we did anything else, we would have fallen off a cliff when Simpson, Murphy and Kruezer retire in a year or two. We would have been left with Cripps playing alongside 21 potatoes.

You're being shortsighted, reactionary and ignorant of history and what got us into this mess. You're pointing the finger a the the Coach because it's easy to do. How many coaches do we have to sack, before you realize that maybe (just maybe) there is a bit more to it than the Coach?

Gosh stop including analysis which shows how ignorant and short sited opposition fans are!

No matter how clearly you map it out for them - and you've done an excellent job - these people hate Carlton and enjoy the thrill of the troll!

 

[SickQwon]

Gosh stop including analysis which shows how ignorant and short sited opposition fans are!

No matter how clearly you map it out for them - and you've done an excellent job - these people hate Carlton and enjoy the thrill of the troll!

No doubt Bolton and SOS could still bomb the team and the reset could end up as a failure. But two years in, to say that they've failed is just an opportunity to have a dig at Carlton.

You can pick the trolls because they never offer any alternative method to how the team should be rebuilt. Just shitpostin'.

 

[Captivating]

I'm just not convinced Bolton is the right coach for the list in this state, If it was more advanced, I would be enjoying his tactical nous. But I am not convinced that he is the right person to develop / completely overhaul a list.

 

[Doro]

I'm just not convinced Bolton is the right coach for the list in this state, If it was more advanced, I would be enjoying his tactical nous. But I am not convinced that he is the right person to develop / completely overhaul a list.

Bucks has spent a bit of time with the football world doubting his suitability as well. It's the internal thoughts that matter.

 

[SickQwon]

I'm just not convinced Bolton is the right coach for the list in this state, If it was more advanced, I would be enjoying his tactical nous. But I am not convinced that he is the right person to develop / completely overhaul a list.

Fair post, Bolts would be a great addition to have around a good club like sayyy... Hawthorn?

 

[95bluemember]

Like I said; we have reactionary supporters. Exhibit A above.

You're honestly laying the blame at Boltons feet? We have a starting midfield of 5 x 1st and 2nd year kids plus Cripps, E Curnow and a fading Murphy getting rucked to by Jones and Rowe, are forced to play B graders lie Shaw/ Thomas/ Mullett/ Oshea thanks to Dochertys injury... and you blame the Coach?

The blame for what you're seeing is due to 8 years of poor drafting from 2007-2014. In that entire period of 8 years we drafted one A grader in Cripps, and arguably a second in Kruezer. Those are the gun players that should be 23-29 year old age bracket at the moment, who form the bulk of the gruntwork any AFL list.

Look at our recruiting over that period (first round draft picks bolded, players in green still on our list):

2007: Kruezer, Browne, Armfield, Pfieffer, Joseph, Hill, Ellard, Shields
2008: Yarran, Robinson, OKeefe, Tiller, Johnson, Garlett, Stanton, Bentley, Jacobs
2009: Lucas, Davies, Kerr, Cachia, Dare, Casboult, White, Donaldson, Tuohy
2010: Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, McInnes, Duigan, E Curnow, OKeefe, Twomey, Carter, Bray
2011: Bootsma, Bell, Rowe, Buckley, Hayne, Dale, Lodge
2012: Menzel, Temay, Graham, Cachia, Collins
2013: Cripps, Giles, Holman, Reynolds, Wood, Johnson, Sheehan, Byrne
2014: Boekhoest, Vojo Rainbow, Smith, Foster, Tutt, Gowers, Walsh, Fields, Russell

Then in 2015 Bolton takes over.

That makes for some grim reading. Out of 65 players selected over those drafts, we have 7 on our list (and that's including names like Graham, Casboult, Byrne and Rowe). The only A graders we landed in nearly a decade were Cripps and Kruezer and arguably E Curnow. No fewer than 6 wasted first round picks (8 if you include trades for McLean and Jacksch).

How in the name of all that is Holy, do you expect us to be competitive at present bearing the above in mind? Players selected in those drafts should be forming the bulk of our senior players that run out each week. Your playing core is usually blokes aged 23-29. That's the age group that makes up 2/3 of your best 22, and all your most important players.

How the **** can you blame Bolton for where we find ourselves?

The only option we had when he came in was to start from scratch. If we did anything else, we would have fallen off a cliff when Simpson, Murphy and Kruezer retire in a year or two. We would have been left with Cripps playing alongside 21 potatoes.

You're being shortsighted, reactionary and ignorant of history and what got us into this mess. You're pointing the finger a the the Coach because it's easy to do. How many coaches do we have to sack, before you realize that maybe (just maybe) there is a bit more to it than the Coach?

So you have illustrated 8 years of draft lotto and now we are going back to draft lotto again to secure our future rebuild, doesn't seem like we have learnt a lesson from history then.
I heard a guy ring into SEN a few weeks ago and he said 'all the kids SOS has picked are duds apart from Curnow' I don't believe he was totally right but it is hard to form a counter argument at the moment.
I also hold SOS accountable.

 

[Chief]

The main board: Wall to wall negativity about Richmond. It has to stop!

 

[95bluemember]

Gosh stop including analysis which shows how ignorant and short sited opposition fans are!

No matter how clearly you map it out for them - and you've done an excellent job - these people hate Carlton and enjoy the thrill of the troll!

I know a few die hard Carlton fans who don't even bother to turn on the TV to watch our games anymore, unfortunately that's the reality of our situation.

 

[Foucault1989]

I know a few die hard Carlton fans who don't even bother to turn on the TV to watch our games anymore, unfortunately that's the reality of our situation.

Die hard hey...

 

[Doro]

Die hard hey...

They got stuck in an airport at xmas and terrorists attacked. Misunderstanding.