News Suns to ask for Pick 1 as a priority pick

[Crow till I die]

Rankine by himself means little in long term trends. David Swallow and Jack Martin have also stuck around until now, it doesn't mean Gold Coast had no retention problems in the time since those two were drafted. If Martin leaves at the end of the year, the same tired narrative will be brought out that the Suns can't keep anyone. If they have every talented youngster from the past three drafts re-signing then you could fairly say it's turning around. Right now they still need help.

Haven't a few of their younger players already signed on this year with rankine being the latest?

Edit. The full list of GC player contract end dates. A number of their players are signed on beyond this year and further out

Gold Coast Suns AFL Player Contracts

Details of AFL player contracts for the Gold Coast Suns.

www.footywire.com

 

[La Dispute]

They will get one of anderson or rowell anyway and as for retention rankine has signed with some others on so it seems the club may have started to turn the corner. So again..no need to compromise the draft..plenty of other ways to help them

Depends if they get a priority pick, which I think they should.

I think it’s too early to suggest they’ve turned the corner until their form indicates this is the case, and they stop leaking star players.

As we have seen multiple times already with contracted Gold Coast players the contracts aren’t worth the paper they’re written on, hence players like Scrimshaw leaving for a pittance. It’s nice they have some security with Rankine, but he’s only been at the club a year, and may not be wedded to Gold Coast long term.

If they got that extra pick, that couldn’t take Rowell and Anderson quick enough.

 

[Crow till I die]

Depends if they get a priority pick, which I think they should.

I think it’s too early to suggest they’ve turned the corner until their form indicates this is the case, and they stop leaking star players.

As we have seen multiple times already with contracted Gold Coast players the contracts aren’t worth the paper they’re written on, hence players like Scrimshaw leaving for a pittance. It’s nice they have some security with Rankine, but he’s only been at the club a year, and may not be wedded to Gold Coast long term.

If they got that extra pick, that couldn’t take Rowell and Anderson quick enough.

I and plenty others think GC don't need a PP to help them along and the AFL should not buckle in denying it. As I have noted multiple times, there are plenty of other better longer term that will help GC from next year onwards. There is no actual evidence just because Rowell and Anderson are mates to say that it has any bearing on them staying long term or not - people can speculate but there is not proof at all to that. If that sort of thing was a proven then GC should have taken both the King twins last year to help with retention and chose not to - so it must obviously be a non factor

 

[Peel67skin]

I and plenty others think GC don't need a PP to help them along and the AFL should not buckle in denying it. As I have noted multiple times, there are plenty of other better longer term that will help GC from next year onwards. There is no actual evidence just because Rowell and Anderson are mates to say that it has any bearing on them staying long term or not - people can speculate but there is not proof at all to that. If that sort of thing was a proven then GC should have taken both the King twins last year to help with retention and chose not to - so it must obviously be a non factor

That's my problem with you, Ben King already played few AFL games but his brother got injured in VFL. You just can't change tune because Rankine signed extension, BEFORE he signed extension you keep suggested some silly trade that get Anderson and Rowell together.
Eg pick 2 for Lukosius and Rankine.

 

[Crow till I die]

That's my problem with you, Ben King already played few AFL games but his brother got injured in VFL. You just can't change tune because Rankine signed extension, BEFORE he signed extension you keep suggested some silly trade that get Anderson and Rowell together.

And you kept saying that it would make no difference as both could leave..finish the story. But hey, you are right to a degree. If GC want picks 1 & 2 (assuming Carlton finish bottom 2), then a trade with the crows to get that pick for lukosius might work - then grab Rowell and Anderson

 

[La Dispute]

I and plenty others think GC don't need a PP to help them along and the AFL should not buckle in denying it. As I have noted multiple times, there are plenty of other better longer term that will help GC from next year onwards. There is no actual evidence just because Rowell and Anderson are mates to say that it has any bearing on them staying long term or not - people can speculate but there is not proof at all to that. If that sort of thing was a proven then GC should have taken both the King twins last year to help with retention and chose not to - so it must obviously be a non factor

They took Luko at 2, who was the most talented key position forward in the draft. They may have had reservations about taking Max given his ACL, and in any case Ben was taken as a key defender.

They did factor in the SA connection when they drafted Luko and Rankine, and I think they would have taken Rozee if he slipped through. They couldn’t take all of Max King, Ben King, Luko and Rankine however.

Sure there’s no evidence both Rowell and Anderson will stay (or neither), but that’s one proactive measure that gives them immediate production. Giving them cap space is also no guarantee of signing a player worth the money - it may actually hamstring them if they have to meet the minimum TPP. There is also the possibility that to meet the minimum payments they sign a plethora of mediocre footballers, which they have enough of.

 

[Crow till I die]

They took Luko at 2, who was the most talented key position forward in the draft. They may have had reservations about taking Max given his ACL, and in any case Ben was taken as a key defender.

They did factor in the SA connection when they drafted Luko and Rankine, and I think they would have taken Rozee if he slipped through. They couldn’t take all of Max King, Ben King, Luko and Rankine however.

Sure there’s no evidence both Rowell and Anderson will stay (or neither), but that’s one proactive measure that gives them immediate production. Giving them cap space is also no guarantee of signing a player worth the money - it may actually hamstring them if they have to meet the minimum TPP. There is also the possibility that to meet the minimum payments they sign a plethora of mediocre footballers, which they have enough of.

What you are leaving out though is that they had a competitive list at the start of the year when most thought they were way off. They won 3 games and came very close in some others before injury hit. They have talent there and if they can get the right support staff there to help reduce non-contact injury then they are maybe a better team than a 3 win team with plenty of youth already on their list. There are plenty of guys coming out of contract each year and RFA's and FA's they can target and if the AFL are fair dinkum they can allow them to keep a larger salary cap for some time to come until they become very competitve

You do also realise Max King was touted as a possible pick 1 by some scribes last year - it would have been no stretch for them to have taken Rankine, M King and B King to keep the twins together if retention was the concern.. So if they want picks 1 & 2, they get pick 1 due to ladder position - they can trade for pick 2 and then get what they want...or put pick 1 up for grabs to see what sort of player they can attract - you never know they might get a real gem and then go to the draft with the brisbane pick

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If that sort of thing was a proven then GC should have taken both the King twins last year to help with retention and chose not to - so it must obviously be a non factor

Or, they simply thought Rankine and Lukosius were both better prospects than Max, particularly with his injury, and then at pick 6 they thought Ben was far ahead of everyone else available in talent that had a chance of staying (since Smith made it clear he wasn't leaving Victoria and Blakey would have probably left to join his dad at the first opportunity if by some miracle they didn't match).

 

[Crow till I die]

Or, they simply thought Rankine and Lukosius were both better prospects than Max, particularly with his injury, and then at pick 6 they thought Ben was far ahead of everyone else available in talent that had a chance of staying (since Smith made it clear he wasn't leaving Victoria and Blakey would have probably left to join his dad at the first opportunity if by some miracle they didn't match).

maybe..but that blows the need to take Rowell and Anderson out of the water from a keep em together retention point of view..So they get pick 1 this year due to ladder position, they get their pick of Rowell or Anderson or maybe someone else?..great for them..pair him with the guy they pick with he Brisbane 1st round pick they also have (maybe another SA kid?)

 

[Johnny Bananas]

You do also realise Max King was touted as a possible pick 1 by some scribes last year - it would have been no stretch for them to have taken Rankine, M King and B King to keep the twins together if retention was the concern..

Many people also rated Lukosius above Max , including most draft watchers. Particularly with Max doing his ACL. Besides, if they'd taken Rankine and Max with 2 and 3, how do you know St Kilda wouldn't have taken Ben?

maybe..but that blows the need to take Rowell and Anderson out of the water from a keep em together retention point of view.

No it doesn't. Their retention issues aren't dead, and Scrimshaw proves that. So will Martin if he leaves this year, which looks likely. Not all players have the same desire to stay or leave, perhaps they were convinced by Ben in interviews that he'd stay, more so than Max. Maybe Ben wanted to try something different and get out of Max's shadow.

It's entirely possible that Rowell or Anderson will want to return to Victoria, and it's entirely possible they won't also. But logically it'll be easier to keep them if they get both, since they're well known to be best mates.

 

[Crow till I die]

Many people also rated Lukosius above Max , including most draft watchers. Particularly with Max doing his ACL. Besides, if they'd taken Rankine and Max with 2 and 3, how do you know St Kilda wouldn't have taken Ben?


No it doesn't. Their retention issues aren't dead, and Scrimshaw proves that. So will Martin if he leaves this year, which looks likely. Not all players have the same desire to stay or leave, perhaps they were convinced by Ben in interviews that he'd stay, more so than Max. Maybe Ben wanted to try something different and get out of Max's shadow.

It's entirely possible that Rowell or Anderson will want to return to Victoria, and it's entirely possible they won't also. But logically it'll be easier to keep them if they get both, since they're well known to be best mates.

but that is pure speculation that it will work to retain them..it might and it might not. And sure Lukosius was very highly rated - my point was that if GC were more concerned about retention in drafting, then better to take twin brothers that just about anyone else. But we are going around in circles here - I am not for budging on my views that there are better and fairer ways t help GC short AND long term than compromising the draft and live pick trading by flipping PP's to teams

 

[La Dispute]

Fairer for who? If the Gold Coast get an extra pick that impacts all 17 other clubs, and if they get extra cap space that affects all 17 other clubs. The reality is there is no fair way when there are extra concessions in place.

Look at the current situation though - no genuine guns have signed with Gold Coast since Gary Ablett, and he did so without any history attached to the club. Since then the club has been renowned for mediocrity, a place where careers go to die, and obviously no chance of finals. So why would any gun player sign with them?

Their best shot is by putting together a lethal squad, with bucketloads of talented young players who see the long term vision and are excited by the squad before the rest of the AFL sees how good they’ll become. It worked for GWS, and if they can make a consistent push up the ladder they’ll start to attract good players to the club.

Expecting any player with a reasonable amount of talent to sign with them in their current state is optimistic.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

but that is pure speculation that it will work to retain them..it might and it might not. And sure Lukosius was very highly rated - my point was that if GC were more concerned about retention in drafting, then better to take twin brothers that just about anyone else.

Of course it's pure speculation. I haven't interviewed them. Logically you'd think it'd help them to have their best mate though, if you put yourself in their shoes. As far as the Kings go, I look at what Gold Coast did and I ask myself why they made the decisions they made. They had access to much more information than any of us, and they acted upon that information as they saw fit. I don't presume I know better than them from a culture and fit point of view.

But we are going around in circles here - I am not for budging on my views that there are better and fairer ways t help GC short AND long term than compromising the draft and live pick trading by flipping PP's to teams

You're entitled to your view, I just don't agree with it. Every draft is compromised. The last draft had a compensation pick in the top 3. 2016 had a priority pick in the top 20 (moved out by bid matching). I don't consider "compromising the draft" as an issue when it comes to helping Gold Coast.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

Fairer for who? If the Gold Coast get an extra pick that impacts all 17 other clubs, and if they get extra cap space that affects all 17 other clubs. The reality is there is no fair way when there are extra concessions in place.

Priority (and compensation) picks disproportionately impact the teams with picks immediately following where the PP is inserted, as the marginal loss in moving from pick 2 to 3 is greater than from 18 to 19. The fundamental problem with priority picks (along with the moral hazard it guarantees) is that this tends to hit other poor teams hardest, though Crow is obviously more concerned in this case because Adelaide are at that end of the draft. The irony of that situation is a PP is less harmful this year than it would have been otherwise.

Additional salary cap theoretically impacts all teams equally by simply inflating demand, though in practice the specific clubs who lose free agents suffer unless compensated, which returns us to the flaws of PPs. If that additional cap is instead used to lure trade targets, the impact on the source club is less, but so is the gain for Gold Coast. If it's used to aid retention, the impact is even, but as Sydney's COLA-assisted player attraction demonstrated that's very hard to guarantee in practice.

If we're serious about equalising impact on the rest of the league, then non-list assistance (namely football department expertise and resourcing) is most "fair" in that it improves Gold Coast's capacity to retain players and compete against all opponents at the expense of none in particular.

More importantly, it also addresses the issues that have already led to 10 years worth of elite talent failing to produce a competitive team. This is the route the AFL have already taken with Evans, Dew and other key appointments, the new facilities, and so on. My view is Gold Coast are already on the right track to becoming a functional club, so continuing this, and ensuring the mature bodies are in place to protect the existing talent as it develops, should be the focus over adding more kids.

 

[Crow till I die]

Of course it's pure speculation. I haven't interviewed them. Logically you'd think it'd help them to have their best mate though, if you put yourself in their shoes. As far as the Kings go, I look at what Gold Coast did and I ask myself why they made the decisions they made. They had access to much more information than any of us, and they acted upon that information as they saw fit. I don't presume I know better than them from a culture and fit point of view.

Yes...but by that same logic you would think drafting twins would be the most foolproof way to keep them together.

You're entitled to your view, I just don't agree with it. Every draft is compromised. The last draft had a compensation pick in the top 3. 2016 had a priority pick in the top 20 (moved out by bid matching). I don't consider "compromising the draft" as an issue when it comes to helping Gold Coast.

well we agree to disagree..but I hope I am correct and no PP is given because it will majorly disadvantage our club if that pick we were going to get is a top 2 pick

 

[La Dispute]

Priority (and compensation) picks disproportionately impact the teams with picks immediately following where the PP is inserted, as the marginal loss in moving from pick 2 to 3 is greater than from 18 to 19. The fundamental problem with priority picks (along with the moral hazard it guarantees) is that this tends to hit other poor teams hardest, though Crow is obviously more concerned in this case because Adelaide are at that end of the draft. The irony of that situation is a PP is less harmful this year than it would have been otherwise.

Additional salary cap theoretically impacts all teams equally by simply inflating demand, though in practice the specific clubs who lose free agents suffer unless compensated, which returns us to the flaws of PPs. If that additional cap is instead used to lure trade targets, the impact on the source club is less, but so is the gain for Gold Coast. If it's used to aid retention, the impact is even, but as Sydney's COLA-assisted player attraction demonstrated that's very hard to guarantee in practice.

If we're serious about equalising impact on the rest of the league, then non-list assistance (namely football department expertise and resourcing) is most "fair" in that it improves Gold Coast's capacity to retain players and compete against all opponents at the expense of none in particular.

Agree with all of this, although GC themselves were impacted by GWS picks in their first draft, and despite being clearly the worst team ended up bumped down the draft order.

It’s swings and roundabouts. Other teams are currently benefiting by pillaging Gold Coast on a yearly basis, and picking up their players (generally speaking) on the cheap. Gold Coast won’t improve until they’re propped up properly, as GWS were.

Other teams aren’t even in the same ballpark when it comes to retaining players.

It seems like putting Gold Coast on a pedestal, but it’s more like evening the playing field in advance, and giving Gold Coast a safety net by inflating the number of talented players populating their list.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I can see why the Gold Coast wouldn't be given picks 1 and 2, not from a fairness perspective (which I don't really care about) but from it not being the best way to improve them in the short to medium term. Salary cap benefits would help more in theory, but good luck getting anyone to go to the Gold Coast voluntarily right now unless they grew up there. Off-field assistance is probably more sustainable, so I'd consider just removing the soft cap on off-field spending for them for 4-5 years so they can build a proper culture. Being based in actual buildings now instead of demountables will help.

 

[Crow till I die]

I can see why the Gold Coast wouldn't be given picks 1 and 2, not from a fairness perspective (which I don't really care about) but from it not being the best way to improve them in the short to medium term. Salary cap benefits would help more in theory, but good luck getting anyone to go to the Gold Coast voluntarily right now unless they grew up there. Off-field assistance is probably more sustainable, so I'd consider just removing the soft cap on off-field spending for them for 4-5 years so they can build a proper culture. Being based in actual buildings now instead of demountables will help.

on that - apparently there is a reasonable chance that Hugh Greenwood may be on his way to GC. I have said this on the GC board that I would be happy for him to go there and the crows obtain nominal compensation to help (ie equivalent to a free agency compo scenario so it costs GC nothing to get him there other than salary)- just no AFL issued front end PP's. And Guys like Greenwood would be a step up from Horlin smith and a few others

 

[Elmer_Judd]

on that - apparently there is a reasonable chance that Hugh Greenwood may be on his way to GC. I have said this on the GC board that I would be happy for him to go there and the crows obtain nominal compensation to help (ie equivalent to a free agency compo scenario so it costs GC nothing to get him there other than salary)- just no AFL issued front end PP's. And Guys like Greenwood would be a step up from Horlin smith and a few others

If by normal compensation you mean a late second round/early third round pick, because that is all Greenwood is worth on an open market.

You are not implying a James Frawley Melbourne type of compensation scenario surely ?

Anyhow if the Suns don't win another game this year, I would say they are a 95 % chance to get a pre First Round PP (IE pick 1 and 2)

We may not like it, but the AFL has spent too much money and resources to let the Suns continue in this manner, so they will get draft and probably salary cap assistance but i also think they need a new Chairman (Tone Cochrane hardly inspires any consumer confidence) and possibly a new coach.

I think the Brisbane Lions have proven if you get the right off field people to your footy club, things can turn aroind within 4-5 years or so.

 

[Crow till I die]

If by normal compensation you mean a late second round/early third round pick, because that is all Greenwood is worth on an open market.

You are not implying a James Frawley Melbourne type of compensation scenario surely ?

Anyhow if the Suns don't win another game this year, I would say they are a 95 % chance to get a pre First Round PP (IE pick 1 and 2)

We may not like it, but the AFL has spent too much money and resources to let the Suns continue in this manner, so they will get draft and probably salary cap assistance but i also think they need a new Chairman (Tone Cochrane hardly inspires any consumer confidence) and possibly a new coach.

I think the Brisbane Lions have proven if you get the right off field people to your footy club, things can turn aroind within 4-5 years or so.

No not at all..maybe start of 3rd round or thereabouts

edit: such a trade is predicated on GC not getting a PP

 

[Stroppy]

PPs are in the rules.
They have been given out by the Commission in recent years.
They are rightly reluctant to give them out, but the option exists.
In fact, the option existed at the time all live trades took place last year.

The Suns should ask for pick #1.
I doubt we will get it but we should ask.

Tbh, nothing in the AFL is fair and there is no such thing as a level playing field. Every club should get what they can when they can b/c if you don't push for it everything will go the biggest clubs.

Richmond play 5 games this year away from the MCG (13 games) and Marvel (4 games).

Some teams get to play the Suns twice.

Some teams live in cities where the 12th best player on the list can get free stuff and plenty of cashies on the side. Good luck with that on the Gold Coast.

Some teams have a great history and legacy that has nothing to do with decisions being made by the current administration or actions by the current players that gives those teams an inbuilt advantage in attracting ooc and free agent players in the modern AFL. In fact, some of those teams have tried their hardest to stuff up that great legacy but as soon as that team shows a breath of life the legacy is revived.

No, its not a fair competition. Which is why we (the Suns) should go as hard as possible to get as many concessions as we can get.

 

[kreglze]

PPs are in the rules.
They have been given out by the Commission in recent years.
They are rightly reluctant to give them out, but the option exists.
In fact, the option existed at the time all live trades took place last year.

The Suns should ask for pick #1.
I doubt we will get it but we should ask.

Tbh, nothing in the AFL is fair and there is no such thing as a level playing field. Every club should get what they can when they can b/c if you don't push for it everything will go the biggest clubs.

Richmond play 5 games this year away from the MCG (13 games) and Marvel (4 games).

Some teams get to play the Suns twice.

Some teams live in cities where the 12th best player on the list can get free stuff and plenty of cashies on the side. Good luck with that on the Gold Coast.

Some teams have a great history and legacy that has nothing to do with decisions being made by the current administration or actions by the current players that gives those teams an inbuilt advantage in attracting ooc and free agent players in the modern AFL. In fact, some of those teams have tried their hardest to stuff up that great legacy but as soon as that team shows a breath of life the legacy is revived.

No, its not a fair competition. Which is why we (the Suns) should go as hard as possible to get as many concessions as we can get.

Agreed with the fair/unfair aspect, you need to take what advantages you can to get ahead, whether that is asking for the best concession you can get, or getting a partner a job in a new city, or having access to a bunch of media contracts in the city you are in, or getting extra sponsorship... or be lucky enough to play us twice this season when other teams don't get to.

The AFL is set up as an unfair league, and I think people just need to accept it.

 

[Blackas87]

They could have 9 of the first 15 picks and it still won’t be enough. One priority pick will do stuff all to turn the Suns around.

This team needs leadership and Mentors way more than another young kid that’ll be looking to get out there at the first opportunity.

 

[Peel67skin]

They could have 9 of the first 15 picks and it still won’t be enough. One priority pick will do stuff all to turn the Suns around.

This team needs leadership and Mentors way more than another young kid that’ll be looking to get out there at the first opportunity.

1 is still better than nothing. Ask is better than assume.

 

[lionshine]

I say give them PP 1 giving them picks 1 and 2. I think they've sorted out their off field stuff. They have a decent, experienced coaching group, the AFL have planted Mark Evans up there, they have elite facilities now and Dew and Co. appear to be developing a strong culture off field. I think they should get a PP on the basis that over the years they've lost a lot of talent to the go home factor including getting little return on investment on some high draft picks e.g. Scrimshaw. If there was any year to give the Suns a PP it is this year as it will give them the two best prospects in Rowell and Anderson who are best mates which should reduce the go home factor like McCluggage/Berry with us and they are also elite midfield prospects which the Suns are crying out for.

With the operations off field stabilising and a solid culture building, Dew will have plenty to work with with a young core of Lukosius, Rankine, Ainsworth, Bowes, King, Rowell, and Anderson supported by experienced leaders such as Swallow, Witts, Harbrow, Thompson and some super handy role players like Sexton, Weller and Collins. That's the nucleus of a decent young team with all the right pieces in place starting to build. They could expect another couple of bottom 4 finishes in 2020/2021 but after that if they can keep their young core together they should be able to start to move up the ladder and attract some decent recruits from opposition clubs.