Autopsy Round 5, 2020: Hawthorn falls in a heap against the Giants

[Brant]

Ceglar knows a secret about Clarko and forces Clarko to play him in the ruck no matter what. Only explanation I think

There's that; then there's the fact that he re-signed a (2-3 yr) contract & committed to this stupidity so we kinda have to let it play out.

 

[hk89]

- If KPD struggle with the high ball kicked to the benefit of forwards - but those same KPD provide more rebound than BigBoy or simply means we can play 2x KPD instead of 3x KPD, then WTF does BigBoy offer, other than to preserve his body? If he can quell these KPF then sure - keep him there; but, if he's just another that can't quell the KPF, but then also can't defend the ground ball or contribute to our rebound, then he's essentially a liability as a KPD -

- He definitely has done well against some forwards. Add Brown to your post that he's done well against WCE + Bris. But then it isn't debated that he does well defensively against an individual, so long as our midfield is dominant. Still sh*t offensively & tonight shows that he's garbage in defence if the opposition is on top - but he certainly was effective against WCE + Brissie - ish.

I think those he can quell some KPF's, as you allude to in your second point. I think we need to be more realistic on which these are. It is not all about delivery, there are some guys that will obviously be hard for him to match up against. Someone tall, but quick is terrible for him. When our midfield is losing they can make position to advantage too quickly, and it doesn't matter how good BB might be one-on-one, if the ball is kicked to the advantage of a guy that moves quicker than him, he's screwed.

- It's dumb. It's short-sighted & it's just dumb. And it's just dumb. And it smacks if putting a dude ahead of the 22. And I just think it's a bit dumb.

I doubt anyone is getting put ahead of the team. The way I imagine it, there may have been some contract realities in play in making this 'experiment' happen. I daresay we had already lost Pitto, and had Ceglar with a contract on the table from another club. I doubt we cooked this idea up because BB really wanted to play back or Ceglar really wanted to be first ruck, and we decided their wishes were more important than anything else.


I suspect we didn't want to go into 2020 with Reeves as only backup ruckman. With Pito likely already sold on his Carlton move, we needed to convince Ceglar to stay, and this BB as KPD is a compromise position to make that happen. If that is what transpired it was about what was best for the club (not having an untried ruck as our only backup) not what was best for Ceglar and BB. Of course that is all speculation, and doesn't really take away from the dumb factor (which I still think you're over playing). A better choicea might have been to throw a more attractive offer to Pitto, and let Ceglar go, but at that point Pitto wasn't clearly any better an option that Ceglar, although with hindsight he has played a couple of handy games for Carlton, but he still looks even less versatile than Ceglar for mine.

I don't necessarily disagree with everything you are saying. I also don't feel the experiment is necessarily the best structure we could have right now, and that McEvoy in the ruck, and resting forward when necessary (with TOB/Lewis/Patton giving him a chop out while he rests), Ceglar at VFL and perhaps Hartley replacing BB in the backline when an extra tall is needed might be a better structure. I just think you're somewhat overstating the catastrophe of it all, and the reality is if this is the situation we agreed to in order not to have Reeves as our only other ruck, then maybe its the lesser of other possibly evils.

 

[Howe Amazing]

We have had the toughest draw of anyone so to be 3-2 isn’t bad, I would just like to see Finn, Day etc be given games like other clubs who are happy to blood their draftees

 

[hk89]

We haven’t been a genuine premiership chance since going out in straight sets in 2016 if we are being totally honest.

Not consistently no. We have had patches of form (such as our run home last year) where we might have troubled most of the teams that went deep into finals. If we actually make finals with that sort of form behind us, then we could snatch a lucky flag. I don't think dogs were the best team in the competition in 2016. The Covid situation makes an already even season much more of a dice roll than usual, so I'm not ruling us out of a chance, without going as far as saying we'd be in the top 4 most likely teams to win a flag. I think the team we have on paper now is the best team we've had since 2016, and better than the team that troubled most of the finals teams in the run home last year. Make the top 8 injury free, and with some good form behind us for confidence, and I don't think we're without a chance this year, of course that is already a few ifs chained together....

 

[SA HAWK]

Not consistently no. We have had patches of form (such as our run home last year) where we might have troubled most of the teams that went deep into finals. If we actually make finals with that sort of form behind us, then we could snatch a lucky flag. I don't think dogs were the best team in the competition in 2016. The Covid situation makes an already even season much more of a dice roll than usual, so I'm not ruling us out of a chance, without going as far as saying we'd be in the top 4 most likely teams to win a flag. I think the team we have on paper now is the best team we've had since 2016, and better than the team that trouble most of the finals teams in the run how last year. Make the top 8 injury free, and with some good form behind us for confidence, and I don't think we're without a chance this year, of course that is already a few ifs chained together....

You are right this is a crazy season i think the ladder would look much different if it had of been a normal year.

A team like Richmond with their injuries i think will struggle to even make finals this year.

 

[Hawk_francais]

Hahaha
As usual, you do your best (I hope so, for your sake) to miss my point.

In your words, ANY OF McEvoy, Sicily, Frawley or Frost could mark Cox when he's in such terrible form.

Sweet - so why not get Sicily, Frawley or Frost to mark the out-of-form Cox, when none of those 3 can hope to cover Grundy in the Ruck - when BigBoy certainly can do a better job than Ceglar?

Trying to rationalise or justify playing BigBoy at CHB to quell the majestic (if out of form) Cox is just ridiculous, when most VFL CHB could do the job.

I’ll just skate over your rudeness. Ceglar can handle the ruckwork against Grundy, and McEvoy might be more useful elsewhere, such as working off Cox to intercept.

Or maybe they drop Ceglar, but I doubt it. Clarko seemed more concerned by our ability to bring the pressure in the forward line. I think there will be a reshuffle at selection.

 

[Pessimistic]

Fair enough we were off the pace, but 11 holding the balls.

the sad part is it was predictable, but for umpires to brazenly pull that s**t without obvious fear of consequences just shows where we are as a ‘sport’

you’d expect it in WWF

 

[Pessimistic]

Is Grundy the new Cameron? How did round 1 work out?

our biggest issue is running out the game and up then down weeks, but hawks are not on their own there

 

[tige19]

He's a role player on a very good side, nothing more

Much better than anything we have

 

[tige19]

In round 1 the Giants did the same thing to the Cats.

68% efficiency inside 50 against us, 51% against Cats.. That’s a significant amount higher

 

[tige19]

He was dropped last week by a team currently sitting below us.

He’s not the answer.

He is better than anything we have, much better. Plus, he may need a change of scenery, Richmond have 6-7 small forwards, we don’t, I think he’d flourish. PS was his dream to be a Hawk, don’t forget that.

 

[tige19]

Wingard is that player. He’s not a midfielder.
Opposition players would soil themselves at the prospect of matching up on him.
His hunger is greatest when the goals are close by.

Chad is a fwd/mid, always has been.. At Port when they needed a lift he’d go in there. Chad is not the high pressure, lighting defensive fwd we need, he is decent in both areas but we need someone who’s first instinct is to pressure up. Chads not that for mine.

 

[Dewnior]

Here's an interesting stat.. we are already -29 free kick differential after R5.

F&$k you Steve Hocking

 

[RobHawk]

Our free kick count for the last 2 weeks: 47-24. The umps and the AFL HATE us. They can't have us getting up and winning yet more flags, it's an embarrassment to the equalisation measures. They can't bring in any more measures of that nature, so this is one of the few ways they can control us these days. Disgusting.

Agree totally. Sadly that free kick ratio probably mirrors the salary cap ratio when you make allowances for ambassadorial payments.
Gil's claim that the most resilient team will become premiers is hogwash. The subtle and not so subtle manouvres of the AFL will determine who wins it.

 

[macdaddio]

How many more games will Timmy be gifted? He hasn’t improved on last years form and he’s been like this his whole career, 1 good year and the following year he goes backwards again.
I’ve never been a fan of his, but thought last he finally made it.

 

[OnTheRocks]

Amazing what a loss does eh, the crystal balls all of a sudden seem a little bit clearer to some.

Whilst others keep on vigorously shaking the snow dome for a better view

 

[Luv_our_club]

You're essentially asking for a rebuild as we sit 6th on the ladder, 3-2, having played the entire top 4 of last year in a season that could throw up anything. I'm keen to move on some of our olds, but playing for 2021 is nuts.

I have no doubt we could ride Clarkson's game plan and our aging champions all the way to a preliminary final. But there is much that is illusory about that success - there is zero pressure for spots in the team and we could be the least skilled in the comp (at least the stats say that).

We need to make major list changes at the end of the year, cut back our list because of Covid, and even make room on the list to pick up cut players from other clubs.


I would rather we spent 2020 finding out about our list, because our best 22 are not the future and are not the makings of a premiership team.

"Moving on some of our olds" is playing for 2021, it is just a different way of saying the same thing.

The only team we have beat that i rate are the Lions, and they were very poor that day.

 

[Xtreme]

Whilst others keep on vigorously shaking the snow dome for a better view

Hawthorn Premiers 2020

Prove me wrong!

 

[Rev08]

Amazing what a loss does eh, the crystal balls all of a sudden seem a little bit clearer to some.

You can say the same for a win though. We had a few world beaters after the last two weeks.

I think we are seeing why Scully cost a 4th round pick (limited ceiling) and why Scrimshaw cost loose change (very talented but constantly injured).

Gotta be somewhat worried about the list three years from now. Conceivably, all of McEvoy, Burgoyne, Frawley, Smith, Stratton, Scully and Henderson are no longer on the list while Breust, Gunston and Shiels will all be 30+. Who's replacing them?

Yes we can get excited about Jeka, CJ, Kosi, Jones, Moore, Walker etc but more than likely, only a few will make the cut. As we have seen with Morrison, most of these kids are drafted late for a reason.

Our strategy is modelled on overseas models where the best franchises can land the biggest free agents on a consistent basis. Problem is, Australian sport operates very differently. It is harder to get players out of their club and, when you do, you are one of a host of attractive options.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[tige19]

You can say the same for a win though. We had a few world beaters after the last two weeks.

I think we are seeing why Scully cost a 4th round pick (limited ceiling) and why Scrimshaw cost loose change (very talented but constantly injured).

Gotta be somewhat worried about the lost three years from now. Conceivably, all of McEvoy, Burgoyne, Frawley, Smith, Stratton, Scully and Henderson are no longer on the list while Breust, Gunston and Shiels will all be 30+. Who's replacing them?

Yes we can get excited about

Scrim is unfortunately put together by string, not ligaments, but string.. very frustrating as he is a high level talent.

 

[TallyHawk]

We're unfit. No hiding from it now.

Unfit or old? Hendo was out on his feet in the last, we are not getting second efforts from Burgoyne anymore, and then there is Puopolo....


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Furn2]

Win next week and we're 4-2 having played the top 5 teams from last year.

This week was disappointing but not every week do U get 11 htb to 1 and your opponent kicks every single set shot.

If we can't beat our bunnies in the Pies then I'll worry.

 

[TylerDurden]

Unfit or old? Hendo was out on his feet in the last, we are not getting second efforts from Burgoyne anymore, and then there is Puopolo....


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

We can't score in last quarters. Had injuries last night, but the concern is that we can't run out games. May need to drop a tall for another runner, I don't know.

 

[Sturty]

Umpiring was a disgrace

 

[MistyAvalon]

and to think I wished for this.. longed to see my hawks again,, wanted them safe.. and where do they land.. damned spotless.. graveyard, site of many hawk massacres.......................

why do we cop the five day turnaround? and of course we have injuries...

Listening to Clarko, a lot went against us...

I am just so miserable.