Autopsy Round 5, 2023: Hawks fall over against Giants

[Dewyyyyy]

IMHO, it's an unfortunate bi-product of the contemporary game. When I was taught to play, back in the Flintstone era, that was what you did. A teammate went for the ball while you assisted by shepherding his opponent. It was expected, and it was reflex. These days, players forgo the shepherd in an attempt to create run and space.

As bad as it looks, the game is leading in this direction as players are so unbelievably skilled to get deft touches out which creates space and run, you need to shepherd, but often it's a hard call between the two, and it can come off and look ugly or it can look absolutely brilliant, it just gets noticed 10x more when it doesn't come off.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I love how much we were a pest to the Giants today, from the Nash tag to Dylan Moore

13

Dylan Moore

Age

24

Ht

177cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

5.1

2star

HB

6.7

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.9

4star

G

0.3

3star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

5.4

5star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

saying "thats good by you" to Nick Haynes

19

Nick Haynes

Age

31

Ht

192cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.4

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

4.9

4star

M

6.2

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

326.8

4star

D

17.4

4star

K

13.9

5star

HB

3.5

2star

M

8.0

5star

T

1.5

2star

MG

326.8

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.2

4star

after he sat down Tyler Brockman, sprinted in to say it and push and shove.

Brockman patting Nick Haynes

19

Nick Haynes

Age

31

Ht

192cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.4

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

4.9

4star

M

6.2

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

326.8

4star

D

17.4

4star

K

13.9

5star

HB

3.5

2star

M

8.0

5star

T

1.5

2star

MG

326.8

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.2

4star

on the head was quite funny aswell.

 

[FB19]

Ah yes, a nil all draw with a VFL level defender. Clearly Kosi is elite and his ability to stop a player who has also been set the task of stopping him is very valuable. I can see how that skill set would translate to playing on a dangerous AFL forward, despite Kosi's lack of recent training in that role, his form and, let's be honest, skill as a defender.

Does anyone think Kozi has a future with us as a forward? I think little to none would. Does he have afl attributes? Some just not sure if enough. Are those attributes more suited to defence? By definition they have to be if we agree he’s not a forward. If that’s all true we should play him down back and find out, the alternative is he stays at Box Hill and gets delisted. It’s unlikely he makes it with us but what do we lose if we play him ahead of frost for some games? Frost is a decent defender but has 0 composure and arguably cost us the win today. As an older player and part of the leadership group he had to do better. Time for him to lead at Box Hill. Kosi was ok at BH as well.

 

[jerry_atrick]

It was a gut wrenching loss, but after my mate, Wolfie Blass visited me, things came into perspective a little more...

Proud of the players today. After last week, it was just as easy for them to write off their season as for us to. But, albeit against a bottom half ot the table team, they showed they weren't going to give up and were going to fight it out. This is a good reason for optimism, as I was worried we would end up a Carlton under Bolton type team - lots of green shoots that ultimately get trodden on. But, this team today proved that is not going to happen.

Best for me today were Newc, Brockman, Amon, Greene, and Impey. Though, like almost everyone else who has commented, Seamus had a great debut, Long should be considered a regular, and Ward was excellent.

I am still not sold on Reeves. Yep, he had a great day by his standards, and yes, he should have had a few frees with his arms being chopped. And late in the final term, his reverse tap to I think it was Newc was sublime (and rehearsed, I would guess). But he does come across as a one-trick pony and if he is in a bit contest or the ball falls below chest-line, he looks like a fish out of water; he seems mobility constrained or something.

Feel for Wingard - freak injury. He was actually causing a bit of grief to the Giant's backs today. Bruest was good up until the corkie, but was still not horribilus anussius after that.

We defo need some competent tall timber in the forward line, and when Lewis comes back, it will be better; but it shows either a lack of depth or a lack of selection quality that we don't have any other option. While I salute Kozzi's commitment, he, like Frost, were behind the door when our maker was handing out the footy lobe of the brain. But, Long, Brockie (when he was in there), and Greene did pretty well, IMHO.

In defence, we are, well, struggling (as we are in the forward line). Sic seems to be burdened by the captaincy, though I did like his occasional run off the HB line today. CJ, to me, had a reasonably good, although sporadic game today. His intercept in the back pocket I think in the third was classy. But, all of our backs today seemed not to be able to make a decent decision between them. Handballing from kickable positions to players under pressure; going across the face into pressure situations, and going long when needing to hold things up seemed to be a real problem, of which I am not sure what the fix could be.

Last but not least.. Worpel.. Who is a personal favourite of mine. It is great to seem him back in the contest,, Now all he needs to do is use the ball he wins to our advantage. That would top things off, nicely, because, today, I can't tell you how close I was to throwing my socks at the tele.

Wolfie calls...

 

[MinerBoy]

Frost reminds me of Shoenmakers, they persisted with him for a long time and he made some big blunders but in the end he was pretty good, but Frost is hard to watch. He had a dodgy reputation for making bad choices before we got him, why did we get him lol

Opposite problem. Shoe would get outpointed defensively but was a beautiful ball user.

Frost makes some great defensive efforts... then always gives the ball back.

 

[Flamin Joe]

Frost reminds me of Shoenmakers, they persisted with him for a long time and he made some big blunders but in the end he was pretty good, but Frost is hard to watch. He had a dodgy reputation for making bad choices before we got him, why did we get him lol

Shoenmakers came good after he was played in his natural position which was as a forward. Was one of my annoyances with Clarko that he kept trying to turn Shoenmakers into something he never was.

Frost is different, he's a great defender just consistently let down by an impulse to want to take the game on at every opportunity. You can't knock that endeavour but you need to have a good feel for the game and where it is at before making the decision to play on quickly or not. He is also let down by poor disposal which in fairness can be put down to his rush to play on and in turn get caught in tight situations requiring quick disposal.

In short he needs to calm the * down and better assess the situation before acting but I don't think this will ever change where ever he plays.

 

[HedgeFund]

There's invariably comments around Sicily looking 'lazy' or laconic at times, and I agree, but I've never been able to identify why watching games live.

However, I just noticed whilst watching the replay of just that - Centre half-wing, GWS kick the ball over Sicily's head, he's joined by two opponents and Impey. Sicily allows Impey to collect the loose ball, the GWS players both attempt to rush Impey, and rather than shepherd/block to make Impey's possession easier he allowed both players to run past him without even consideration of effort. It looked really pathetic.

He’s not on his own.

Modern day players rarely look to lay a shepherd / block nowadays.

However, I would struggle to think of more than handful of times in his career that he has tried to protect a team mate rather than waiting for the handball receive. Not great by a captain.

He should be focusing on that as an RFI because he definitely can improve and the message it would send to the young group is important.

 

[Off The Couch]

 

[HedgeFund]

Nashy nailed it

 

[Louis Litt]

The loss that had to happen but I don’t understand why Sam was smiling all through the game giving off Kumbuhya vibe.
Kingsley - now there is someone I take a bollocking from and s$*7 my daks - your team mates would have a great laugh after that.
first time I have seen the haws play. - mids were great. Backline - last qtr pressure - Would have loved to hear James Bradshaw commentary with Frost.
who was the skinny blonde haired lad in the centre - I think no 32 - every time he touched it he got tackled - stick with it son.
The rucks need to do more - to me Meek did not have enough time on the ball and tried to impose himself. Reeves should be doing a lot more on the ball- both rucks are 23 and they are not apprentices but full tradesman.
cetre was fantastic - no further developments there -

 

[BIGHAWK23]

The loss that had to happen but I don’t understand why Sam was smiling all through the game giving off Kumbuhya vibe.
Kingsley - now there is someone I take a bollocking from and s$*7 my daks - your team mates would have a great laugh after that.
first time I have seen the haws play. - mids were great. Backline - last qtr pressure - Would have loved to hear James Bradshaw commentary with Frost.
who was the skinny blonde haired lad in the centre - I think no 32 - every time he touched it he got tackled - stick with it son.
The rucks need to do more - to me Meek did not have enough time on the ball and tried to impose himself. Reeves should be doing a lot more on the ball- both rucks are 23 and they are not apprentices but full tradesman.
cetre was fantastic - no further developments there -

What the hell is this

 

[Glebehawk]

Surprising to get a solid 4 qtr effort today even if against a lowly side. So much better than last week. Don’t care that we lost, be good for the players to burn and learn from it.

People calling CJ to be dropped? Must be the same people who say Scrim isn’t best 22 - does way more good for us than bad.

Wingard - sorry about the injury mate. But total waste of space in our side, hasn’t done anything for us save for a few flashes of brilliance here and there.

Meek - way to meek. Does this guy have it or ever will?

Morrison - too slow, sloppy wth disposal.

Ward - gets his hands on the footy , a lot!

Newcombe - as tough as they come, just finds a way.

Impey - earned a reprieve for mine, was good today.

Amon - best I’ve seen him play for us so far.

Greene - found space today thank gawd. Worked hard.

Reeves - impacted the game.

Ned Long - what an awesome body he has and was still running out the game late. Must keep playing from now on. Will get better and better! Must.

Mitchell - was pretty good after getting burned in the 1st a few times.

DGB - just don’t know, so hard to read. Would happily trade at years end at this point.

Brockman was better playing a bit higher up the ground and working back not just as a forward target - something to work with there.

Dying for KPP’s at this stage!

Overall a big tick

Agree with most, but keep working with DGB at this point. Not much value trading him at this stage, plus I still believe.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Surprising to get a solid 4 qtr effort today even if against a lowly side. So much better than last week. Don’t care that we lost, be good for the players to burn and learn from it.

People calling CJ to be dropped? Must be the same people who say Scrim isn’t best 22 - does way more good for us than bad.

Wingard - sorry about the injury mate. But total waste of space in our side, hasn’t done anything for us save for a few flashes of brilliance here and there.

Meek - way to meek. Does this guy have it or ever will?

Morrison - too slow, sloppy wth disposal.

Ward - gets his hands on the footy , a lot!

Newcombe - as tough as they come, just finds a way.

Impey - earned a reprieve for mine, was good today.

Amon - best I’ve seen him play for us so far.

Greene - found space today thank gawd. Worked hard.

Reeves - impacted the game.

Ned Long - what an awesome body he has and was still running out the game late. Must keep playing from now on. Will get better and better! Must.

Mitchell - was pretty good after getting burned in the 1st a few times.

DGB - just don’t know, so hard to read. Would happily trade at years end at this point.

Brockman was better playing a bit higher up the ground and working back not just as a forward target - something to work with there.

Dying for KPP’s at this stage!

Overall a big tick

Jeez mate, DGB is a 20yo key defender with about 20 AFL games under his belt. He’s still growing into his frame and gets a free swing this season and next in my opinion.

 

[Hawk88]

Mods, give this person a medal. They've won the dislike : post ratio in a canter

Thanks, ill be here all week. Try the veal!

 

[Roger Rogerson]

I basically never bag players but Chad Wingard...his value to the team by output is worthless this year. I hope his tongue injury today isn't bad, but man alive.

He came into the season fit. What has he produced? We are done with round 5. He's been available for 3 games. His ToG in total is 164 minutes out of a possible 360. About 45% game time (granted he was sub for one game - but he was subbed off injured for the other 2). His output: (These are totals for the season btw)
Kicks: 18
Disposals: 24
Goal: 1
Goal Assist: 1
Tackle: 1
Clearance: 1
Clangers: 4

FOR THE SEASON!! That is for the whole season thus far!

I believe we are playing him because we are so inexperienced BUT I don't think his experience is helping at all. I don't know, i was watching him today a bit. Poor efforts, poor body language.

He looks really really frustrated out there and looks to be trying too hard. He knows his career is on the line.

Didn't like when he threw his arms up in the air after Ferg kicked one to him.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

The loss that had to happen but I don’t understand why Sam was smiling all through the game giving off Kumbuhya vibe.
Kingsley - now there is someone I take a bollocking from and s$*7 my daks - your team mates would have a great laugh after that.
first time I have seen the haws play. - mids were great. Backline - last qtr pressure - Would have loved to hear James Bradshaw commentary with Frost.
who was the skinny blonde haired lad in the centre - I think no 32 - every time he touched it he got tackled - stick with it son.
The rucks need to do more - to me Meek did not have enough time on the ball and tried to impose himself. Reeves should be doing a lot more on the ball- both rucks are 23 and they are not apprentices but full tradesman.
cetre was fantastic - no further developments there -

 

[burner1]

Jeez mate, DGB is a 20yo key defender with about 20 AFL games under his belt. He’s still growing into his frame and gets a free swing this season and next in my opinion.

He seemed to be getting beaten for pace off the mark and reading the play - rather than in wrestles (although is often body work before the leads).
I was surprised how much quicker hogan looked compared to DGB over the first 5 metres. DGB gets some good speed up once he’s going and hits the contest hard - so would come in late (mostly too late) but he really struggled over the first 5 metres or so. Maybe his bulking up has slowed him down - but he has more bulking up to do so appears has a fair way to go on his body.

The other issue is vfl standard is pretty poor these days. There’s such a gap between playing on an undersized vfl forward vs hogan/Himmelberg etc.

 

[KermitJagger]

Does anyone think Kozi has a future with us as a forward? I think little to none would. Does he have afl attributes? Some just not sure if enough. Are those attributes more suited to defence? By definition they have to be if we agree he’s not a forward. If that’s all true we should play him down back and find out, the alternative is he stays at Box Hill and gets delisted. It’s unlikely he makes it with us but what do we lose if we play him ahead of frost for some games? Frost is a decent defender but has 0 composure and arguably cost us the win today. As an older player and part of the leadership group he had to do better. Time for him to lead at Box Hill. Kosi was ok at BH as well.

Kosi was almost delisted because his AFL attributes didn't suit a defender, that's why he's been playing forward for 2 and a half years and why he hasn't trained as a defender for that time. There's no issue if we want to go back and see if he can make it as a defender, but there's no reason why that has to be in the AFL. Try him in the VFL, see what happens - I'd wager nothing.

Know why? Kosi is hardly a paragon of composure, even compared to Frost. Plays like he's lost. There's nowhere to hide as a defender, that's what makes Frost's stuff ups so glaringly bad. Imagine how much more damaging Kosi's marking problems and lack of footy IQ would be down back if they were directly causing turnovers and shots at goal.

Wanting Kosi brought back in to the team is nothing but desperation because he was a defender 6 years ago before he was even drafted. Elevate people that deserve it, not blokes barely playing VFL level footy.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

He seemed to be getting beaten for pace off the mark and reading the play - rather than in wrestles (although is often body work before the leads).
I was surprised how much quicker hogan looked compared to DGB over the first 5 metres. DGB gets some good speed up once he’s going and hits the contest hard - so would come in late (mostly too late) but he really struggled over the first 5 metres or so. Maybe his bulking up has slowed him down - but he has more bulking up to do so appears has a fair way to go on his body.

The other issue is vfl standard is pretty poor these days. There’s such a gap between playing on an undersized vfl forward vs hogan/Himmelberg etc.

Perhaps but with more games his positioning will improve and the ground he'll need to make up on his opponent significantly reduced. Plus, as far as key forwards go Hogan is pretty quick and runs some very smart patterns which makes it easy for a young key defender to get lost. Also, we didn't have a lot of guys willing to put a block/bump on Hogan when he got off DGB.

I have an enormous amount of faith in the kid. I think he will be a superstar of the AFL in years to come.

 

[burger09]

Another positive development game for plenty of players: Newk, Reeves, Nash, Green, Brockman, Ward all showed plenty while Mitchell and Long didn't look out of place and should get a run of games.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

What the hell is this

Bear with him mate. It’s the first time he’s “saw the haws play”.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Thanks, ill be here all week. Try the veal!

Wearing the notoriety of a poor post like a badge of honor. Bold play.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[almuz]

I love Frosty but why why why would you after taking a huge pressure relieving mark then handpass it to a flat footed Hardwick 5 meters from you on the last line of defence????

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I love Frosty but why why why would you after taking a huge pressure relieving mark then handpass it to a flat footed Hardwick 5 meters from you on the last line of defence????

The best of Frost and the worst in the space of 5 seconds!

It’s like he is a fully specced out gaming computer with 32G of RAM, a 2TB hard drive and a top spec graphics card.

But all being run by an overclocked Pentium III CPU that overheats when it has to do anything complex (i stole that last bit from a previous poster but it is so apt).