Autopsy Round 17, 2023 : Hawks go down to Giants

[Strapping Young Lad]

No, people watch the games and see that Reeves offers nothing around the ground and isn't an aerial threat. That isn't a perception, that's literally reality.

He's good at winning taps. Hence the comments from Mitchell regarding taps. This has never been up for debate.

That doesn't change the fact he couldn't exploit two much smaller players, neither of which were actual ruckmen, around the ground. Hence people "came for him" last week. Both things can be true.

Yet it wasn’t true based on Mitchell’s comments.

Sure he could do more around the ground, but Sam made specific mention of our failure at the stoppages last week being at the feet of the mids, not Reeves.

On the weekend he had made multiple contests aerially without being able to mark, however the competing is the first part.

 

[Accipiter]

Yet it wasn’t true based on Mitchell’s comments.

Sure he could do more around the ground, but Sam made specific mention of our failure at the stoppages last week being at the feet of the mids, not Reeves.

On the weekend he had made multiple contests aerially without being able to mark, however the competing is the first part.

I did see him run from the centre with the flight of the ball and attempt to impact a marking contest in the first quarter. In the end he didn't quite have the nerve to crunch the pack face-on (only a crazy-man would). There were some other things he did around the ground that told me that he is trying, maybe too hard ... It is still a time thing and I would stick with it and allow him to grow with the team.

 

[Hodgey 15]

Weddle continued to impress in this game.
How good will he be with 50 games under his belt.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Scrimshaws biggest problem at the moment is his hands.
Didn’t look like taking an intercept mark let alone a contested one.
Second grabs even the loosest of ground balls as well.
Perhaps a trip to the optometrist may be in order.

Idno I think it’s his ability to man up in defence, so he gets lost drops his head and forgets about marking because his so worried about defending. Really a long way to say his position in the team isn’t stable and his lack of development to stem that stability is causing confidence issues with his defending.

Least that’s what I see when I watch him. I know when tom Mitchell was in the team, with cj they were a trio that worked super hard in their off time as well - since he left both cj and scrimshaw have dropped off. He was clearly a strong part in their growth in the game and as he left over night they have both dropped a bit.

For mine now, I don’t think scrimshaw is a one on one defender - we arnt winning a flag with him as defender but he has more then enough talent to be on an afl list so what’s his best position? or is he the 7th man in defence?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

10 Stephen Coniglio

3

Stephen Coniglio

Age

30

Ht

182cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

24.5

5star

K

13.0

5star

HB

11.5

5star

M

3.8

4star

T

4.7

5star

CL

4.7

5star

D

21.3

5star

K

12.5

5star

HB

8.8

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.8

4star

CL

5.4

5star

D

19.2

5star

K

8.2

4star

HB

11.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.2

4star

CL

3.0

5star

(GWS)
7 Jai Newcombe (HAW)
7 Sam Taylor

15

Sam Taylor

Age

24

Ht

198cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.1

4star

MG

130.5

2star

D

8.0

2star

K

2.5

1star

HB

5.5

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.5

3star

MG

60.8

1star

D

8.6

3star

K

3.0

1star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.2

2star

T

2.8

5star

MG

110.8

2star

(GWS)
2 Will Day (HAW)
2 Jesse Hogan

23

Jesse Hogan

Age

29

Ht

196cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.0

4star

K

9.3

4star

HB

5.7

4star

M

6.4

5star

T

1.4

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

10.3

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

4.3

3star

M

5.3

5star

T

0.0

1star

G

0.0

1star

D

13.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

4.0

3star

M

6.4

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.8

5star

(GWS)
1 Conor Nash

11

Conor Nash

Age

25

Ht

198cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.7

2star

K

3.9

2star

HB

4.8

3star

M

2.0

2star

T

3.1

5star

CL

0.3

2star

No current season stats available

D

8.4

3star

K

4.2

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

0.2

2star

(HAW)
1 Finn Maginness (HAW)

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

41 votes for Newk now. Means yes just outside the top 20.

 

[hawkman]

10 Stephen Coniglio (GWS)
7 Jai Newcombe (HAW)
7 Sam Taylor (GWS)
2 Will Day (HAW)
2 Jesse Hogan (GWS)
1 Conor Nash (HAW)
1 Finn Maginness (HAW)

Wonder which way the coaches went on the jobs Nash and Maginness did

 

[almuz]

I did like big Ned going back with the flight in Q1 - haven't seen that from him before

He got up straight away but if he got hurt/took a big grab he would have received a heap of plaudits for that one

 

[MasterSamurai]

GWS have a heap of talent on that list, new and old. They should be gunning for top four not trying to sneak into top eight!
Yet in both games this year, we weren't Farr off putting them away . We need a KPF more than any other side but the other elephant in the room is that our smaller frwds are not that prolific in front of goal. Fix both these issues and we will beat these sort of sides that are just hovering around the eight for years.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

10 Stephen Coniglio (GWS)
7 Jai Newcombe (HAW)
7 Sam Taylor (GWS)
2 Will Day (HAW)
2 Jesse Hogan (GWS)
1 Conor Nash (HAW)
1 Finn Maginness (HAW)

Can't see Reeves in there.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

This dominant ruck issue discussed in detail On The Couch tonight referring to Freo.

Interesting to hear Buck's view that it is just as easy to rove to a losing ruck. We did that in our premiership years.

Carlton have done it 2 weeks in a row. Perhaps Sam needs to change his philosophy. As the said on the couch the centre square taps are such a small part of the game. Perhaps Sam is valuing an advantage in this area too much at the expense of other areas that might be more beneficial to focus upon.

Dunstall said dominant rucks MUST be able to win taps but then take a dozen marks around the ground. His view is do not spend big money on them spend the money on the best mids you can.

 

[thecuzsays]

This dominant ruck issue discussed in detail On The Couch tonight referring to Freo.

Interesting to hear Buck's view that it is just as easy to rove to a losing ruck. We did that in our premiership years.

Carlton have done it 2 weeks in a row. Perhaps Sam needs to change his philosophy. As the said on the couch the centre square taps are such a small part of the game. Perhaps Sam is valuing an advantage in this area too much at the expense of other areas that might be more beneficial to focus upon.

Dunstall said dominant rucks MUST be able to win taps but then take a dozen marks around the ground. His view is do not spend big money on them spend the money on the best mids you can.

Agree . Have to play like Rohan Marshall // Tim English

 

[cryptor]

Can't see Reeves in there.

Can’t see Briggs either tbf

 

[Brishawk]

10 Stephen Coniglio (GWS)
7 Jai Newcombe (HAW)
7 Sam Taylor (GWS)
2 Will Day (HAW)
2 Jesse Hogan (GWS)
1 Conor Nash (HAW)
1 Finn Maginness (HAW)

I thought their backline dominated the game so surprised to only one of their defenders in the votes.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

RE: Forward line & Kozi

I would probably guess Mitch is reading the writing on the wall a bit.

Kozi does structurally make us better, but also has so many deficiencies that he also caps our ceiling to an extent. With nothing to lose this season, and desperate to get some points of difference, I'd say he's experimenting with an already underperforming forward line.

With that in mind, the way Ryan marks and positions himself in Box Hill, I reckon he is VERY close to his debut. He is exactly what we need in a get out mark. We got dominated again in that part of play, where Taylor, Briggs, Idun, Himmel etc. just kept plucking marks when we bombed it out of defence under pressure.

RE: Scrimshaw

Finally, thought Scrimshaw was one of our worst. He's just not a back-shoulder defender - his first half was abysmal. The amount of times he was in no mans land and lost his direct opponent was really damaging. I counted 3 goals directly against him because he allowed his man to find space behind him and Scrim was not watching the lead. Just super disappointing.

Scrim is great as a half back flanker or can even be decent as a +1, but where he's currently being deployed, I worry he's just going to get dropped. He could become trade bait even, as we have better profiles in the half back positions (Mitch clearly wants pace, run and athleticism) and +1 is not getting a look in. It's a head scratcher as I love the bloke - guy looks like a Birchall regen at times.

Bolded.

Came into gameday chat. Will explain here.

Our defense sets up a high press zone. There is often alot of space out the back. It is easier for forwards, naturally. To read their teammates and the ball when going back toward goal, Scrimshaw was setup multiple times in dangerous positions. But the lack of pressure up the field meant he, like others. Were quickly from most dangerous, to the worst positions.

This is how we are currently defending. It isn't a player issue as much as people make it out to be. This needs to be understood, comprehend the difference between gameplan & a players actual issues.

 

[MasterSamurai]

Agree . Have to play like Rohan Marshall // Tim English

I reckon English is a star!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I reckon English is a star!

Remember when he was a laughing stock only a few a years ago?

 

[Kuuz]

Bolded.

Came into gameday chat. Will explain here.

Our defense sets up a high press zone. There is often alot of space out the back. It is easier for forwards, naturally. To read their teammates and the ball when going back toward goal, Scrimshaw was setup multiple times in dangerous positions. But the lack of pressure up the field meant he, like others. Were quickly from most dangerous, to the worst positions.

This is how we are currently defending. It isn't a player issue as much as people make it out to be. This needs to be understood, comprehend the difference between gameplan & a players actual issues.

I agree that on one of the three occassions I counted, you could excuse Scrimshaw's positioning in-part, due to the oppo I50 being from a forward-half turnover, leading to being hit on the counter.

SCRIMSHAW DEFENDING FAST-TRANSITION (TURNOVER)

The most obvious one I think we all saw on the day, was the one replayed by FoxFooty. Ball is turnover via HTB tackle on Wingard & Ward kicks right down the throat to the corridor, finding an unmarked man:



The fast transition down the middle clearly has all of the Hawks out of position immediately. Three blue markers on left show already players leading-into/in-open space.

Ball is progressed to the open players, and through replay vision, Scrim is shown to be in a difficult position:



Scrim seems to wave to another defender to come across and mark Riccardi so he can limit the run of Idun. No one is spare off the counter (Sic would be here 100%).

So Scrim is left with an impossible choice - mark Riccardi but allow Idun to run into an open 50 or close down Idun and force a kick, so elects to sit in between and keep that option open as long as possible:



Idun runs into open space offered, and Hawk mids quickly try to close down space. Scrim still trying to hold both, but has to give Riccardi space and back-shoulder as a result. Riccardi points to kick into space in the deep center:



Play progresses, Idun shapes to kick as his run is checked actually by Greene's run into left half-forward (Dimma following closely like a terrier). Scrim still paranoid about Idun's run, as he probably has only JUST seen Greene/Dimma come into view. Idun kicks a high floated kick to the goal square:



Scrim seeing the kick, tries to catch up to the awaiting Riccardi, but just doesn't have the pace/closing speed to make the difference. Riccardi takes an uncontested mark and goals.

Garry Lyon comments Scrimshaw should have worked harder. TBH, I'm like you - it's a bit stiff. 90% of this goal is on the mids. I just think the way that Scrim runs makes him look a little lackadaisical, but he was pushing as fast as he could. He just doesn't have the closing speed.

You could argue minor positioning misplays (could commit to tracking Ric sooner & force Idun to shoot from 50), but the goal is largely on the mids not working back fast enough and congesting the corridor.

SCRIMSHAW DEFENDING SETUP BACKLINE:

However, your high press zone you cited generally applies when we are operating in the opposition half of the ground. Scrimshaw's most glaring positional mistake, leading to a goal, came off the back of a defensive kickout - where all our players should be in our half of the ground:



The ball is torped out by Dimma, to a contest which the Giants win quickly and spread to the outer side, just outside our 50. Our mids are tracking back, but defence is in position, and each defender is marking their man or guarding the run. Scrimshaw, at earliest vision, is covering Hogan:



At this earliest shot, we can see Scrimshaw is in front position looking to chop the entry off, but is not watching the run. As the entry progresses, Scrimshaw still guards the space, but has lost complete vision of his direct opponent - who has run off his back-shoulder:



Contrast Scrims positioning to the other defenders in Blanck (closest marker up top left) and Weddle (middle center), both of whom are tracking the leads/runs. Even Impey (middle-left) is guarding the lead space, despite being an unlikely option due to the angle of the kicker.

End result, Hogan takes an uncontested mark in a filled back half and slots a goal (fair play to GWS too - the kick from Ash was excellent & was absolutely pin-point to lead-into space):



It feels like in these captures, Scrim just has a habit of preferring to guard space, over guarding the man directly. In my eyes, he's an intercepter who guards space, or a half-back ready to kick into clean options - but is not a back-shoulder, because he gives his man too much leniency on too many occassions.

I'm not showing this to name and shame Scrimshaw - more it feels like he's just not the type of defender suited for where he's being played, and the types of positions suited to his style and profile, are taken by our captain or being filled by those with more athletic profiles.

NOTE: I will admit, when I saw this, I was kinda frustrated beyond all hell, as that mark should have at least been contested - butttt, being a young side, I kinda expect this at times. Further, Sicily normally would 100% intercept that, if playing.

Oki I stop filling up the page now

 

[fairdinks]

I hate to play Devil's advocate but Briggs had a well rounded ruckmans game with 17 disposals, 5 marks, 28 hitouts and 432 meters gained. That's a good days work.

Reeves had 10 disposals, 0 marks, 24 hitouts and 16 meters gained. Not the worst but still not great (zero marks is not great).

Essentially the only aspect he held his own with Briggs was hitouts.

And Briggs is 23 before anyone replies with the familiar "yes but Reeves is only 24".

We will always break even at worst with Reeves in the hitouts but we are still losing out big time with his lack of influence around the ground.

I'm still not sold that he's going to make it, there are very few (any?) pure tap ruckman left in the leauge these days.

I have confidence that Reeves will eventually make it as a more than serviceable ruckman. I now have doubts, however, that he will ever be an around the ground marking ruckman that are so important. One mark in last two games is very poor for a bloke his size. Given Meek also doesn't take many marks, we are stuck with two rucks that probably can't play in the same team regularly. One or tother.
We need to hope Ramma steps up to offer that POD.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I have confidence that Reeves will eventually make it as a more than serviceable ruckman. I now have doubts, however, that he will ever be an around the ground marking ruckman that are so important. One mark in last two games is very poor for a bloke his size. Given Meek also doesn't take many marks, we are stuck with two rucks that probably can't play in the same team regularly. One or tother.
We need to hope Ramma steps up to offer that POD.

Maybe now we are getting a little bit more appreciation for Ceglars time at the club.

Yes he wasn't a particularly great tap ruckman but he was pretty good around the ground, was a fine mark and could actually play forward when required.

A prime Cegs would be a pretty good addition to our current team, he would be an ideal second ruck to back up Reeves (obviously he is pretty banged up now).

I still maintain that prior to his knee injury he was tracking to be one of the best ruckman in the leauge.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I reckon English is a star!

He's pretty much your prototype ruck for 2023.

Decent enough in the hitouts but then can rack up 20 possessions and 6 marks around the ground as an extra mid. Such an advantage to have in your team.

He's always been quite good at this, I'm not sure why he copped such criticism early days (maybe cause he was such a high pick for a ruck).

 

[SSSSSS]

He's pretty much your prototype ruck for 2023.

Decent enough in the hitouts but then can rack up 20 possessions and 6 marks around the ground as an extra mid. Such an advantage to have in your team.

He's always been quite good at this, I'm not sure why he copped such criticism early days (maybe cause he was such a high pick for a ruck).

I think it was because he was a soft kent.

Seemed to have hardened up after building his body.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Maybe now we are getting a little bit more appreciation for Ceglars time at the club.

Yes he wasn't a particularly great tap ruckman but he was pretty good around the ground, was a fine mark and could actually play forward when required.

A prime Cegs would be a pretty good addition to our current team, he would be an ideal second ruck to back up Reeves (obviously he is pretty banged up now).

I still maintain that prior to his knee injury he was tracking to be one of the best ruckman in the leauge.

I haven't thought about Cegs leaving once and had any regret. Was such a frustrating player and always injured. What you have said is correct in terms of his capabilities but his form was seriously patchy when he could get on the park.

 

[peetoo]

Not that current coaches are bad, but did big monkey help average rucks look better?