POLL - Do you support KNEELING?

[Verdun]

I'm fine - your Antifa heroes aren't though

Apologies for the late reply, been out for a walk.


Pleased you are ok FF, not sure where you got the idea Antifa are my heroes.....assuming a bit for a silly gotcha moment.

 

[Forward Flank]

Black athletes should withdraw their labour until more is done about inequality in America. Sporting boycotts have traditionally been very effective ways of enacting change.

Ratings for woke American sports are down, and sharply. I hope the boycotts do continue - all they do is turn more normal people against the radical left.

 

[rank and file]

Josh Kennedy took a knee and it didn't do him much good.

 

[Toppa]

Yep - if you think I have been 'slinging sh*t' call me out, no problem with that all. Please provide quotes.

This thread is titled do you support kneeling, it seems to have got off track.

Just so we are clear, i wasnt accusing or targeting you or the others named. I thought i made that clear. Slinging s**t may have been the wrong term, i accept that, however the past few pages or more have 2 opposite sides having a go back and forth as opposed to discussing the issue.

Agreed it has gotten off topic, but I giving you more credit than just thinking that a yes/no answer is sufficient on such a topic. If thats all you want then feel free to ignore my question and go about your business but i wont be drawn into any he said/she stuff

 

[Chief]

I'm saying the narrative that they get treated more harshly in the system is false.

An incarceration figure is meaningless if it doesn't come with that piece of information which tells you how many chances the were given before they were jailed.

A "narrative" isn't needed.

The data does all the work.

 

[Bostonian]

A "narrative" isn't needed.

The data does all the work.

The data doesn't show us leniency or judges giving offenders second, third or forth chances.

Unless you can point me to the data that shows us this information. I would actually like to see how common it is fir crims to be actually given no real punishment for their crimes.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Ratings for woke American sports are down, and sharply. I hope the boycotts do continue - all they do is turn more normal people against the radical left.

They don't seem to understand this do they? It's only exacerbating the situation and creating more damage than good.

 

[projectv]

Ratings for woke American sports are down, and sharply. I hope the boycotts do continue - all they do is turn more normal people against the radical left.

They're billion dollar industries I'm sure they'll do just fine losing a few viewers who think they're sticking it to the man when in reality they are utterly insignificant.

There is a reason why companies and sports are doing this, and I promise you, it's not to lose money. It's to make money. Every dollar they lose from a viewer is made back in goodwill generated by the brand. It's all marketing, don't get sucked into it.

 

[Gough]

Ratings for woke American sports are down, and sharply. I hope the boycotts do continue - all they do is turn more normal people against the radical left.

Cletus Methhead no longer watching the NBA or NFL won't be cause for the people to run the leagues to lose a lot of sleep.

 

[Verdun]

Just so we are clear, i wasnt accusing or targeting you or the others named. I thought i made that clear. Slinging sh*t may have been the wrong term, i accept that, however the past few pages or more have 2 opposite sides having a go back and forth as opposed to discussing the issue.

Agreed it has gotten off topic, but I giving you more credit than just thinking that a yes/no answer is sufficient on such a topic. If thats all you want then feel free to ignore my question and go about your business but i wont be drawn into any he said/she stuff

Not trying to ignore your question, was not sure what your question was! - as projectv says and I agree, I believe there is frustration at obvious trolling going on by a few posters.

Saying that I believe there is now a kneejerk reaction when racism or another issue is called out for others to say - you can't say that, that is limiting my free speech. Racism and racial inequality exists, this thread now has a lot of posters who do not believe that - that's fine.

Taking the knee as a peaceful form of protest by Colin Kaepernick against policy brutality and racial inequality - there are those who believe these do not exist. I do. The irony is that it is peaceful protest and there has been more killings by right wing extremists than any protests against racial inequality and police brutality. American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead

Could list them but it would take a while, it would include one of our own Australians in New Zealand, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead over the last 10 years.

Two days ago it was 4 years since Colin Kaepernick first started his peaceful protest - that is the reason this thread has been kicked back in, I believe peaceful protest should continue when someone is shot in the back 7 times.

 

[Toppa]

Hi there.

My hyperbole towards a few certain posters was purely because they are obvious trolls. I'd be happy to have a discussion about this with you.

In my opinion, it's less an issue of racism and more an issue of misuse of institutional power, ie, the police force acting in ways that are excessive.

It sometimes targets minority groups, but overwhelmingly, it targets people that are working class or in poverty. Police exist to protect capital.

Whilst I would consider myself to be someone who is anti-racist, I do feel that parts of the BLM movement have been hijacked by neoliberals who are using it as an opportunity to a) make money out of it through brand positioning and b) more than happy to use the race card as a way of dividing the working class - so that the working class does not unite against them.

The question of kneeling is interesting. Is it important to bring attention to issues? Of course. Does it materially achieve anything by itself? I don't think so. Spurring conversations are good, but spurring systematic political and/or socio-economic change is better. The latter can't happen without the former, so that's progress at least.

What do you think about the protests?

Thanks for the response.

I partially agree with the first part re misuse of institutional power although im not sure its deliberate, more so misguided or uninformed. I dont agree that police exist to protect capital, but that could be an interpretation difference. I have family who are police and i have family who are or have been in and out of prison. The vast majority of police i know genuinely do not go out to hurt or harm people and are not racist nor do they 'pick' on the groups youve listed above(not saying you are)

Agree re BLM. Ie not heard it expressed they way you have and i think it is spot on. I support the cause but not their actions. Nobody will convince me that rioting/looting and burning cities to the ground is how to effect change. many of the businesses, neighbourhoods and people most affected are the very people they claim to be protesting for which is so sad and if anything it creates greater division between all races.

Re kneeling, i dont really care if they players want to do it or not. It doesnt affect me, offend or trigger me 1 way or the other. If they feel it sheds light on the issue then more power to them. What i dont agree with, or think is hurtful is that i dont think every player (afl in this instance) wanted to kneel but through peer pressure or fear of being branded something in the media or social media they succumbed.

Progress will only happen if the people that matter the most have a voice equally in a forum that is committed to systemic change. what that change looks like is to be determined i guess, but white blaming/shaming, cop bashing or screaming inequalities every time something in the world happens we dont like, i think has proven not to work only further divides us.

Just on progress... if we could shut down MSM or at least hold them accountable for the s**t they spew with total disregard for the facts or damage they cause we would be much better off.

 

[GoTheMightyCrows]

Two days ago it was 4 years since Colin Kaepernick first started his peaceful protest - that is the reason this thread has been kicked back in, I believe peaceful protest should continue when someone is shot in the back 7 times.

How should people protest when Police are killed or when black people kill black people?

 

[Verdun]

How should people protest when Police are killed or when black people kill black people?

Toppa this is what I and others are referring to.

Here we go again.......where did I say police being killed and black people kill people is not an issue??

I can believe in Police and respect them but also want change and improvements they are not mutually exclusive.

Do you believe in the right to kneel and do you believe there is racial inequality???

 

[GoTheMightyCrows]

Toppa this is what I and others are referring to.

Here we go again.......where did I say police being killed and black people kill people is not an issue??

I can believe in Police and respect them but also want change and improvements they are not mutually exclusive.

Do you believe in the right to kneel and do you believe there is racial inequality???

I believe in the right to kneel but also believe it's stupid bringing politics like that into a sporting ground where people want to escape for just 2 hours and enjoy 2 groups of knuckleheads catching and kicking a ball.

**nice to see that you didn't even go close to answering my question but in all honesty I didn't think you actually would.

 

[Verdun]

Thanks for the response.

I partially agree with the first part re misuse of institutional power although im not sure its deliberate, more so misguided or uninformed. I dont agree that police exist to protect capital, but that could be an interpretation difference. I have family who are police and i have family who are or have been in and out of prison. The vast majority of police i know genuinely do not go out to hurt or harm people and are not racist nor do they 'pick' on the groups youve listed above(not saying you are)

Agree re BLM. Ie not heard it expressed they way you have and i think it is spot on. I support the cause but not their actions. Nobody will convince me that rioting/looting and burning cities to the ground is how to effect change. many of the businesses, neighbourhoods and people most affected are the very people they claim to be protesting for which is so sad and if anything it creates greater division between all races.

Re kneeling, i dont really care if they players want to do it or not. It doesnt affect me, offend or trigger me 1 way or the other. If they feel it sheds light on the issue then more power to them. What i dont agree with, or think is hurtful is that i dont think every player (afl in this instance) wanted to kneel but through peer pressure or fear of being branded something in the media or social media they succumbed.

Progress will only happen if the people that matter the most have a voice equally in a forum that is committed to systemic change. what that change looks like is to be determined i guess, but white blaming/shaming, cop bashing or screaming inequalities every time something in the world happens we dont like, i think has proven not to work only further divides us.

Just on progress... if we could shut down MSM or at least hold them accountable for the sh*t they spew with total disregard for the facts or damage they cause we would be much better off.

Good post,although - this to me is quite defensive:

'but white blaming/shaming, cop bashing or screaming inequalities every time something in the world happens we dont like, i think has proven not to work only further divides us.'

I do not believe it is white blaming /shaming, cop bashing to acknowledge that pointing out that shooting someone in the back and believing that racial inequalities exist. I do not experience racism the same as others do and to say I do is just as destructive as denying it exists.

I believe in the police but I also believe they can improve.

 

[projectv]

Thanks for the response.

I partially agree with the first part re misuse of institutional power although im not sure its deliberate, more so misguided or uninformed. I dont agree that police exist to protect capital, but that could be an interpretation difference. I have family who are police and i have family who are or have been in and out of prison. The vast majority of police i know genuinely do not go out to hurt or harm people and are not racist nor do they 'pick' on the groups youve listed above(not saying you are)

Agree re BLM. Ie not heard it expressed they way you have and i think it is spot on. I support the cause but not their actions. Nobody will convince me that rioting/looting and burning cities to the ground is how to effect change. many of the businesses, neighbourhoods and people most affected are the very people they claim to be protesting for which is so sad and if anything it creates greater division between all races.

Re kneeling, i dont really care if they players want to do it or not. It doesnt affect me, offend or trigger me 1 way or the other. If they feel it sheds light on the issue then more power to them. What i dont agree with, or think is hurtful is that i dont think every player (afl in this instance) wanted to kneel but through peer pressure or fear of being branded something in the media or social media they succumbed.

Progress will only happen if the people that matter the most have a voice equally in a forum that is committed to systemic change. what that change looks like is to be determined i guess, but white blaming/shaming, cop bashing or screaming inequalities every time something in the world happens we dont like, i think has proven not to work only further divides us.

Just on progress... if we could shut down MSM or at least hold them accountable for the sh*t they spew with total disregard for the facts or damage they cause we would be much better off.

Yeah I don't think the peer pressure element of it is useful. It could also be that some players are just genuinely uneducated about the issue and may not want to participate because of that, and then to be labeled as insensitive or racist as a result is not fair and may actually end up just pushing them to the right. It's always important to judge based on perceivable actions and not based on made up ones. This is definitely something I see a lot hanging out in far-left spaces - the tendency to purity test and cancel things that don't meet your standards. It's not helpful at all.

Riots and protest may seem distasteful but if you look back through history, many social changes that happened didn't just happen due to asking the powers that be or due to peaceful protest, they came through violence. See Stonewall, the Civil rights movement through the Black Panthers. Often violence is required. The important thing is that the violence is applied appropriately and not indiscriminately. When not done carefully, it damages the movement.

As an example, there is a poster in this thread who carries on about Antifa like they're some kind of booeyman living rent free in his head. Many anti-fascist activities don't involve violence at all but are geared solely around disrupting fascist activities. Sometimes they are tactical use of violence for useful propaganda (punching Richard Spencer lol) and sometimes they are utterly insane and target things that just make them look bad. The key is to be tactical, and that's also where i have some criticisms of BLM as well. Burning the police station responsible for the officers that killed George Floyd = Good praxis. Burning small business = bad praxis.

And yeah I agree with you on MSM, as I get older and more jaded it just seems more and more like snake oil for boomers.

 

[Toppa]

Not trying to ignore your question, was not sure what your question was! - as projectv says and I agree, I believe there is frustration at obvious trolling going on by a few posters.

Saying that I believe there is now a kneejerk reaction when racism or another issue is called out for others to say - you can't say that, that is limiting my free speech. Racism and racial inequality exists, this thread now has a lot of posters who do not believe that - that's fine.

Taking the knee as a peaceful form of protest by Colin Kaepernick against policy brutality and racial inequality - there are those who believe these do not exist. I do. The irony is that it is peaceful protest and there has been more killings by right wing extremists than any protests against racial inequality and police brutality. American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead

Could list them but it would take a while, it would include one of our own Australians in New Zealand, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead over the last 10 years.

Two days ago it was 4 years since Colin Kaepernick first started his peaceful protest - that is the reason this thread has been kicked back in, I believe peaceful protest should continue when someone is shot in the back 7 times.

All good Verdun,

my question was - what do you think is needed to be done to rectify these issues locally if you think they exist here.

No doubt frustration exists - but it exists both ways and this is the crux of the issue. Both positions think they are right and are unwilling to (it seems) to even attempt to view it from a different position. this is not limited to this forum, its how the left/right thing work, political parties etc.

For the record i agree racism and inequality does exist. Your just an idiot if you dont believe that. The greater question in my view is... Is this done on purpose, intentionally with malice? or is the residual effect of 7 billion people in a world with competing interests.

As for the numbers youve posted, i cant dispute those and happy to take you at your word they are accurate. I would only say that moving forward, at some point someone has to put their hand up and say ok, past atrocities cannot be undone - what do we need to do moving forward so it doesnt happen again. Tit for Tat tracing back 100's of years only serves to continually fuel race based disagreements.

I watched a interview recently where morgan freeman said to the interiewer words to the effect... how about you stop calling me a black man, ill stop calling you a white man and we can just be men. Gold if you ask me

 

[Verdun]

where did I say police being killed and black people kill people is not an issue??

I can believe in Police and respect them but also want change and improvements they are not mutually exclusive.

I believe in the right to kneel but also believe it's stupid bringing politics like that into a sporting ground where people want to escape for just 2 hours and enjoy 2 groups of knuckleheads catching and kicking a ball.

**nice to see that you didn't even go close to answering my question but in all honesty I didn't think you actually would.

I did answer your question - you just didn't like it.

If you believe politics has not been part of sport for decades you are naive - ask Nicky Winmar, Eddie Betts, Adam Goodes or even Robert Muir.

If kneeling offends you - get over it, there are bigger issues to get offended by.

 

[Verdun]

All good Verdun,

my question was - what do you think is needed to be done to rectify these issues locally if you think they exist here.

No doubt frustration exists - but it exists both ways and this is the crux of the issue. Both positions think they are right and are unwilling to (it seems) to even attempt to view it from a different position. this is not limited to this forum, its how the left/right thing work, political parties etc.

For the record i agree racism and inequality does exist. Your just an idiot if you dont believe that. The greater question in my view is... Is this done on purpose, intentionally with malice? or is the residual effect of 7 billion people in a world with competing interests.

As for the numbers youve posted, i cant dispute those and happy to take you at your word they are accurate. I would only say that moving forward, at some point someone has to put their hand up and say ok, past atrocities cannot be undone - what do we need to do moving forward so it doesnt happen again. Tit for Tat tracing back 100's of years only serves to continually fuel race based disagreements.

I watched a interview recently where morgan freeman said to the interiewer words to the effect... how about you stop calling me a black man, ill stop calling you a white man and we can just be men. Gold if you ask me

Good post - I do believe we need to acknowledge the trauma that occurs to be able to move on. Once this occurs open dialogue can occur without offence taken for something like an imaginary spear being thrown as a way of expressing culture, agree there comes a time when the offence and vitriol should stop.

 

[Verdun]

Harris do you have a comment or just hiding behind the dislike button? Conversation is good.

 

[David Bondo]

What's strange is that the same people (white) that supposedly stop black people from achieving in life, allow Asians to beat them in almost every area. Education outcomes, employment rates, higher average income than whites.

Some racists eh?

Plus Asians aren't singled out for special welfare allowance, job quotas, etc. Asians definitely don't compete with black and white people on a level playing field.

 

[Forward Flank]

Cletus Methhead no longer watching the NBA or NFL won't be cause for the people to run the leagues to lose a lot of sleep.

Normal Americans prefer to watch sport without politics getting involved. The NBA's ratings drop would be a major concern for the league

NBA Ratings Continue To Be Inexplicably Low - Game 7

NBA ratings continue to be inexplicably low this month, with all of Twitter chatter not translating into an actual increase in viewers.

itsgame7.com

 

[GoTheMightyCrows]

Harris do you have a comment or just hiding behind the dislike button? Conversation is good.

Lol, you just stated, "If kneeling offends you - get over it" which hardly come across as someone who wants conversation but more like telling me to accept your leftist views and shut the hell up!!

 

[projectv]

How should people protest when Police are killed or when black people kill black people?

The response should be proportionate to the power conditions that led to the event to happen.

Police aren't an oppressed group of people. They have a lot of power, can legally use deadly force (albeit with red tape of course depending on where they are located). Police being killed is actually a big deal in Australia, it gets a lot of media attention, partly because it so rarely occurs. If police were being killed daily and were being oppressed by some other power, then your scenario would be analogous.

The same can be said for when black people kill black people, I assume you aren't referring to black police officers - there is also no power dynamic between the two groups.

This is why when people in power (police, the military) kill people that are not in power (all different colours of people, poor people), you see a more visceral reaction. It's much like if politicians were abusing their power, you see protests. It's the power dynamic that triggers it.

 

[Forward Flank]

They're billion dollar industries I'm sure they'll do just fine losing a few viewers who think they're sticking it to the man when in reality they are utterly insignificant.

There is a reason why companies and sports are doing this, and I promise you, it's not to lose money. It's to make money. Every dollar they lose from a viewer is made back in goodwill generated by the brand. It's all marketing, don't get sucked into it.

I agree with you that corporations worked out the left. Remember Occupy Wall St? How quickly that died off once corporations worked out that could profit from these idiots with meaningless gestures to make them happy, like changing their Facebook profile picture to a rainbow flag.