Analysis The Richmond dynasty

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I'm probably gonna get so much flak for this, but my view is...

Richmond considered a 'dynasty' is a bit of a stretch considering the quality of opposition they have come up against.

Geelong had to overcome a rampant powerhouse in Collingwood, a defensive-pressure machine in St Kilda, and an up and coming powerhouse in Hawthorn to win 3 premierships. It took them 5 years because there were some great teams back then!

Same with Hawthorn, the quality of opposition they had to deal with would make Richmond struggle.

Same with Brisbane. They had arguably one of *Essendon's best sides to deal with.

If the Tigers came up against one of St Kilda, Geelong, or Collingwood in one of 2009, 2010, or 2011, they would get reamed.

If the quality of opposition was similar to what it was back then, I would accept that the Tigers have been a fantastic side and deserve to be with one of the greats. But to say it beats teams like Geelong and Hawthorn back then and is up there with teams like Brisbane is an insult to those teams.

There are replays on YT that show exactly what I mean. Let me ask everyone this, that game between St Kilda and Geelong in Rd 14, 2009, how would Richmond of today go in that?
 
amaz199 said:
I'm probably gonna get so much flak for this, but my view is...

Richmond considered a 'dynasty' is a bit of a stretch considering the quality of opposition they have come up against.

Geelong had to overcome a rampant powerhouse in Collingwood, a defensive-pressure machine in St Kilda, and an up and coming powerhouse in Hawthorn to win 3 premierships. It took them 5 years because there were some great teams back then!

Same with Hawthorn, the quality of opposition they had to deal with would make Richmond struggle.

Same with Brisbane. They had arguably one of *Essendon's best sides to deal with.

If the Tigers came up against one of St Kilda, Geelong, or Collingwood in one of 2009, 2010, or 2011, they would get reamed.

If the quality of opposition was similar to what it was back then, I would accept that the Tigers have been a fantastic side and deserve to be with one of the greats. But to say it beats teams like Geelong and Hawthorn back then and is up there with teams like Brisbane is an insult to those teams.

There are replays on YT that show exactly what I mean. Let me ask everyone this, that game between St Kilda and Geelong in Rd 14, 2009, how would Richmond of today go in that?
Click to expand...
Comparing teams from different eras isn’t as simple as that though.

You have to factor in how athletic and how under pressure players are nowadays. Would teams like Geelong and St Kilda of 2009 be able to withstand the pressure that teams put on them nowadays? Maybe they could, maybe they wouldn’t be able to. Pressure takes away your skills, so it’s hard to tell.

Even if Geelong in 2007-2011 went against more quality opposition, this is a fully-formed 18-team competition. Back then it was a 16-team competition. It’s much tougher to get 2-3 teams nowadays that are full of quality on all lines unlike the days of 2009.

Therefore, I think a dynasty is applicable because the one measure that remains consistent in judging a dynasty is Premierships, and 3 Premierships in 4 years tells the tale of a dynasty.
 
mikey127 said:
No way Bank ahead of Keating and probably not ahead of Beau McDonald. Cotch 4 years ago makes easily now I'm not so sure.

As for the others who in the Lions best 22 are you putting them ahead of?
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Ruck aside, Rance has Mal Michael and Leppa covered. 5 All Australians and Best and Fairest, Was still at his peak when he retired.

Riewoldt has Lynch covered (brown the other KPF). More goals in an era where goals are harder to come by. 3 Colemans, 9 club goalking v 4, 3 AA v 1, 2 B&F to 0. Coleman, AA and B&F in a Minor premiership year in 18 so you can't say he hasn't contributed to the Dynsasty like some people like to claim.

Martin on the Half forward line, and Cotchin pushes Akermanis to the other Flank. Edwards has Notting covered.

Johnson Rance Houli
Vlastuin Leppitch Ashcroft
Edwards Cotchin Lappin
Martin Brown Akermanis
Power Riewoldt Keating
Nankervis Voss Black
Pike, Hart, Prestia, Grimes

12 Lions, 10 Tigers. How did I do?
 

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RichLeMonde said:
Brisbane were handed it all on a silver platter. They picked the best of the Fitzroy carcas..
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No they didn't. They didn't take Fitzroy's 1996 Best and Fairest Martin Pike, they didn't take the second in the Best and Fairest Matthew Primus or Fitzroy''s top goalkicker Anthony Mellington. Matthew Dent, Stephen Paxman and Rowan Warfe went on to have good careers at other clubs...in fact better post-Fitzroy careers than Brad Boyd (retired 1999), Simon Hawking (who never played an AFL game after Fitzroy), Nick Carter, Scott Bamford and Shane Clayton.

RichLeMonde said:
They had extra room in the salary cap so they could keep players in a way that 2000 Essendon couldn't,
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Yes they had a retention allowance because only on average 20%-30% of their list was actually from their home state, unlike most AFL clubs who had between 50-60% of their list from the state they were located in.
 
Mootsy said:
Brendan Gale from 2010, a time traveller confirmed.

Click to expand...


Garry Lyon at his finest. 0 minutes 42 seconds in.

"Were you embarrassed by that?"

No Garry, but you look like a complete dickhead now.

Gale looks like someone who made one hell of a ballsy statement and didn't shy away from it. Gutsy to put it mildly.
 
amaz199 said:
I'm probably gonna get so much flak for this, but my view is...

Richmond considered a 'dynasty' is a bit of a stretch considering the quality of opposition they have come up against.

Geelong had to overcome a rampant powerhouse in Collingwood, a defensive-pressure machine in St Kilda, and an up and coming powerhouse in Hawthorn to win 3 premierships. It took them 5 years because there were some great teams back then!

Same with Hawthorn, the quality of opposition they had to deal with would make Richmond struggle.

Same with Brisbane. They had arguably one of *Essendon's best sides to deal with.

If the Tigers came up against one of St Kilda, Geelong, or Collingwood in one of 2009, 2010, or 2011, they would get reamed.

If the quality of opposition was similar to what it was back then, I would accept that the Tigers have been a fantastic side and deserve to be with one of the greats. But to say it beats teams like Geelong and Hawthorn back then and is up there with teams like Brisbane is an insult to those teams.

There are replays on YT that show exactly what I mean. Let me ask everyone this, that game between St Kilda and Geelong in Rd 14, 2009, how would Richmond of today go in that?
Click to expand...
They won 3 flags. What exactly are they stretching? Do they need to win 4 or 5 for you? The results are the results. If you want to start weighting premierships you'll have a lot of work going through every team every year to assess the competition. Probably much more sensible to just consider the best the best for each season.

I'm pretty sure this "dynasty" tag refers to winning multiple flags, they've done that and deserve the tag if that's what it means in this context.
 
A lot of posters here have little connection with logic, if at all. You say the other dynasties had a bigger gap from their opponents in terms of talent/playing ability and this is true. The fact that the Tigers won 3 flags in 4 years, despite their list not being superior to the lists of other teams, adds strongly to the argument that we may be the best team ever. If we keep beating you even if we are not better than you, we are a champion team with huge intangibles, are we not? Richmond, as a whole, are way more that the sum of their parts. This is the definition of a champion team, people!


Shut up all of you! We are great…..

:p
 
mikey127 said:
Disagree. Mal Michael and Lepoa were guns and would have them ahead of Rance and Grimes. Mal Michael started on the bench in 01 ahd when he came on it helped turn the game.
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Haha - this made me chuckle!
 
Amazing how this untouchable Brisbane side that many think hardly any Richmond players can replace won their GFs by, 26, 9, 11 points and were thrashed by Port Power by 40 points in the 2004 GF.

Tigers have won by, 48, 89 and after being 15 points down at 1/2 time won by 31 in a reduced 4 quarter game

Pay some credit where credit is due

This Tiger backline is as good if not better than any that I have seen. Just get the job done and they all play their role as expected and compliment each other brilliantly
The class of Edwards, Cotchin, Martin, Bolton is just magic, Graham reliable reliable reliable, Prestia just an engine...

Reiwoldt had a quiet year but had been great in the past, Lynch what can I say...
I could go on, but I guess we just have to turn up again next year, and perhaps the year after... and maybe just maybe this team may be given some credit...
 
B&F top 10

RankPlayerVotesGmsCareerAgeTop 10
1stShort, Jayden53219224y274d2
2ndMartin, Dustin502024429y120d11
3rdVlastuin, Nick492016126y188d5
4thBolton, Shai44194721y321d1
5thMcIntosh, Kamdyn431810826y204d1
6thBaker, Liam42204222y271d1
7thGrimes, Dylan412017129y100d6
8thBalta, Noah40173021y1d1
9thLambert, Kane392011528y333d4
10thCotchin, Trent371725130y200d10

Short, Baker, Lambert former rookies + Grimes PSD.
 

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Brisbane (3 in 3, all interstate) > Hawks (3 in 3) > Richmond (3 in 4)* > Geelong (3 in 5)

*Strongly placed for 4 in 5
 
amaz199 said:
I'm probably gonna get so much flak for this, but my view is...

Richmond considered a 'dynasty' is a bit of a stretch considering the quality of opposition they have come up against.

Geelong had to overcome a rampant powerhouse in Collingwood, a defensive-pressure machine in St Kilda, and an up and coming powerhouse in Hawthorn to win 3 premierships. It took them 5 years because there were some great teams back then!

Same with Hawthorn, the quality of opposition they had to deal with would make Richmond struggle.

Same with Brisbane. They had arguably one of *Essendon's best sides to deal with.

If the Tigers came up against one of St Kilda, Geelong, or Collingwood in one of 2009, 2010, or 2011, they would get reamed.

If the quality of opposition was similar to what it was back then, I would accept that the Tigers have been a fantastic side and deserve to be with one of the greats. But to say it beats teams like Geelong and Hawthorn back then and is up there with teams like Brisbane is an insult to those teams.

There are replays on YT that show exactly what I mean. Let me ask everyone this, that game between St Kilda and Geelong in Rd 14, 2009, how would Richmond of today go in that?
Click to expand...

Richmond did beat that great Hawthorn team. 3 times. With Vickery, Nahas, Luke McGuane and Ricky Petterd in their side
 
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Barry_Badrinath said:


Richmond did beat that great Hawthorn team. 3 times. With Vickery, Nahas, Luke McGuane and Ricky Petterd in their side
Click to expand...

Classic
 
Stealth69 said:
This Tiger backline is as good if not better than any that I have seen. Just get the job done and they all play their role as expected and compliment each other brilliantly
Click to expand...

Just saw the BF for Tigers tonight won by a gun defender

Jayden Short 2nd best player in the GF after Martin

25 disposals, (9contested, 11uncontested, 8 intercept possessions) 18 kicks, 7 handballs, 3 marks, 6 tackles, 6 score involvements playing, 7 rebound 50, 7 inside 50, 15 pressure acts, 771 metres gain!!!

Short passed the 400 metres gained mark in 17 games throughout the year

2020 Best & Fairest

Short averaged 20.6 disposals, 1.1 goals, 3.7 clearances, 5.4 inside-50s, 5.8 score involvements and 365.8 metres gained in his 20 games for the season.
At Tigerland, he was ranked No. 1 for disposals, No. 1 for inside-50s, No. 1 for clearances, No. 1 for score involvements and No. 2 for metres gained.

Short is one of the less acclaimed defenders at RFC, behind Grimes, Astbury, Houli, Broad...an unknown defender by most, Baker is in a similar boat has been brilliant this year and what can I say about Balta, plays the big man in defence so well this year and was thrown into the ruck 2nd half in this year's GF and one of the reasons we clicked

This Tiger defence is elite and the foundation and a big reason for our success

Rance who many in the media have stated is right up there with some of the the best defenders to have ever played the game may struggle to get a game lol
 
Barry_Badrinath said:
Richmond did beat that great Hawthorn team. 3 times. With Vickery, Nahas, Luke McGuane and Ricky Petterd in their side
Click to expand...

Its not that we beat that team h2h. Its more that same poor Richmond team went 15-7 twice in those 3 years and won 9 in a row in the other year. Yet everyone says Hawthorn were playing against far better quality. The North Melbourne side that made two prelims in those years and beat us were hardly an all time great team.
 
amaz199 said:
I'm probably gonna get so much flak for this, but my view is...

Richmond considered a 'dynasty' is a bit of a stretch considering the quality of opposition they have come up against.

Geelong had to overcome a rampant powerhouse in Collingwood, a defensive-pressure machine in St Kilda, and an up and coming powerhouse in Hawthorn to win 3 premierships. It took them 5 years because there were some great teams back then!

Same with Hawthorn, the quality of opposition they had to deal with would make Richmond struggle.

Same with Brisbane. They had arguably one of *Essendon's best sides to deal with.

If the Tigers came up against one of St Kilda, Geelong, or Collingwood in one of 2009, 2010, or 2011, they would get reamed.

If the quality of opposition was similar to what it was back then, I would accept that the Tigers have been a fantastic side and deserve to be with one of the greats. But to say it beats teams like Geelong and Hawthorn back then and is up there with teams like Brisbane is an insult to those teams.

There are replays on YT that show exactly what I mean. Let me ask everyone this, that game between St Kilda and Geelong in Rd 14, 2009, how would Richmond of today go in that?
Click to expand...
Wishful thinking is narcotic.
 
Ron The Bear said:
B&F top 10

RankPlayerVotesGmsCareerAgeTop 10
1stShort, Jayden53219224y274d2
2ndMartin, Dustin502024429y120d11
3rdVlastuin, Nick492016126y188d5
4thBolton, Shai44194721y321d1
5thMcIntosh, Kamdyn431810826y204d1
6thBaker, Liam42204222y271d1
7thGrimes, Dylan412017129y100d6
8thBalta, Noah40173021y1d1
9thLambert, Kane392011528y333d4
10thCotchin, Trent371725130y200d10

Short, Baker, Lambert former rookies + Grimes PSD.
Click to expand...

No surprise on this year's form to see Martin, Vlastuin, and Bolton up there, but how much has McIntosh improved? Bloody hell.

Great effort by Short.
 
Power Raid said:
The compromised draft started in 2008 with GC being able to select youth talent.



Firsly, I would like to point out all four clubs (lions, cats, hawks and tigers) achievements were amazing. Discussing all:

1) Tigers I felt was the best as their flags were won more by system and coaching more than anything else. Free agency has definitely helped the tigers as the one anomaly that will be adjusted in the near future. The tigers may have recruited well to get Riewolt and dusty, but there is nothing stopping clubs from rebuilding in the last 5 years or so other than timing in their clubs cycle.
2) Lions I ranked second as although they benefited from the Lions merger and salary cap adjustment the players Brisbane gained were Scott Bamford, John Barker, Brad Boyd, Nick Carter, Shane Clayton, Simon Hawking, Chris Johnson and Jarrod Molloy. Meaning the Lions 3-peat was due to the squad they already had, the coach and system rather than the merger itself.
3) The hawks had brilliant coaching and system. Arguably a better skilled side than the cats great side before it and certainly a better balanced side across the park (cats superior midfield and defence but weaker forward line). The hawks received the greatest benefit from the compromised drafts, with clubs unable to rebuild and gained further advantage of mature players wanting to join one of the few clubs vying for a flag.
3b) The cats again great coaching and system but benefited from building a team in the mid 2000s ahead of the compromised drafts. Meaning other clubs couldn't rebuild and challenge. The father son really benefited the cats and like free agency will be, the father son was changed after the cats brilliant run. The dank issue also holds dark clouds over the premierships.
Click to expand...

Your post is interesting and quite insightful but completely overlooks the significant difference between Brisbane and all the others.

I put Brisbane at the top of the tree not just because of the incredible list they had, but also due to their significant disadvantage of "playing away from home" and having to win two of their 3 on their opposition's home ground. The 3rd was obviously a neutral contest.

Hawthorn were a great side but had the significant advantage of winning their 3 on their home ground against interstate competition. I'm not sure of where this puts them but they had some seriously good players during the time.

Richmond have won 2 on their home ground (one against an interstate team) and one at a neutral venue which neither advantaged or disadvantaged either team. They are a good team but do have a big reliance on Dusty who just keeps doing it when it Richmond needs a lift. Not sure how they'd travel without him, just a magnificent footballer.

Brisbane the best for me.... had so many that would step up if someone was having a bad day.

Geelong were an incredibly consistent team during the era but I suspect they underachieved.
 
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Partridge said:
No surprise on this year's form to see Martin, Vlastuin, and Bolton up there, but how much has McIntosh improved? Bloody hell.

Great effort by Short.
Click to expand...
Impressive by short tough year for him lost his dad at the start of the year then the whole covid s**t
 
Partridge said:
No surprise on this year's form to see Martin, Vlastuin, and Bolton up there, but how much has McIntosh improved? Bloody hell.
Click to expand...

It's a surprise, he's had a very solid year without starring. Was told he needed to improve overhead and has pretty much eliminated the Homer Simpson bumbles. Good size, runs all day, strong as an ox, rarely beaten one on one - he's an awkward customer and has limited some good opponents. Sat out the VFL premiership last year to be an emergency for the AFL GF and there was talk of him going to Freo. Stuck around, copped a syndesmosis injury early in the year, rewarded with a second premiership and a Kevin Bartlett Medal (previous best finish of 14th). The man has character.

As one of three players who didn't miss a game, Short was always going to fare well, but to actually win is a bit of a shock. Some thought he should've made the AA squad; I had him down as only our fifth-best defender.

The tally is skewed somewhat by Prestia/Edwards/Houli/Nankervis missing big chunks of the year. We were fortunate these players returned in good enough nick to make important finals contributions; couldn't have won without them.
 
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