Matthew Lloyd's Top 20 players of 2021

[WalshistheGOAT]

Well then, Carlton should’ve just stuck with Teague given a game plan and synergy driven by the coach over months of pre-season is irrelevant to a team’s performance.

When you have 0 players to hide as all of them are guns you don't need much of a game plan. It's like when you get picked for a team at school and one team is absolutely stacked and the other has a few good players. It's an absolute demolition from start to finish and any need for a game plan is thrown out as individually every line of the ground has mismatches winning contests that otherwise would be 50 50s.

 

[danster168]

This is a good reason as to why total clangers alone is a bad way to compare players disposal. Its not a good reason to ignore all statistics.




We are discussing his 2021 so the only relevant statistics are the ones from that year. If I was using those stats to predict his future performance then saying the sample is too small would make sense but I'm not predicting future performance. His good goal kicking accuracy is just 1 of many stats that support my position that his kicking is very good now for a mid with a high contested possession rate.



Parish is equal 1st in the competition for total clearances per game alongside Liberatore and Cunnington and he wins more centre clearances then either of them.



None of Holman, Guthrie, Frost, Castagna or Hunt play predominantly as inside midfielders which makes it completely pointless to compare there disposal efficiency or kicking efficiency with Bontempellis or any of the others in your list. Parish does play as an inside midfielder and has a comparable contested possession rate so the comparison is far more reasonable.

I also didnt use disposal efficiency or kicking efficiency alone precisely because some kicks are more difficult/risky/dangerous then others. This is a good argument against someone like Tom Mitchell who is not damaging with the ball relative to other top midfielders (No offense meant to Mitchell, hes an absolute superstar), the stats back this up, among midfielders he ranks 46th for inside 50s, 27th for metres gained, 51st for goal assists, 49th for score involvements and 38th for score launches despite averaging more disposals then any other player (all averages, midfielders only). Parish for comparison is 5th, 7th, 10th, 3rd and 4th.

This all reflects what I see on gameday, Parish takes high risk/high reward kicks to dangerous areas and often pulls them off resulting in scores. Not to the same extent as Bontempelli, Petracca, Martin or Merrett but certainly comparable to others on your list.



I dont think theres much point in having a discussion like this without providing stats or other evidence to back up my position, I dont think that is reading too much into the stats. The discussion would be pretty quick and uninteresting if noone used stats or votes/awards to back up there position. Something like "I think Parish is good" "I dont" "Lets agree to disagree" isnt what I would call an interesting discussion. I do not get my opinions from a stat sheet, I have my opinions from watching the game and then look at the stats to see if they support it, and a lot of the time they do especially when you look past disposals and get into the finer details.

Well I'll tip my hat to you sir. That was a good reply.

Jack Graham, Darcy Tucker, Davies Uniacke, Willem Drew, ironically Dylan Shiel who is widely known to be a terrible kick, Cam Guthrie, Treloar all have higher disposal efficiencies. Amongst about 20 other inside mids like Tom Mitchell who is a pure inside mid and you regard as having no hurt factor. I would say mitchell has just as much hurt factor as parish. Which is minimal.

I will disagree with you about goal kicking accuracy. 10 goals is too small to even be bothered mentioning it. One of his goals this year he was centre-ing the ball and miskicked it through. That changes 10% of his 'goal kicking efficiency'.

Parish is 3rd, not 1st:

2021 AFL League Clearances Per Game Leaders

2021 AFL League Clearances Per Game Leaders.

www.footywire.com

Also you talk about contested possessions. Parish is 51st in contested possessions RATE which is the % of his possessions that are contested. 51st.

AFL Stats - AFL.com.au

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www.afl.com.au

 

[La Dispute]

Well then, Carlton should’ve just stuck with Teague given a game plan and synergy driven by the coach over months of pre-season is irrelevant to a team’s performance.

Melbourne didn’t lose to Hawthorn by the way either. And when Melbourne did lose to clearly less talented teams in 2021, it was precisely because those teams played well as a team - not because of superior talent player by player.

It’s not that it doesn’t matter, it’s that when you have such a disparity in talent level and breadth of available players a decent system just doesn’t work as well.

You’d have matchups like Bontempelli v Langdon on a wing.

Melbourne are replacing elite mids with C-graders on the bench. Our all-star team is replacing elite mids with other elite mids.

Buddy Franklin’s opponent is Christian Salem. Tom Lynch is on Jake Bowey.

David Mundy can choose from 3 or 4 mismatches every time he wants to put it inside 50.

It’d be a completely demolition, and that’s putting it mildly.

 

[Trav 20]

What is simplistic is expecting a team filled with smaller players to get close to a team full of athletic giants who also happen to be the best players in the league.

They’d destroy the Dees if they had five minutes to gel together.

Maybe you can name this superteam ?

But you can't include the Dees Fab 5 or Salem or Fritsch or Kozi.

 

[Trav 20]

It’s not that it doesn’t matter, it’s that when you have such a disparity in talent level and breadth of available players a decent system just doesn’t work as well.

You’d have matchups like Bontempelli v Langdon on a wing.

Melbourne are replacing elite mids with C-graders on the bench. Our all-star team is replacing elite mids with other elite mids.

Buddy Franklin’s opponent is Christian Salem. Tom Lynch is on Jake Bowey.

David Mundy can choose from 3 or 4 mismatches every time he wants to put it inside 50.

It’d be a completely demolition, and that’s putting it mildly.

Bontempelli on a wing ? I'm not sure if you do football, but Bontempelli wouldn't lineup there on Langdon. If he did he'd need an oxygen mask every trip to the bench.

Buddy ? You are aware he was kept scoreless by May this year for only the 5th time in his career ?

Lynch on Bowey ?

Your suggested matchups are a joke and barely worthy of a response.

 

[Lampers]

When you have 0 players to hide as all of them are guns you don't need much of a game plan. It's like when you get picked for a team at school and one team is absolutely stacked and the other has a few good players. It's an absolute demolition from start to finish and any need for a game plan is thrown out as individually every line of the ground has mismatches winning contests that otherwise would be 50 50s.

This is so wrong.

How do you think a forward line where every player is used to being the main forward would function? The leading patterns would be horrendous, all of them getting in each other’s way. They wouldn’t know what their teammates delivering the ball are likely to do, and similarly the player delivering theball won’t know their forward’s preferences either.

Which of those stars are running to apply pressure for a reward of seven touches for the game?

How would a backline function where half of them are wanting to go for the intercept mark?

AFL is nothing like schoolyard footy where talent will win out, you have made an enormous underestimation on the level of sophistication in game plans and importance of roles. It’s precisely why Melbourne went from middle of the road in 2020 to dominant by the time the finals came around with minimal personnel change - more players stopped doing what they wanted to do and instead did what the team required.

An all-Australian quality team with a few months to train together, and with the motivation to accept lesser roles on the field, would beat a premiership team no doubt. In a one off game with limited preparation I back the premiership team every time, and I’d back most AFL teams to win in a one off against an unprepared all-Australian quality team.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Bontempelli on a wing ? I'm not sure if you do football, but Bontempelli wouldn't lineup there on Langdon. If he did he'd need an oxygen mask every trip to the bench.

Buddy ? You are aware he was kept scoreless by May this year for only the 5th time in his career ?

Lynch on Bowey ?

Your suggested matchups are a joke and barely worthy of a response.

But look at the best mids in the comp outside of Dees.

You'd have Walsh on a wing rotating inside with Miller on the other

Picking from Macrae, Bont, Steele, Wines, Mitchell, Parish, Merrett as midfielders against Petracca, Oliver (good) and players like Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes.

And others like Dusty who'd rotate from a half forward flank.

And that's just the start of it.

It's like that all over the ground.

Only place where it wouldn't is maybe the ruck but even then you could have two rucks and double team gawn and Jackson wouldn't get close.

 

[Trav 20]

But look at the best mids in the comp outside of Dees.

You'd have Walsh on a wing rotating inside with Miller on the other

Picking from Macrae, Bont, Steele, Wines, Mitchell, Parish, Merrett as midfielders against Petracca, Oliver (good) and players like Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes.

And others like Dusty who'd rotate from a half forward flank.

And that's just the start of it.

It's like that all over the ground.

Only place where it wouldn't is maybe the ruck but even then you could have two rucks and double team gawn and Jackson wouldn't get close.

Sure. Did you see the post I was responding to ?

Btw, Hibberd has a fantastic record on Martin. Go on to finalsiren.com and check out his record against opposing teams and come back to me.

Clearly, a superteam will be far stronger on paper. But there are arguments to counter why it's not as simple as that. Have you read them ?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

In a one off game with limited preparation I back the premiership team every time, and I’d back most AFL teams to win in a one off against an unprepared all-Australian quality team.

I wouldn’t.

Two things you need to consider.
1: You’re not dealing with Joe Average plebs in the AA team, so they’re going to pick up structures and plans quickly. The AA coach is also going to have a lot more weapons at his disposal. They’re also going to find it easier to cover for any gap in connection, with the level of talent in the side. Imagine being able to play Martin one out in the square with Franklin and McKay roaming 45m out?
Sorry Dees, but you’re going to get stretched.

2: The premiership has a bottom 6 that will most likely be well and truly covered by the AA team, and this is where the game would really take shape.

 

[La Dispute]

Maybe you can name this superteam ?

But you can't include the Dees Fab 5 or Salem or Fritsch or Kozi.

Soft players don't get a game as it is - Salem's omission goes without saying.

Not a bad idea really, lets see how the Dees GF line up stacks up.

FB: Michael Hibberd Steven May Jake Lever
FF: Patrick Dangerfield Tom Hawkins Harry McKay

HB: Trent Rivers Harrison Petty Christian Salem
HF: Toby Greene Tom Lynch Buddy Franklin

C: Angus Brayshaw Christian Petracca Ed Langdon
C: Sam Walsh Dustin Martin Marcus Bontempelli

HF: Alex Neal-Bullen Tom McDonald Tom Sparrow
HB: Tom Stewart Harris Andrews Daniel Rich

FF: Charlie Spargo Ben Brown Bayley Fritsch
FB: Luke Ryan Darcy Moore Nick Haynes

RR: Max Gawn Clayton Oliver Jack Viney
RR: Nic Natanui Jack Steele Lachie Neale

INT: James Harmes Jake Bowey Luke Jackson Kosi Pickett
INT: Jack Macrae Charlie Cameron Sean Darcy Zach Merrett

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Sure. Did you see the post I was responding to ?

Btw, Hibberd has a fantastic record on Martin. Go on to finalsiren.com and check out his record against opposing teams and come back to me.

Clearly, a superteam will be far stronger on paper. But there are arguments to counter why it's not as simple as that. Have you read them ?

It's simple, they will have too much firepower for your 2nd and 3rd tier players, hey it could be okay for 5 minutes with Clarry/Petracca in the guts. And yes that man's comparisons were terrible.

 

[Lampers]

It’s not that it doesn’t matter, it’s that when you have such a disparity in talent level and breadth of available players a decent system just doesn’t work as well.

You’d have matchups like Bontempelli v Langdon on a wing.

Melbourne are replacing elite mids with C-graders on the bench. Our all-star team is replacing elite mids with other elite mids.

Buddy Franklin’s opponent is Christian Salem. Tom Lynch is on Jake Bowey.

David Mundy can choose from 3 or 4 mismatches every time he wants to put it inside 50.

It’d be a completely demolition, and that’s putting it mildly.

What I love about this thread is it really exposes those who have a simplistic understanding of AFL level football.

This is not a “Melbourne are premiers, so they beat everyone” thing. I‘d back in all of 2021’s finalists to beat an unprepared All-Australian quality team, and I wouldn’t be shocked if every AFL team would beat the unprepared super team in a one off.

As per Trav 20’a post, it’s not even worth going deeper into the flawed rationale, the education journey is just too long.

 

[La Dispute]

Bontempelli on a wing ? I'm not sure if you do football, but Bontempelli wouldn't lineup there on Langdon. If he did he'd need an oxygen mask every trip to the bench.

Buddy ? You are aware he was kept scoreless by May this year for only the 5th time in his career ?

Lynch on Bowey ?

Your suggested matchups are a joke and barely worthy of a response.

You realise this All-Star can stack their team in whatever fashion they'd like? If there are mismatches that's pretty much far for the course when you're selecting a team from 95% of the available talent.

So you reckon May goes to Buddy and Salem goes to McKay?

Give us your set of matchups in my above team - it's not going to look great for the Dees however you piece it together.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Soft players don't get a game as it is - Salem's omission goes without saying.

Not a bad idea really, lets see how the Dees GF line up stacks up.

FB: Michael Hibberd Steven May Jake Lever
FF: Patrick Dangerfield Tom Hawkins Harry McKay

HB: Trent Rivers Harrison Petty Christian Salem
HF: Toby Greene Tom Lynch Buddy Franklin

C: Angus Brayshaw Christian Petracca Ed Langdon
C: Sam Walsh Dustin Martin Marcus Bontempelli

HF: Alex Neal-Bullen Tom McDonald Tom Sparrow
HB: Tom Stewart Harris Andrews Daniel Rich

FF: Charlie Spargo Ben Brown Bayley Fritsch
FB: Luke Ryan Darcy Moore Nick Haynes

RR: Max Gawn Clayton Oliver Jack Viney
RR: Nic Natanui Jack Steele Lachie Neale

INT: James Harmes Jake Bowey Luke Jackson Kosi Pickett
INT: Jack Macrae Charlie Cameron Sean Darcy Zach Merrett

Not even the team i'd have for AA and they'd still win.


FB: Michael Hibberd Steven May Jake Lever
FF: Dustin Martin Tom Hawkins Harry McKay

HB: Trent Rivers Harrison Petty Christian Salem
HF: Toby Greene Buddy Franklin Charlie Cameron

C: Angus Brayshaw Christian Petracca Ed Langdon
C: Sam Walsh Marcus Bontempelli Touk Miller

HF: Alex Neal-Bullen Tom McDonald Tom Sparrow
HB: Caleb Daniel Harris Andrews Daniel Rich

FF: Charlie Spargo Ben Brown Bayley Fritsch
FB: James Sicily Jacob Weitering Tom Stewart

RR: Max Gawn Clayton Oliver Jack Viney
RR: Nic Natanui Jack Steele Tom Mitchell

INT: James Harmes Jake Bowey Luke Jackson Kosi Pickett
INT: Jack Macrae Zach Merrett Sean Darcy Bailey Dale

Had to add in Sicily for bias reasons xx

 

[La Dispute]

What I love about this thread is it really exposes those who have a simplistic understanding of AFL level football.

This is not a “Melbourne are premiers, so they beat everyone” thing. I‘d back in all of 2021’s finalists to beat an unprepared All-Australian quality team, and I wouldn’t be shocked if every AFL team would beat the unprepared super team in a one off.

As per Trav 20’a post, it’s not even worth going deeper into the flawed rationale, the education journey is just too long.

Now you're just being silly.

Melbourne have approx 5% of the available in the league, maybe more given they have drafted well and put together a list. Let's say 10%. So now 90% of the rest of the available and allocated talent, including the vast majority of the very best in the league are sitting together in one lineup. There's no limits on the players selected, they can win games in whatever fashion is convenient including using their superior height to create constant mismatches around the ground.

Then up forward you've got a series of bigger, more athletic players to which some players are towering 20 cm+ over their opponents. Otherwise you've got inexperience battlers like Rivers trying to get head-to-head with Greene.

The Dees also lost to a number of rebuilding sides throughout the year. They are clearly fallible and susceptible to teams who just want to attack, which is theoretically what our All-star team would do. Create constant mismatches, move the ball on quickly - which isn't hard to do when you're fielding the best of the best, and most are ridiculously skilled.

Sadly Melbourne wouldn't get within 10 goals - at a conservative estimate.

 

[Lampers]

Fascinating that it’s the same posters who rail against any suggestion their team is a chance for the spoon in 2022, who also seem to think modern AFL football is a series on one-on-one contests where the most talented player wins…

 

[Lampers]

Now you're just being silly.

Melbourne have approx 5% of the available in the league, maybe more given they have drafted well and put together a list. Let's say 10%. So now 90% of the rest of the available and allocated talent, including the vast majority of the very best in the league are sitting together in one lineup. There's no limits on the players selected, they can win games in whatever fashion is convenient including using their superior height to create constant mismatches around the ground.

Then up forward you've got a series of bigger, more athletic players to which some players are towering 20 cm+ over their opponents. Otherwise you've got inexperience battlers like Rivers trying to get head-to-head with Greene.

The Dees also lost to a number of rebuilding sides throughout the year. They are clearly fallible and susceptible to teams who just want to attack, which is theoretically what our All-star team would do. Create constant mismatches, move the ball on quickly - which isn't hard to do when you're fielding the best of the best, and most are ridiculously skilled.

Sadly Melbourne wouldn't get within 10 goals - at a conservative estimate.

Try reading the post before responding.

I said almost any well drilled team with synergy would beat the unprepared All-Australian team.

Again, a simpleton’s analysis.

 

[Trav 20]

Soft players don't get a game as it is - Salem's omission goes without saying.

Not a bad idea really, lets see how the Dees GF line up stacks up.

FB: Michael Hibberd Steven May Jake Lever
FF: Patrick Dangerfield Tom Hawkins Harry McKay

HB: Trent Rivers Harrison Petty Christian Salem
HF: Toby Greene Tom Lynch Buddy Franklin

C: Angus Brayshaw Christian Petracca Ed Langdon
C: Sam Walsh Dustin Martin Marcus Bontempelli

HF: Alex Neal-Bullen Tom McDonald Tom Sparrow
HB: Tom Stewart Harris Andrews Daniel Rich

FF: Charlie Spargo Ben Brown Bayley Fritsch
FB: Luke Ryan Darcy Moore Nick Haynes

RR: Max Gawn Clayton Oliver Jack Viney
RR: Nic Natanui Jack Steele Lachie Neale

INT: James Harmes Jake Bowey Luke Jackson Kosi Pickett
INT: Jack Macrae Charlie Cameron Sean Darcy Zach Merrett

Not only can't you do matchups but you're suggestion that Salem is ''soft'' renders you a clueless joke. How can someone watch football for so long and not get better at it.

Some comments from Gawn re Salem in his just released book.

''The phrase white line fever gets thrown around often, but one player it certainly applies to is Christian Salem. The moment he crosses the white line he has this aggression at the contest that is unwavering. His contest work is almost better than his left foot. His ability to crack in when it's his turn to go is what always stands out for me.''

 

[La Dispute]

Fascinating that it’s the same posters who rail against any suggestion their team is a chance for the spoon in 2022, who also seem to think modern AFL football is a series on one-on-one contests where the most talented player wins…

You need to look at the bigger picture.

This is a one-off exhibition match of which the talent is skewed significantly towards one team, there's no salary cap, no barriers to the type of game you can play and the type of team you select.

Clubs don't attempt to play one-on-one football because they don't have the option of playing 4 elite key forwards including sitting Buddy Franklin on a flank. This would be a very different set of circumstances.

 

[adonski]

Please no more talk of Tom Scully

21

Tom Scully

Age

32

Ht

181cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.7

5star

K

9.9

4star

HB

10.8

5star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.5

5star

CL

2.3

4star

D

12.6

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.1

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.1

2star

CL

0.8

3star

D

19.8

5star

K

8.8

4star

HB

11.0

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

4.6

5star

CL

3.8

5star

clone, Sam Walsh

18

Sam Walsh

Age

23

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.1

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

5.1

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

3.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.2

5star

K

15.4

5star

HB

10.8

5star

M

6.0

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

4.8

5star

 

[La Dispute]

Try reading the post before responding.

I said almost any well drilled team with synergy would beat the unprepared All-Australian team.

Again, a simpleton’s analysis.

You keep missing the point - we're not applying a current understanding of how teams line up against each other, we're applying a very specific set of circumstances that have never (to my knowledge) occurred.

 

[La Dispute]

Not only can't you do matchups but you're suggestion that Salem is ''soft'' renders you a clueless joke. How can someone watch football for so long and not get better at it.

Some comments from Gawn re Salem in his just released book.

''The phrase white line fever gets thrown around often, but one player it certainly applies to is Christian Salem. The moment he crosses the white line he has this aggression at the contest that is unwavering. His contest work is almost better than his left foot. His ability to crack in when it's his turn to go is what always stands out for me.''

Melbourne player rates Melbourne player.

Yawn.

 

[Tylerbombers]

Jack Graham, Darcy Tucker, Davies Uniacke, Willem Drew, ironically Dylan Shiel who is widely known to be a terrible kick, Cam Guthrie, Treloar all have higher disposal efficiencies.

I dont know why your bringing this up when you agree that there is more to a players disposal then kicking efficiency. Regardless you keep quoting disposal efficiency but the conversation is about kicking and Parish has a kicking efficiency of 62.2% which is better then Drew, Shiel and Treloar.
Drew 58.8%
Shiel 56.8%
Treloar 57.5%

Parish has a contested possession rate of 43.3% and averages 7.6 clearances a game. Graham and Tucker clearly play a much more outside role so there higher kicking efficiency is expected.
Graham 30.5% 1.8
Tucker 22.5% 0.8

LDU and Guthrie both have higher kicking efficiency but win less contested ball, metres gained, goal assists, score involvements, score launches and clearances. These are your relatively risk averse players like Mitchell. There also very good players.

Tom Mitchell who is a pure inside mid and you regard as having no hurt factor. I would say mitchell has just as much hurt factor as parish. Which is minimal.

I wouldnt say no hurt factor, Mitchells an awesome player and I probably rate him higher then most but the stats clearly support my view that he is far less damaging then Parish.

I will disagree with you about goal kicking accuracy. 10 goals is too small to even be bothered mentioning it. One of his goals this year he was centre-ing the ball and miskicked it through. That changes 10% of his 'goal kicking efficiency'.

Thats fine, it was just 1 of many examples of good kicking and its not as if none of the other players ever fluked a goal. Also even if you take 10% of his goal kicking accuracy hes still ahead of Petracca, Oliver, Macrae, Wines, Miller and Merrett.

Parish is 3rd, not 1st:

AFL website has Parish, Libba and Cunnington on 7.6 clearances a game, ill use the AFLs official stats whenever possible.

Also you talk about contested possessions. Parish is 51st in contested possessions RATE which is the % of his possessions that are contested. 51st.

Yes and Martins 60th, Bontempelli 81st, Macrae 91st, Miller 94th, Walsh 99th, Mitchell 122nd and Merrett 169th.

Parish is equal 11th for the much more relevant contested possessions a game. 5th from your top 10 list.

 

[Trav 20]

It's simple, they will have too much firepower for your 2nd and 3rd tier players, hey it could be okay for 5 minutes with Clarry/Petracca in the guts. And yes that man's comparisons were terrible.

Forget Melbourne per se. One could mount an argument about other premiership sides.

It's just a discussion point and this year's premiers are largely irrelevant to the concept that a team thrown together, even stars, against a well-drilled team would find it challenging.

 

[Trav 20]

Melbourne player rates Melbourne player.

Yawn.

He directly contradicts your stupid analogy.

In no other part of the book does he reference a player and white line fever.

You're ignore worthy unfortunately.