Matthew Lloyd's Top 20 players of 2021

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Partridge

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I'd be happy to chuck either Oliver or Petracca at 1.

Petracca had a great season, capped off with the Normie and would have been a worthy nomination.

Yeah I'd go for Petracca. Nothing wrong with having Oliver though, and nice feeling to have both in your centre square.

I like Lloyd. Isn't scared to leave out name players who in reality are nowhere near as good as they were.
 

WilloTree

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Are there any stats that show Langdon to be the best wing in the comp? He is miles behind close to half a dozen wingman. Seedsman, Whitfield Mcclug, Amon, Lukosious, Smith, J Kelly (he's split 50 50 inside out though)

All of these players get more of the ball, use it better, are better kicks and hit the scoreboard more often. I don't see any way Dee's fans can argue this one and just goes to show how delusional their opinion is on their prospects vs the AA 22 if they think Langdon is even close to the same class as these guys
I'd probably take Mcclug and Whitfield if I was starting a team from scratch, but I'd certainly have Langdon in the conversation.

Langdon has been a very good wingman for 4-5 years. His stats are marginally worse now he's at Melbourne (statistically his best year was his last at Freo), but somehow the recognition is through the roof.

If anyone ever wanted to know how the 'if he played for a Melbourne team, he'd be a superstar' concept works...Langdon is exhibit A
 

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Lampers

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I'd probably take Mcclug and Whitfield if I was starting a team from scratch, but I'd certainly have Langdon in the conversation.

Langdon has been a very good wingman for 4-5 years. His stats are marginally worse now he's at Melbourne (statistically his best year was his last at Freo), but somehow the recognition is through the roof.

If anyone ever wanted to know how the 'if he played for a Melbourne team, he'd be a superstar' concept works...Langdon is exhibit A

I don’t think anyone except hyperbolic Melbourne supporters think Ed Langdon is a superstar.

If he’d maintained his pre concusion form he would’ve been very close to AA as he was averaging 24 touches and a goal per game - but he didn’t maintain that rate after his injury and had a quiet patch the back half of the H&A season.

Langdon‘s endurance on the wing opposite to the interchange bench is a tactical advantage. Aside from the game he was injured and subbed out, the least amount of time he spent on the ground was 89% and he had three games where he hit 100% time on ground. That, along with guys like Lever, May and Petty playing near 100%, allows other players to have more rest and therefore be more effective when on the ground.

Langdon’s kicking has improved from 2020, but it still lacks penetration and for that reason I’d take other wingers ahead of him. He generates goals through hard work, not skilful execution.

But back to your main point, I do agree a Victorian player of equal output to a non-Victorian based player is likely to get more acknowledgement by the main media as the big media bodies for AFL are also Victoria based.
 

Toump Ass

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It would also help Ed plays for a really strong team now.

Not much point sprinting from end to end if your teammates just turn the ball over anyway.
OTOH there were a few times I saw Ed kick a goal after he'd run flat out from the opposition goal-line. That's very "eye-catching" IMO, lovely to watch.
 

markm106

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It would also help Ed plays for a really strong team now.

Not much point sprinting from end to end if your teammates just turn the ball over anyway.
OTOH there were a few times I saw Ed kick a goal after he'd run flat out from the opposition goal-line. That's very "eye-catching" IMO, lovely to watch.
Yeah they was great to watch. The goal in the last quarter of the grand final showed the workrate. I don’t think we’ve ever had a winger like him. He does it every week and is often unrewarded. He has also worked on his kicking and is a nice kick now to. I reckon he was AA until the concussion. Tailed off a bit after that.
 

Trav 20

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Langdon has been a very good wingman for 4-5 years. His stats are marginally worse now he's at Melbourne (statistically his best year was his last at Freo), but somehow the recognition is through the roof.

If anyone ever wanted to know how the 'if he played for a Melbourne team, he'd be a superstar' concept works...Langdon is exhibit A
Langdon and Brayshaw play very defensive wing roles.

He can free rein as long as he helps the defence.

I think it's hard to judge him against his Freo days as his Melbourne role may curtail some of his opportunity disposals wise.
 

danster168

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Are there any stats that show Langdon to be the best wing in the comp? He is miles behind close to half a dozen wingman. Seedsman, Whitfield Mcclug, Amon, Lukosious, Smith, J Kelly (he's split 50 50 inside out though)

All of these players get more of the ball, use it better, are better kicks and hit the scoreboard more often. I don't see any way Dee's fans can argue this one and just goes to show how delusional their opinion is on their prospects vs the AA 22 if they think Langdon is even close to the same class as these guys

You just said they hit the scoreboard more often. Langdon kicked more goals than Whitfield, Lukosius and Amon. You clearly don't watch many dees games. Get your facts correct before you make incorrect statements. Apologise for this horrendous oversight.
 

Tylerbombers

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Picture this, it's grand final day, you're down by 3 points with 30 seconds to go, the ball shoots out to one of the above players who do you go with? You're gonna say Parish because of his higher goal kicking accuracy? LOL. Please, spare me the stats. Parish would be last in this list. Petracca is clutch on the big stage, Merrett is a far better kick, then I'd back Touk Miller, then Macrae who has been a match winner all through his career including under 18's and then Oliver who has now improved his kicking so much and is probably the best player in the game. He also has big game credits in the bank. Parish comes last. Maybe equal last with Wines at best.

I never said I think Parish is a better kick for goal then any of the other players. His goal kicking accuracy was only relevant as evidence supporting that his kicking was good last year. In 2021 Parish was a more accurate kick for goal then some of those players, that does not mean he would be a better kick for goal in round 1 next year or in a hypothetical grand final clutch moment but we arent talking about who will be the best kick for goal next year we are talking about who was a top 10 midfielder in 2021. Its interesting that your focusing in on probably the least significant stat that I mentioned and ignoring everything else.
 

danster168

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Dee's fans honestly arguing they'd take down this team because they wouldn't know how to gel? 3/4 these players could walk into any team on any given day and be close to best on no matter the game plan. It's like you believe they don't have brains to understand chop out rotations and leading in the f50...??? Most of their footy IQ's off the charts and its their ability to play with anyone and change their roles depending on match ups which makes them great.

Aliir Weitering Dale
Spargo Brown Fritsch
Rich Andrews Stewart
Neal-Bul Mcdonald Sparrow

Merrett Bont Walsh
Brayshaw Petracca Langdon
Nic Nat Wines Steele
Gawn Oliver Viney

Dusty Hawkins Cameron
Rivers Petty Salem
Greene Mckay Franklin
Hibberd May Lever


Darcy Touk Macrae Parish
Jackson Harmes Bowey Pickett


Defense - Aliir has no match up capable of manning him so as seen throughout the season he'd roam free and gobble up every poor entry for fun. Weitering and Brown would go the way of Weitering but lets say they break even. Dale v Fritsch would be interesting match up and id go the way of Fritsch, but given his playstyle Dale would be able to rebound as he pleases. Rich And Stewart would absolutely carve Neal Bullen and Sparrow to pieces, would be like Luke Hodge vs Sam Kerridge. Andrews v Mcdonald same as Weitering v Brown, Andrews realistically would destroy him but can say they break even again


Midfield - Merrett and Walsh are better runners, better kicks, better decision makers and better goal kickers than Langdon and Brayshaw. Oliver Trac and Gawn will fair well and may even break even for 1/2 a quarter but as soon as rotations happen its Parish Touk and Macrae vs Harmes Sparrow and ?? Would be a complete slaughter as soon as Oliver and Trac rotated to the bench or fwd.


Forwards
- Dusty on Rivers... Salem defending Cameron... Hibberd on Greene... If Lever leaves Buddy to roam free and intercept instead
hed kick 15. That would leave Hawkins Buddy or Mckay being manned up by Salem or Bowey if Lever is going to play loose? Mckay was also a handful for May even while clutching his injured shoulder throughout

Bench - Demolition job is an understatement if these blokes ever lined up on each other for more than 5 minutes.



Overall this would just be an absolute slaughter from beginning to end, they are fitter, more athletic and more skilled than most AFL players which is why they are AA. A game plan is generally based around the players who lack certain skills or attributes and blending them into a system so their weaknesses are covered and the good players are supported.

When all the players are good theres no need to hide anyone, simply to spread the load and do the regular team lifting things all of these players are known for. Theres also still plenty of players who would apply great defensive pressure such as Touk Macrae Walsh Steele Cameron and Greene, they just have all the weapons to go with it instead of being limited players.

Once again, you've failed to acknowledge forward pressure. You say who is going to man Dusty, Cameron, Buddy , Toby Greene etc. Tell me which one of these forwards is going to lock the ball into the forward 50 with their pressure? None of them.Who is the quickest guy in that forward line? They're all bloody slow.

Also, Merrett wouldn't be a better wingman than Brayshaw and Langdon. He doesn't even play wing. Brayshaw and Langdon have played a whole season there mastering their craft. So no, you're incorrect.

Also, you say Gawn, Oliver and Petracca will fair well. That's disrespectful and you've conveniently not mention that Gawn is much better than Naitanui and Oliver and Petracca are better than the next 2 best midfielders. Also, Luke Jackson has mastered the 2nd ruck role all season and you expect Darcy to come in and know what to do. Nah. You're not giving any credit to guys that master their role. You get sucked into the household names. Darcy Parish was a no name 1 year ago. Now his role has changed and he is a good player. If you put parish out of his position he would be terrible once again. That's how important role is. If Brayshaw played full time inside midfielder like Parish, he would get just as good numbers.

Then you say Dale would be able to do as a he pleases on Fritsch. LOL. you realise Fritsch kicked 6 on the dogs in the GF and no-one could stop him. Let alone Bailey fricken Dale. lol
 

nineteen eighty

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Genuine question: would any neutrals here take Jake Lever over Tom Stewart?

Excellent question. Worthy of its own thread. Without going into detail, I'll go Stewart. Having said that, one could argue Lever is the most important player to Melbourne's structure. Little between them.

And for mine, if Langdon is the best wingman in the comp then I know little about the game after playing and watching it for over 50 years. Langdon is important to the teams structure with his 2 way running. That doesn't make him the best wingman in the comp. And to think a lot of you blokes thought Tiger supporters went over the top after '17?!
 
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WalshistheGOAT

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It would also help Ed plays for a really strong team now.

Not much point sprinting from end to end if your teammates just turn the ball over anyway.
OTOH there were a few times I saw Ed kick a goal after he'd run flat out from the opposition goal-line. That's very "eye-catching" IMO, lovely to watch.
I love watching Eds gut running as you can actually see him create separation from his man such as Bailey Smith in the grand final and be the direct link that causes a goal through pure determination. That being said I'm still taking half a dozen wingman before him if given free choice... but Id love an Ed Landgon on the blues he brings great value to a team
 

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WalshistheGOAT

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You just said they hit the scoreboard more often. Langdon kicked more goals than Whitfield, Lukosius and Amon. You clearly don't watch many dees games. Get your facts correct before you make incorrect statements. Apologise for this horrendous oversight.
I apologise it was lost in translation, I meant hit the scoreboard - including score involvements, score launches etc as wingman aren't generally known for their big bags of goals.
 

WalshistheGOAT

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Once again, you've failed to acknowledge forward pressure. You say who is going to man Dusty, Cameron, Buddy , Toby Greene etc. Tell me which one of these forwards is going to lock the ball into the forward 50 with their pressure? None of them.Who is the quickest guy in that forward line? They're all bloody slow.

Also, Merrett wouldn't be a better wingman than Brayshaw and Langdon. He doesn't even play wing. Brayshaw and Langdon have played a whole season there mastering their craft. So no, you're incorrect.

Also, you say Gawn, Oliver and Petracca will fair well. That's disrespectful and you've conveniently not mention that Gawn is much better than Naitanui and Oliver and Petracca are better than the next 2 best midfielders. Also, Luke Jackson has mastered the 2nd ruck role all season and you expect Darcy to come in and know what to do. Nah. You're not giving any credit to guys that master their role. You get sucked into the household names. Darcy Parish was a no name 1 year ago. Now his role has changed and he is a good player. If you put parish out of his position he would be terrible once again. That's how important role is. If Brayshaw played full time inside midfielder like Parish, he would get just as good numbers.

Then you say Dale would be able to do as a he pleases on Fritsch. LOL. you realise Fritsch kicked 6 on the dogs in the GF and no-one could stop him. Let alone Bailey fricken Dale. lol
Charlie Cameron and Toby Greene apply fine pressure as do Dusty and the other mids that would be rotating up forward as nearly all of them are mercurial types, but for your sake okay fine swap a mid on the bench for Papley and problem solved.

Merrett was an AA wingman this year and has in the past and this year played plenty of time on the wing and been exceptional. His footskills are some of the best league wide and he runs all day.

Gawn may be better and Oliver and Trac may be able to get the best of the team for a given time but once again even if they did as soon as they rotate it becomes a blood bath. I already mentioned Steele, one of the best taggers turned mid in the comp known for his ability to stop the real big bodies in the middle and for the sake of a game he would be perfectly capable of putting the clamps on Oliver while another 3 superstars go to work. Darcy vs Jackson don't make me laugh. Darcy actually was quite awesome for Freo in the 2nd half of the year for his ability to push forward when he was having a chop out. Parish playing out of his position has what to do with anything? He's in the team as a mid so why would you expect him to play as if he's still a half forward like years prior?

Fritsch vs Dale uve completely overlooked the bit where I said I'd go the way of Fritsch - because Dale isn't the best defender. With that, Fritsch isn't a great defender either and Dale is one of the best rebounders in the comp, Fritsch wouldnt be keeping close tabs on him as it's not his game so he'd be running a muck just like he did all year moving the ball around with his lethal boot. If not Dale then Rich or Stewart would be more than capable in that match up.
 

danster168

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I apologise it was lost in translation, I meant hit the scoreboard - including score involvements, score launches etc as wingman aren't generally known for their big bags of goals.

Well I just quickly looked and Langdon also has more score launches than every one of those wingman bar Mccluggage. So it seems like you've made all of this up out of thing air...

That's 2 things now. Goals and Score launches.

I'll await for your apology again.
 

WalshistheGOAT

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Well I just quickly looked and Langdon also has more score launches than every one of those wingman bar Mccluggage. So it seems like you've made all of this up out of thing air...

That's 2 things now. Goals and Score launches.

I'll await for your apology again.
And he's still behind every single on of them for score involvements hence he impacts the scoreboard less than the others, that's why i said score involvements, launches etc... overall he has less impact.

But back to the point are there any stats that suggest Ed Langdon is the best wingman in the comp as u suggested or are you just making things up out of thin air? I can't see a single wingman I named that Langdon beats out when u compare them
 

danster168

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Charlie Cameron and Toby Greene apply fine pressure as do Dusty and the other mids that would be rotating up forward as nearly all of them are mercurial types, but for your sake okay fine swap a mid on the bench for Papley and problem solved.

Merrett was an AA wingman this year and has in the past and this year played plenty of time on the wing and been exceptional. His footskills are some of the best league wide and he runs all day.

Gawn may be better and Oliver and Trac may be able to get the best of the team for a given time but once again even if they did as soon as they rotate it becomes a blood bath. I already mentioned Steele, one of the best taggers turned mid in the comp known for his ability to stop the real big bodies in the middle and for the sake of a game he would be perfectly capable of putting the clamps on Oliver while another 3 superstars go to work. Darcy vs Jackson don't make me laugh. Darcy actually was quite awesome for Freo in the 2nd half of the year for his ability to push forward when he was having a chop out. Parish playing out of his position has what to do with anything? He's in the team as a mid so why would you expect him to play as if he's still a half forward like years prior?

Fritsch vs Dale uve completely overlooked the bit where I said I'd go the way of Fritsch - because Dale isn't the best defender. With that, Fritsch isn't a great defender either and Dale is one of the best rebounders in the comp, Fritsch wouldnt be keeping close tabs on him as it's not his game so he'd be running a muck just like he did all year moving the ball around with his lethal boot. If not Dale then Rich or Stewart would be more than capable in that match up.

Fritsch would kick 8 on Dale. He's too small. Fritsch is too good in the air. If the dogs coaching thought like you they would've put Dale on Fritsch in the GF. But they didn't. Gawn 'may' be better? He is better. Don't minimise this. He is the AA ruck and captain.

I'm not saying that these guys wouldn't beat us but they'd need a month or so of training together. If they came in raw, we'd beat them because they'd have no chemistry. The mids wouldn't have any practice roving to Naitanuior know his hit spots.

Also, that defence you listed isn't very good. Harris got killed by us in the finals. Rich played well but he made no difference to the overall smashing that they got.

You don't think Weideman and Harris would both fly up in the air for ball? I think they would if they played a game raw.
 

WalshistheGOAT

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Fritsch would kick 8 on Dale. He's too small. Fritsch is too good in the air. If the dogs coaching thought like you they would've put Dale on Fritsch in the GF. But they didn't. Gawn 'may' be better? He is better. Don't minimise this. He is the AA ruck and captain.

I'm not saying that these guys wouldn't beat us but they'd need a month or so of training together. If they came in raw, we'd beat them because they'd have no chemistry. The mids wouldn't have any practice roving to Naitanuior know his hit spots.

Also, that defence you listed isn't very good. Harris got killed by us in the finals. Rich played well but he made no difference to the overall smashing that they got.

You don't think Weideman and Harris would both fly up in the air for ball? I think they would if they played a game raw.
If Fritsch is gonna kick 8 on All Australian Bailey Dale what the hell is Toby Greene going to kick on Jake Bowey?

Simple fix for the AA team - send Stewart to Fritsch and its problem solved as he's better in the air than just about any other player for his size.

There's no end to the amount of match ups the AA team could make work as every player moving is A grade. Dale getting exposed defensively? Easy move another A grade player who's better at defending to Dale's match up. The Dee's on the other hand have their A graders and then will be forced to move around B and C grade players to try to quell the influence of players getting the best of them. That's why they'd get exposed.
 

danster168

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If Fritsch is gonna kick 8 on All Australian Bailey Dale what the hell is Toby Greene going to kick on Jake Bowey?

Simple fix for the AA team - send Stewart to Fritsch and its problem solved as he's better in the air than just about any other player for his size.

There's no end to the amount of match ups the AA team could make work as every player moving is A grade. Dale getting exposed defensively? Easy move another A grade player who's better at defending to Dale's match up. The Dee's on the other hand have their A graders and then will be forced to move around B and C grade players to try to quell the influence of players getting the best of them. That's why they'd get exposed.

Melbourne don't play 1 on 1 football mate. it's team defence. he'd just body him up and wait for Lever to fly over the top. Plus I'd back Hibberd to do a role anyway.
 

WalshistheGOAT

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Melbourne don't play 1 on 1 football mate. it's team defence. he'd just body him up and wait for Lever to fly over the top. Plus I'd back Hibberd to do a role anyway.
In that case Lever leaves one of the talls free or Bowey covers them. Either way it's a free goal.

Team defence only works though because there aren't enough players with the talent to be viable options inside 50. When all 6 require tight manning because all of them are ridiculously good ur zone defence simply becomes a pick your poison system. If someone leaves there man to aid, the kicker can simply kick it to the free man or the one with the biggest mismatch.

Some silly teams such as Carlton under Teague thought you could still play this way but it would only ever work when every player is AA quality... if you were targeting Matt Owies every entry he could be manned up by any loose mid or flanker that's pushed back. On the other hand if you have Jack Viney pushing back to Toby Greene he is going to get creamed.


Team defence is a vital part of modern football so don't try to imply I think its irrelevant. It's just when every player can rip a team to pieces that system no longer works. This can be seen in the NBA and NFL with superteams. Players who require double coverage can either be left with single coverage and generally dominate or you can double up and hope that the loose doesn't destroy you too much.

Simple fact is at some point Jake Bowey is matching up on Dusty and he's kicking 5+
 

danster168

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In that case Lever leaves one of the talls free or Bowey covers them. Either way it's a free goal.

Team defence only works though because there aren't enough players with the talent to be viable options inside 50. When all 6 require tight manning because all of them are ridiculously good ur zone defence simply becomes a pick your poison system. If someone leaves there man to aid, the kicker can simply kick it to the free man or the one with the biggest mismatch.

Some silly teams such as Carlton under Teague thought you could still play this way but it would only ever work when every player is AA quality... if you were targeting Matt Owies every entry he could be manned up by any loose mid or flanker that's pushed back. On the other hand if you have Jack Viney pushing back to Toby Greene he is going to get creamed.


Team defence is a vital part of modern football so don't try to imply I think its irrelevant. It's just when every player can rip a team to pieces that system no longer works. This can be seen in the NBA and NFL with superteams. Players who require double coverage can either be left with single coverage and generally dominate or you can double up and hope that the loose doesn't destroy you too much.

Simple fact is at some point Jake Bowey is matching up on Dusty and he's kicking 5+

Huh? Did you not just see Lever record the most intercept marks in the history of AFL? He takes the mark and then we have the ball. None of this free goal nonsense. Like wtf.

You realise the player doesn't leave their man until the ball has been kicked already or at the very least isn't going to their direct opponent? You realise that's what 3rd man up is yeah? You realise that's how lever feasts on intercept possessions? So the ball is going long to Bowey and his opponent and at this point Lever leaves his opponent and grabs the intercept marker fists it out of bounds.

You're putting wayyyy too much weight into the superstar players of the league. far too much. You don't know how good Melbourne's youngsters are going to be. Bowey could be an AA defender in 2 years time. Jackson could be the best ruckman of the next 15 years. Sparrow isn't an AA calibre player but his kicking for goal is straighter than anyone in the AA team. And you're not taking into account that the AA team wouldn't jell well. They wouldn't have a clue of the leading patterns of their forwards. Zilch.
 

NorthcoteDee

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In that case Lever leaves one of the talls free or Bowey covers them. Either way it's a free goal.

Team defence only works though because there aren't enough players with the talent to be viable options inside 50. When all 6 require tight manning because all of them are ridiculously good ur zone defence simply becomes a pick your poison system. If someone leaves there man to aid, the kicker can simply kick it to the free man or the one with the biggest mismatch.

Some silly teams such as Carlton under Teague thought you could still play this way but it would only ever work when every player is AA quality... if you were targeting Matt Owies every entry he could be manned up by any loose mid or flanker that's pushed back. On the other hand if you have Jack Viney pushing back to Toby Greene he is going to get creamed.


Team defence is a vital part of modern football so don't try to imply I think its irrelevant. It's just when every player can rip a team to pieces that system no longer works. This can be seen in the NBA and NFL with superteams. Players who require double coverage can either be left with single coverage and generally dominate or you can double up and hope that the loose doesn't destroy you too much.

Simple fact is at some point Jake Bowey is matching up on Dusty and he's kicking 5+
___________________________________________-

Who is this Dusty person about whom you speak?
 

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