Draft Review 2011 - Redo the 2011 AFL Draft

Ambrosia · Dec 28, 2018

Prochard123 said:
The entire foundation of the argument I've read here is that different type of players' DE cannot be compared straight away. Taking away where Adams (on the bench when not on-ball, whoever stated he rotates through defence has absolutely no idea) and Smith (partially in forward line, partially on the bench) spend their secondary minutes, they both play the grunt inside midfielder.

Sure you can make exceptions and show contradictory evidences from the back-half, but the same logic doesn't apply for players who are both midfielders. You said disposal efficiency is not a good indicator of kicking quality, but you have to admit despite its flaws its still a whole lot better than Judd2Sewell's opinion/useless personal eye test.

Regardless, my original opinion is that with Smith and Adams both being terrible to poor disposers of the footy, Adams being the superior ball/clearance winner/contested possession winner is clearly the better player. You all need to chill out especially pricey and martin

Except Taylor Adams and Devon Smith's kick to handball ratios aren't similar so Adams DE is lifted by the fact he kicks the ball proportionally less.

Isaac Cumming No 1 · Dec 28, 2018

Ambrosia said:
Except Taylor Adams and Devon Smith's kick to handball ratios aren't similar so Adams DE is lifted by the fact he kicks the ball proportionally less.

There are a lot of other factors as well. What Kane McGoodwin says is valid. You would expect an average kicker to push the envelope less.

Another example is people criticise Haynes' and Shiel's kicking for us. Both are often cleaning up loose balls in the back 50 and roosting it out of the danger zone at times. It's pretty obviously not ideal but under pressure it is clearly the team instruction.

RedmanWasHere · Dec 28, 2018

Yeah Neale, Wingard, Mitchell, Yeo and Coniglio are the clear 5.

And whichever plonker had Michael Talia in the top few players had no clue.

That off-season recruiting spree doesn't immediately scream star-studded.

Rory Laird and Jack Crisp as rookies were fantastic choices.

Nuggs Bunny · Dec 29, 2018

Ambrosia said:
Except Taylor Adams and Devon Smith's kick to handball ratios aren't similar so Adams DE is lifted by the fact he kicks the ball proportionally less.

Devon: Attempts tricky passes into the forward line, 60% average success rate.
Adams: Attempts 20m kicks, still *s them up most of the time.

You don't need to see D/E stats to know that Devon is a much better kick of the footy, you only need to watch them both. Devon has always been an excellent user of the ball and Adams is nicknamed the butcher for good reason.

Judd2Sewell · Dec 29, 2018

_Swoon said:
Devon: Attempts tricky passes into the forward line, 60% average success rate.
Adams: Attempts 20m kicks, still ****s them up most of the time.

You don't need to see D/E stats to know that Devon is a much better kick of the footy, you only need to watch them both. Devon has always been an excellent user of the ball and Adams is nicknamed the butcher for good reason.

But I've been told that I'm wrong, despite what I (we) have quite plainly witness on many occasions.

TallyHawk · Dec 29, 2018

Prochard123 said:
Hill has never been anything more than a decent player.

Actually nvm, the bolded line just deprived u of any sort of credibility.

A premier wingman is someone like Gaff, Sidebottom, Whitfield, Macrae, Hannebury (seasons ago). Hill is not even remotely close to these guys.

Hill has had 0 good seasons.

You do realize Brad Hill won the BnF (Doig Medal) at Fremantle and was massive factor during the Hawks 3peat. He does so much unrewarded running and his forward entries are excellent. Give me Brad Hill ahead of Taylor Adams every day of the week. You mention Hanners, well he couldn't even catch Hill.

On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

Prochard123 · Dec 30, 2018

TallyHawk said:
You do realize Brad Hill won the BnF (Doig Medal) at Fremantle and was massive factor during the Hawks 3peat. He does so much unrewarded running and his forward entries are excellent. Give me Brad Hill ahead of Taylor Adams every day of the week. You mention Hanners, well he couldn't even catch Hill.

On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

Hill was good in 2017, but literally every year he's been nothing more than mediocre. Tell me how much it hurt you guys to lose Hill? It made you substantially worse right?

Adams would be the 2nd best midfielder at the Hawks ahead of all of O'meara, Shiels and Worpel.

Just about every somewhat credible source has Adams completely ahead of Hill in just about every format.

Brownlow votes, Supercoach, Dreamteam, AFL player rating (Adams is 31st), Theroar top 50 players (Adams is 38th).

Hill does alot of unrewarding running? You mean that's just about the only thing going for him to stay in the AFL right? He's completely liable defensively, easily pushed off the contests and is very similar to Aaron hall but just less damaging.

The AFL player rating is not perfect, I agree with that. However, at least it's an official source with indisputable statistics backing it up, instead of highly biased opinions formed from a couple of guys watching TV on the couch. And according to AFL player rating, Adams is 3rd from this draft behind Tom Mitchell and Lachie Neale. Tell me why the opinion of a supporter of his own team's player trumps the credibility of an official rating? I would personally put Adams a fair bit lower, but Hill doesn't even deserve to clean Adams' shoes for him.

TallyHawk · Dec 30, 2018

I like others on here believe Adams butchers the footy. No way is he better than O’Meara.

You stated Hill had 0 good seasons I pointed out his 2017 bnf. I also pointed out he’s was instrumental in the 3peat. So much so we realised how good he was when he left and it’s a role we have struggled to fill.

You then point to a rating system that places Adams ahead of Coniglio and Wingard. I watch enough footy to realise that is bs.

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Prochard123 · Dec 30, 2018

TallyHawk said:
I like others on here believe Adams butchers the footy. No way is he better than O’Meara.

You stated Hill had 0 good seasons I pointed out his 2017 bnf. I also pointed out he’s was instrumental in the 3peat. So much so we realised how good he was when he left and it’s a role we have struggled to fill.

You then point to a rating system that places Adams ahead of Coniglio and Wingard. I watch enough footy to realise that is bs.

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Kicking ability isn’t the only parameter to judge a players ability, if the game is purely on that, none of Fyfe, Dangerfield or Oliver would be top 10/15 players in the comp. They excel because of how prolific they are around the contests, similar how Adams has O’meara well covered in this area, which is the primary role for an inside mid.

The fact that you do not have his area covered is more because of your drafting strategy if anything, rather than hill being exceptional.

Finally, as I repeated many times, none of these rating system is perfect, each of them is bound to rate some over others due to different preferences. But the fact that ALL of them has Adams several tiers ahead of Hill says something.

Judd2Sewell · Dec 30, 2018

Prochard123 said:
Kicking ability isn’t the only parameter to judge a players ability, if the game is purely on that, none of Fyfe, Dangerfield or Oliver would be top 10/15 players in the comp. They excel because of how prolific they are around the contests, similar how Adams has O’meara well covered in this area, which is the primary role for an inside mid.

The fact that you do not have his area covered is more because of your drafting strategy if anything, rather than hill being exceptional.

Finally, as I repeated many times, none of these rating system is perfect, each of them is bound to rate some over others due to different preferences. But the fact that ALL of them has Adams several tiers ahead of Hill says something.

In short - Hawthorn's entire gameplan relied on movement to open up space, to allow for the fast precision passing. Hill, Smith and Birchall were the three key figures in running to open up the space, providing link-up options and moving the ball forward at speed with their great skills.

Without Hill and Smith in particular the team was much more stagnant and easier to stop.

Yes Hill is a limited player, but what he does do he is elite at - that being his speed, tank, ability to make space and line-up, and his kicking on the run.

As for Hill v Adams, well of course Adams is rated higher despite his lack of skills. He's a true leader and a hard-nosed player.

RedmanWasHere · Jul 14, 2019

BUMP!

Who's improved and who's declined?

Baird · Jul 14, 2019

1. Tom Mitchell
2. Neale
3. Coniglio
4. Yeo
5. Greene
6. Laird
7. Docherty
8. Brad Hill
9. Taylor Adams
10. Devon Smith
11. Wingard
12. Ross
13. Haynes
14. Tomlinson
15. Webster
16. Patton
17. Hoskin-Elliott
18. B. Ellis
19. Crozier
20. Lincoln Mccarthy

Absolutely NAILED IT boys.

Baird · Jul 14, 2019

_Swoon said:
Devon: Attempts tricky passes into the forward line, 60% average success rate.
Adams: Attempts 20m kicks, still fu**s them up most of the time.

You don't need to see D/E stats to know that Devon is a much better kick of the footy, you only need to watch them both. Devon has always been an excellent user of the ball and Adams is nicknamed the butcher for good reason.

Not since 2016.

adammania9 · Jul 15, 2019

2011:
B: Rory Laird (RD Pick 5. 137 games) – Mark Blicavs (RD Pick 54, 149 games) – Jack Crisp (RD Pick 40, 126 games)
HB: Nathan Wilson (Zone selection, 114 games) – Nick Haynes (Pick 7, 119 games) – Sam Docherty (Pick 12, 92 games)
C: Stephen Coniglio (Pick 2, 133 games) – Tom Mitchell (Pick 21, 111 games) – Adam Treloar (Zone selection, 155 games)
HF: Devon Smith (Pick 14, 138 games) – Jonathan Patton (Pick 1, 89 games) – Dylan Shiel (Zone selection, 150 games)
F: Chad Wingard (Pick 6, 155 games) – Jeremy Cameron (Zone selection, 146 games) – Toby Greene (Pick 11, 137 games)
R: Jarrod Witts (Pick 67, 96 games) – Lachie Neale (Pick 58, 151 games) – Elliot Yeo (Pick 30, 147 games)
I: Taylor Adams (Pick 13, 125 games) – Bradley Hill (Pick 33, 143 games) – Will Hoskin-Elliott (Pick 4, 111 games) – Brandon Ellis (Pick 15, 167 games)

A few stiff to miss. It was a very good draft haul this year particularly when factoring in the 18 year olds recruited directly to GWS outside of the draft.

citizen-erased · Jul 15, 2019

adammania9 said:
2011:
B: Rory Laird (RD Pick 5. 137 games) – Mark Blicavs (RD Pick 54, 149 games) – Jack Crisp (RD Pick 40, 126 games)
HB: Nathan Wilson (Zone selection, 114 games) – Nick Haynes (Pick 7, 119 games) – Sam Docherty (Pick 12, 92 games)
C: Stephen Coniglio (Pick 2, 133 games) – Tom Mitchell (Pick 21, 111 games) – Adam Treloar (Zone selection, 155 games)
HF: Devon Smith (Pick 14, 138 games) – Jonathan Patton (Pick 1, 89 games) – Dylan Shiel (Zone selection, 150 games)
F: Chad Wingard (Pick 6, 155 games) – Jeremy Cameron (Zone selection, 146 games) – Toby Greene (Pick 11, 137 games)
R: Jarrod Witts (Pick 67, 96 games) – Lachie Neale (Pick 58, 151 games) – Elliot Yeo (Pick 30, 147 games)
I: Taylor Adams (Pick 13, 125 games) – Bradley Hill (Pick 33, 143 games) – Will Hoskin-Elliott (Pick 4, 111 games) – Brandon Ellis (Pick 15, 167 games)

A few stiff to miss. It was a very good draft haul this year particularly when factoring in the 18 year olds recruited directly to GWS outside of the draft.

But for a decent sized CHB (Haynes is excellent, but he'd be undersized if you fielded that side), there would be no beating that side.

Put WHE @ HF and Shiel on the bench
Not sure you want Dyl shooting at goal that often

flipper83 · Jul 15, 2019

adammania9 said:
2011:
B: Rory Laird (RD Pick 5. 137 games) – Mark Blicavs (RD Pick 54, 149 games) – Jack Crisp (RD Pick 40, 126 games)
HB: Nathan Wilson (Zone selection, 114 games) – Nick Haynes (Pick 7, 119 games) – Sam Docherty (Pick 12, 92 games)
C: Stephen Coniglio (Pick 2, 133 games) – Tom Mitchell (Pick 21, 111 games) – Adam Treloar (Zone selection, 155 games)
HF: Devon Smith (Pick 14, 138 games) – Jonathan Patton (Pick 1, 89 games) – Dylan Shiel (Zone selection, 150 games)
F: Chad Wingard (Pick 6, 155 games) – Jeremy Cameron (Zone selection, 146 games) – Toby Greene (Pick 11, 137 games)
R: Jarrod Witts (Pick 67, 96 games) – Lachie Neale (Pick 58, 151 games) – Elliot Yeo (Pick 30, 147 games)
I: Taylor Adams (Pick 13, 125 games) – Bradley Hill (Pick 33, 143 games) – Will Hoskin-Elliott (Pick 4, 111 games) – Brandon Ellis (Pick 15, 167 games)

A few stiff to miss. It was a very good draft haul this year particularly when factoring in the 18 year olds recruited directly to GWS outside of the draft.

Hayden Crozier bit stiff to miss out. Been fantastic since coming to the dogs. I'd have him on the bench over WHE or Ellis.

adammania9 · Jul 15, 2019

flipper83 said:
Hayden Crozier bit stiff to miss out. Been fantastic since coming to the dogs. I'd have him on the bench over WHE or Ellis.

In the mix for sure, reckon others have been better over the stretch of their careers but

RedmanWasHere · Jun 16, 2020

Almost a year on, how do things stand?

NYRB · Oct 28, 2020

Fair to say Lachie Neale is the dux of the 2011 AFL draft. As has been quoted many times now "not bad for a pick 58"

Cm Perfect · Oct 30, 2020

RedmanWasHere said:
Almost a year on, how do things stand?

Here's how I have it:

1. Neale
2. Greene
3. Yeo
4. Coniglio
5. Adams
6. Tom Mitchell
7. Haynes
8. Docherty
9. Wingard
10. Laird
11. Ross
12. Devon Smith
13. B. Hill
14. Crisp
15. Witts
16. Blicavs
17. Hoskin-Elliott
18. Hamling
19. B. Ellis
20. Crozier

* Mitchell's lower ranking affected by his horrible injury which unfortunately I'm assuming will hamper him for the rest of his career.

* Greene at #2 assuming he remains uninjured and unsuspended for the rest of his career - wishful thinking perhaps.

* Hard to split Yeo, Coniglio and Adams as all are guns. Might be my West Coast bias having Yeo at #3 but you'd be happy with any of them.

Haychh · Oct 30, 2020

I love how the OP had Sam Kerridge in the top 10. Wild

Bulldog Joe · Oct 30, 2020

Cm Perfect said:
Here's how I have it:

1. Neale
2. Greene
3. Yeo
4. Coniglio
5. Adams
6. Tom Mitchell
7. Haynes
8. Docherty
9. Wingard
10. Laird
11. Ross
12. Devon Smith

5

Devon Smith

Age
30

Ht

176cm

Wt
78kg

Pos.
Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D
18.8

5

K
11.1

4

HB
7.8

5

M
3.3

3

T
5.3

5

G
0.9

4

D
16.3

4

K
9.1

4

HB
7.1

4

M
2.3

2

T
5.0

5

G
0.6

4

D
15.6

4

K
9.2

4

HB
6.4

4

M
3.0

3

T
4.0

5

G
0.2

3

13. B. Hill
14. Crisp
15. Witts
16. Blicavs
17. Hoskin-Elliott
18. Hamling
19. B. Ellis
20. Crozier

* Mitchell's lower ranking affected by his horrible injury which unfortunately I'm assuming will hamper him for the rest of his career.

* Greene at #2 assuming he remains uninjured and unsuspended for the rest of his career - wishful thinking perhaps.

* Hard to split Yeo, Coniglio and Adams as all are guns. Might be my West Coast bias having Yeo at #3 but you'd be happy with any of them.

As a Bulldog supporter, I would still have Clay Smith well up the list.

What he did in 2016 after busting his knees is well ahead of some on the list.

Had enormous impact on that finals campaign.

Slysh · Nov 1, 2020

Bulldog Joe said:
As a Bulldog supporter, I would still have Clay Smith

Clay Smith

Age
30

Ht

182cm

Wt
85kg

Pos.
Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D
13.8

4

K
7.9

3

HB
5.9

4

M
3.0

3

T
4.8

5

G
0.8

4

No current season stats available

D
10.6

3

K
6.8

3

HB
3.8

3

M
2.4

3

T
3.2

5

G
0.8

4

well up the list.

What he did in 2016 after busting his knees is well ahead of some on the list.

Had enormous impact on that finals campaign.

I don't think you can.

It is a shame how his career ended but he played 55 games at an okay level. He will always be remembered fondly in the eyes of Bulldogs fans (fair enough) but he is not better than any of the players on that list.

adammania9 · Nov 12, 2020

Haychh said:
I love how the OP had Sam Kerridge in the top 10. Wild

And that’s Michael Talia in 4th, not Daniel

Jcpdragonx · Nov 19, 2020

1. Neale - Clear
2. Yeo - can take on best mid/moved around the ground. Better defensive mid than Mitchell.
3. Mitchell - One dimensional but gun. Hope he's back to brownlow form where he improved his impact.
4. Greene - Could be higher but always injured
5. Laird - 2 AAs and I think his best is ahead of him in the midfield
6. Wingard - 2 AAs
7. Coniglio - Bad disposal
8. Adams - Lots of injuries, bad disposal up until this year
9. Doch - AA
10. Haynes - AA

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