Preview 2021 Best 22 Discussion

[Docker82]

Why is Ethan Hughes

15

Ethan Hughes

Age

29

Ht

188cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.1

4star

K

8.3

3star

HB

6.8

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.5

3star

MG

182.0

3star

D

10.6

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.6

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

0.9

2star

MG

133.1

2star

D

15.8

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

7.4

5star

M

5.6

5star

T

2.8

5star

MG

185.8

4star

not only left out of best 22s but not even discussed when talking about defenders?

This is a guy that finished top 10 in the best and fairest. He’s behind Ryan and that’s it for a non-KPD spot in our back six.

 

[ImperialPurple]

Why is Ethan Hughes not only left out of best 22s but not even discussed when talking about defenders?

This is a guy that finished top 10 in the best and fairest. He’s behind Ryan and that’s it for a non-KPD spot in our back six.

So much this.

 

[dockerfemme]

So much this.

The bottom line is we have more defenders we all want to see in the team than there are spots. I thought Nathan Wilson had a very good season once he built to match fitness, Conca had some really good games on small forwards and Hughes was a big part of the foundation of a good defence. We have injured players to return (we hope), and we all want to see more of Hayden Young. And there’s my buddy Brennan too. What to do?

 

[dockerfemme]

So much this.

I will just add I think Alex Pearce, Ryan and Logue (unless played elsewhere) are the only locks. You can throw a blanket over another half dozen. It will depend on form, fitness and team balance. And whether anyone can find another string to their bow.

 

[wild side]

Alex Pearce

25

Alex Pearce

Age

28

Ht

201cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

106.3

2star

No current season stats available

D

11.0

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

6.0

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

MG

103.2

2star

isn't even training yet?
He's made of paper mache, so I can't see him as a lock.
He's 50/50, and may I remind you he has never, ever, ever played a full AFL season

 

[theGav56]

Why is Ethan Hughes not only left out of best 22s but not even discussed when talking about defenders?

This is a guy that finished top 10 in the best and fairest. He’s behind Ryan and that’s it for a non-KPD spot in our back six.

He has been really good, and if Hamling, Pearce, Logue and Young weren’t all looking for spots in the team he would be in more discussions. Young is the only one of those not locked in, but as a top end recruit with exactly the skill set we require I would include him before Hughes.

Logue and Young aren’t in the side as KPDs, and join Ryan as mediums. That is leaving one position with Wilson, Conca and Hill all in contention along with Hughes.

I think your question is a better question to throw at list management rather than best 22 given we drafted both Chapman and Walker.

 

[theGav56]

Alex Pearce isn't even training yet?
He's made of paper mache, so I can't see him as a lock.
He's 50/50, and may I remind you he has never, ever, ever played a full AFL season

Yeah but best 22s assume all available.

 

[Ysaye]

Why is Ethan Hughes not only left out of best 22s but not even discussed when talking about defenders?

This is a guy that finished top 10 in the best and fairest. He’s behind Ryan and that’s it for a non-KPD spot in our back six.

For mine the issue with Hughes, and also to a degree Hamling and Pearce is that whilst they are good/better than others from a defensive perspective, to maxmimize what we get out of the backline, adding players that add more offensive whilst not compromising the defence too much is important when talking we talk about the about the best team assuming no injuries. You may be right that Hughes is the second best after Ryan for non-PKD (I would argue that he is probably equal to Conca, another player that is not making too many teams but is very good in blanketing small forwards) in terms of purely defence and that that was seen when we were basically playing Ryan / Hughes as the second defender for most of the season, but in terms of offensive he is right down the list.

To take it to the extreme, from a purely defensive perspective, Pearce, Hamling, Ryan, Hughes, Conca and Logue represents the "best 6", but there is no way that you would pick them in the team if some of the better offensive backman are available. Assuming full fitness and no form issues, guys like Logue, Cox (and Young for non-KPD, maybe even Duman) add a stronger offensive element represent better value for positions than their comparative players and hence they tend to take up a spaces in best 22s.

 

[eastfreo75]

Why is Ethan Hughes not only left out of best 22s but not even discussed when talking about defenders?

This is a guy that finished top 10 in the best and fairest. He’s behind Ryan and that’s it for a non-KPD spot in our back six.

Hughes is 26, great defensively and offensively lacks the line breaking. His skills have improved but he isn't a weapon.

Ryan is All Australian.
Wilson is a line breaker and is playing a different role.
Young's kicking is out of this world.
Conca shut down roles were awesome.

Hamling and Pearce kicking is below standard and needs players around who uses the ball extremely well to cover their lack of skill.

Logue can play on talls and smalls.

Does Hughes deserve a spot? Totally yes, but its the structure of the backline might rob of him of a place.

If Hamling or Pearce don't come up , Hughes is a monty to play.

 

[Docker82]

For mine the issue with Hughes, and also to a degree Hamling and Pearce is that whilst they are good/better than others from a defensive perspective, to maxmimize what we get out of the backline, adding players that add more offensive whilst not compromising the defence too much is important when talking we talk about the about the best team assuming no injuries. You may be right that Hughes is the second best after Ryan for non-PKD (I would argue that he is probably equal to Conca, another player that is not making too many teams but is very good in blanketing small forwards) in terms of purely defence and that that was seen when we were basically playing Ryan / Hughes as the second defender for most of the season, but in terms of offensive he is right down the list.

To take it to the extreme, from a purely defensive perspective, Pearce, Hamling, Ryan, Hughes, Conca and Logue represents the "best 6", but there is no way that you would pick them in the team if some of the better offensive backman are available. Assuming full fitness and no form issues, guys like Logue, Cox (and Young for non-KPD, maybe even Duman) add a stronger offensive element represent better value for positions than their comparative players and hence they tend to take up a spaces in best 22s.

I’ve said this before and will say it again. The difference between the ball use of Ryan and Hughes is minimal at best.

The back six is pretty simple to pick Pearce, Ryan, Hughes, Hamling, Logue and Wilson. In that order.

 

[Docker82]

Alex Pearce

25

Alex Pearce

Age

28

Ht

201cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

106.3

2star

No current season stats available

D

11.0

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

6.0

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

MG

103.2

2star

isn't even training yet?
He's made of paper mache, so I can't see him as a lock.
He's 50/50, and may I remind you he has never, ever, ever played a full AFL season

He was in Tasmania rather than WA. Everything from the club indicates he would be ready to go when he returns to the club.

 

[eastfreo75]

I’ve said this before and will say it again. The difference between the ball use of Ryan and Hughes is minimal at best.

The back six is pretty simple to pick Pearce, Ryan, Hughes, Hamling, Logue and Wilson. In that order.
[/QUOTE/]

Ryan turnover the ball a bit more but his metre gain is more than double of Hughes. Hughes kick to handball ratio is lower than Ryan's and Ryan has 1/3 more disposals.

Ryan effective disposal is 84.4% verses 78.1% yet Ryan doubles the metre's gained.

Sorry, Ryan is a way better user of the ball than Hughes.

Hughes disposals have improved but my point is Hamling and Pearce isn't.

You need better ball users around them.

 

[Big Flappy]

I’ve said this before and will say it again. The difference between the ball use of Ryan and Hughes is minimal at best.

The back six is pretty simple to pick Pearce, Ryan, Hughes, Hamling, Logue and Wilson. In that order.

Except Hughes takes an eternity to decide what to do and then execute the skill

 

[Docker82]

Except Hughes takes an eternity to decide what to do and then execute the skill

As exposed to Ryan whose exactly the same except kicks it longer?

Literally the length Ryan can kick the ball is the only difference between the two. Higher metres gained and disposal efficiency only back up this point.

 

[eastfreo75]

As exposed to Ryan whose exactly the same except kicks it longer?

Literally the length Ryan can kick the ball is the only difference between the two. Higher metres gained and disposal efficiency only back up this point.

Ryan averaged 5.2 marks for 14.8 kicks vs Hughes 4.7 marks for 8.2 kicks.

Hughes percentage should higher than Ryan's as Hughes kicks are shorter and more from marks.

Both average 0.7 free kicks a game but considering that Ryan's has 1/3 more possessions, it should have resulted in a better effectively for Hughes.

 

[Troy Cooked It]

I think the excitement for me this year coming is that we will truly start to see the selection policy of JLo, is he going to prioritise youth and keep the kids in, or with finals almost a must for the year, is he going to take the experienced players?

It makes our best 22 attempts quite hard to pick (especially in the backline) with very promising youth (eg Young, Logue, Cox) fighting for spots with leaders/seasoned players who have proven to be decent (Conca, Wilson, Hughes), but we all know they have their limitations.

My thoughts on this is that Longmuir being a new age coach from a new school of thinking, will be prioritising neither youth or experience, and will be starting preseason telling the players it will be their character, professionalism, application at training and outside of training, that will be getting them selected before their ability does it. I think that's why we saw players like Colyer, Conca play a lot more games than people expected. But with that I also think Jlo can recognize clear talent (being a development coach at the start of his coaching career should help) and when a player has it (Young) and won't be letting them sit in the twos.

With that here's my take on what I think JLo's team will be (if everyone fit):

FB- Logue Hamling Conca
HB- Wilson Pearce Ryan
C- Aish Tucker Acres
HF- Walters Taberner Sturt
FF- Fyfe Lobb Shultz
R- Darcy Serong Cerra
Int- Young, Brayshaw, Henry, Mundy
Eme- Hughes, Cox, Chapman, Crowden

Few notes-
-Young relief rotating through the wings but mainly HB
- Fyfe and Sturt i personally think is the key to our forward line, both of them are very capable in the air and will be damaging on the ground. The perfect medium fwd duo, one crash and bash contested and the other fast, agile and skillful.
- Walters and Shultz again are a great partnership to have in smalls, we get both the goals and creativity and the defensive small workhorse
- Taberner and Lobb likely alternating between deep lying and pushing up to be the outlet, they both have the aerobic capacity.
- Think both Aish and Acres will also rotate with both spending time on the defensive fat side wing role and the more attacking wing. With Cerra and Tucker both rotating through the wings as well
- Pretty standard midfield rotation with Serong, Brayshaw, Cerra, Tucker, Mundy being the regulars with cameos from Fyfe and Walters if we are getting beaten and/or if the ball is in in the fwd 50 they will get to work.
- Hughes is by far the most unluckiest, Conca is a leader and can lock down a small the best of our defence which also allows Logue to match up on the more awkward types from teams. I think Hughes is unfortunately fighting for a spot over two of our more promising players with higher ceilings than most, Logue and Young which leaves him wanting sadly as I do love his bone crunching hits and complete disregard for his own body in a contest.

Think this year our depth and the effect of injuries will be much less felt, with experienced players ready for most positions and talented youth as well, might be a bloody hard team to crack into!

Let me know your thoughts team!

 

[wild side]

He was in Tasmania rather than WA. Everything from the club indicates he would be ready to go when he returns to the club.
[/QUOTE]

Same as every year, and then his leg drops as he kicks the ball and he's got a fracture.
I think the people hoping for him to be the great hope are delusional imo

 

[ImperialPurple]

For a last line defender who averages 14.5 disposals (78% efficiency, only 1.5 changers), and 4.6 marks / game (over past 5 seasons - 4.8 intercepts in 2020 alone), finished 7th in the B&F 2020 (one vote behind Tabs), and twice voted ‘most courageous’ by the players, I find it difficult to see how Hughes can be left out. I think he’s in until someone pushes him out.
I’m an unabashed Hughes fan, evidenced by the ‘toast’ thread I started mid-season, so maybe I’m biased, but those are some solid numbers, and he is clearly admired by the players. Those ‘courageous’ acts can really inspire a team, so I think there are many intangibles that come with having Hughes in the side.
I also love what Conca brings, esp surrounding leadership, and he is clearly highly rated and respected by the playing group. It would be really hard to leave him out, but Hughes is in my team before Conca.
I guess the thing is that with inevitable injuries they’ll both be in anyway.

 

[eastfreo75]

For a last line defender who averages 14.5 disposals (78% efficiency, only 1.5 changers), and 4.6 marks / game (over past 5 seasons - 4.8 intercepts in 2020 alone), finished 7th in the B&F 2020 (one vote behind Tabs), and twice voted ‘most courageous’ by the players, I find it difficult to see how Hughes can be left out. I think he’s in until someone pushes him out.
I’m an unabashed Hughes fan, evidenced by the ‘toast’ thread I started mid-season, so maybe I’m biased, but those are some solid numbers, and he is clearly admired by the players. Those ‘courageous’ acts can really inspire a team, so I think there are many intangibles that come with having Hughes in the side.
I also love what Conca brings, esp surrounding leadership, and he is clearly highly rated and respected by the playing group. It would be really hard to leave him out, but Hughes is in my team before Conca.
I guess the thing is that with inevitable injuries they’ll both be in anyway.

It’s about Balance.

Hamling and Pearce take the key positions. Both lack skills.

Logan takes the third tall. He’s not the best kick.

Ryan takes the fourth tall. Luke is ok with the pill.

The final spots must be players with skills or at least line breaker ability.

Young is still developing and Hughes will have him covered for defensive skills. Young’s skills are elite and Hughes has improved but he’s not an elite user.

Wilson is a line breaker and skills are ok.

Conca destroyed Martin and Papley. I do agree Hughes should be ahead of him.

Hill had a horrible year. If he can back to his elite use of the ball, he’s an asset.

Two players out of 9 won’t be in the team.

Add Chapman it’s a pretty deep back half.

Duiman has improved but seriously I don’t see him getting a game. Same with Watson.

Walker can develop in the WAFL for two years.

Add Cox to the mix as well but got a feeling he will go forward.

 

[Scham]

I think the excitement for me this year coming is that we will truly start to see the selection policy of JLo, is he going to prioritise youth and keep the kids in, or with finals almost a must for the year, is he going to take the experienced players?


My thoughts on this is that Longmuir being a new age coach from a new school of thinking, will be prioritising neither youth or experience, and will be starting preseason telling the players it will be their character, professionalism, application at training and outside of training, that will be getting them selected before their ability does.

My thoughts are exactly the same as yours, he’ll do what all the best coaches do and pick the best side to win the game regardless of age, experience, reputation or how well he gets on with them.

 

[Scham]

Except Hughes takes an eternity to decide what to do and then execute the skill

Correct. Decision making is his Achilles heel. Just lacks a bit of footy nouse.

 

[meesy]

Hughes reminds me of Ibbotson

 

[Docker82]

Ryan averaged 5.2 marks for 14.8 kicks vs Hughes 4.7 marks for 8.2 kicks.

Hughes percentage should higher than Ryan's as Hughes kicks are shorter and more from marks.

Both average 0.7 free kicks a game but considering that Ryan's has 1/3 more possessions, it should have resulted in a better effectively for Hughes.

All kicks not marked by an opponent that are over 40m are considered long. Given this Luke Ryan kicking efficiency should be 100%

 

[eastfreo75]

All kicks not marked by an opponent that are over 40m are considered long. Given this Luke Ryan kicking efficiency should be 100%

Its easier to hit a target if you have marked the ball or given a free kick.

Short kicks in the back half can improved that stat.

Much harder to hit targets in pressure situations. Hughes usually handballs to another people who is under pressure, while Ryan will kick it 60m out the defensive zone.

Passing off the responsibility to another player might be good stat wise but it's not great football.

I wish they took a stat that result of possession on the next possession.

NBA has a stat called the " Hockey assist" which is a pass that leads to an asset.

AFL is more complex stat wise than basketball.

 

[Docker82]

Its easier to hit a target if you have marked the ball or given a free kick.

Short kicks in the back half can improved that stat.

Much harder to hit targets in pressure situations. Hughes usually handballs to another people who is under pressure, while Ryan will kick it 60m out the defensive zone.

Passing off the responsibility to another player might be good stat wise but it's not great football.

I wish they took a stat that result of possession on the next possession.

NBA has a stat called the " Hockey assist" which is a pass that leads to an asset.

AFL is more complex stat wise than basketball.

I’m not sure we were watching the same Ethan Hughes this season tbh. I will admit it is a problem he had in the past.

I am basing what I’m saying on what I’ve seen of both playing and my understanding of AFL stats.

I haven’t watched a full game of basketball in my life and don’t really plan to so using that comparison really does nothing for me.