Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

[Diehard Saint]

I think the behaviour was terrible, will probably be proven, and a bunch of people will no longer work in the game, and rightly so.

But clearly there are reasons to lie, there always are with human emotions. A personal grudge against Clarko and others because they feel hard done by? Hate Hawthorn because they feel like they didn't get treated specially enough? A fundamental dislike of the entire footy industry because they haven't succeeded in it? All of these could colour people's memories and push their recall and stories in a more negative direction.

Especially because with anonymity, mostly this doesn't even put them in the spotlight, so there's not a huge downside.

I don't think this undermines their story so far, and again I think it was terrible behaviour and people will rightly be excommunicated because of it.

But if it comes out in a court of law, as it will probably need to, you better expect these are the questions that will be raised in their defence.

Agree - maybe one person here or there. But a group of people, ostensibly supported by a couple of other coaches? Debatable.

They won’t stay anonymous for long, people are already speculating - who are the indigenous players who played at Hawthorn over those years. It wouldn’t be hard to find it you could be bothered.

Of course a court of law will probably not necessarily provide clarity, because there will be a fair amount of he said, she said.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Watch clarko somehow keep a gig

Im sticking a tenner on it

 

[sauce_head]

I don’t understand your answer or you don’t understand my post.

Im saying there is no reason for these players and family to lie about what happened. What’s in it for them? All it does is thrust them into the spotlight, which they’d probably prefer not to be. In other words, there’s probably a lot of truth to their claims.

No I agree. My post was saying that the proposition of “fear” makes them say it was probably addressed at answering a different questions, that being “why did they stay”?

I think we are all saying the same thing!

 

[sunny3193]

New details emerge after Geelong fined over eight-year-long salary cap rules breach

The AFL took action after investigating the Cats’ repeated violations.

7news.com.au

Well colour me shocked!
slapped by a wet lettuce leaf fine.

This will have flown past your teacher’s head but the infringement cited in that article relates to an error in GST in management fees paid for on behalf of the players.
The inference being Geelong is paying the player’s management fees to the player‘s player managers.
IF I am correct:
This makes no difference to the players as they are unlikely to be registered for GST.
But it DOES make a difference to Geelong because they have converted part of their salary cap into a GST payment that they can then claim against any GST collected.
In other words, they have got a tax benefit of 10% of the team’s player management fees which represents pure profit to them.

Check the logic Joffaboy , but I think I am correct.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Agree - maybe one person here or there. But a group of people, ostensibly supported by a couple of other coaches? Debatable.

They won’t stay anonymous for long, people are already speculating - who are the indigenous players who played at Hawthorn over those years. It wouldn’t be hard to find it you could be bothered.

Of course a court of law will probably not necessarily provide clarity, because there will be a fair amount of he said, she said.

I suspect the truth of it all is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Joffaboy]

This will have flown past your teacher’s head but the infringement cited in that article relates to an error in GST in management fees paid for on behalf of the players.
The inference being Geelong is paying the player’s management fees to the player‘s player managers.
IF I am correct:
This makes no difference to the players as they are unlikely to be registered for GST.
But it DOES make a difference to Geelong because they have converted part of their salary cap into a GST payment that they can then claim against any GST collected.
In other words, they have got a tax benefit of 10% of the team’s player management fees which represents pure profit to them.

Check the logic Joffaboy , but I think I am correct.

Thought it would be more an ATO issue than a TPP issue. Will re read but sounds fishy.

Edit: not enough information in the article, but what Sunny posted was probably correct.
It was an Accounting error.

 

[Plugger35]

Everyone talking about how tough Joel Selwood was now that he has retired but he got smashed by Lenny when it came to inside mid hard ball gets.

Yet Lenny only got a Norm Smith in a drawn Grand Final while Selwood walks away with 4 premiership medals, there is no justice in this cruel world.

 

[CursingFijian]

Caroline Wilson “can’t see” Alastair Clarkson coaching Kangaroos in 2023

“I really think it’s going to be difficult for Alastair.”

www.sen.com.au

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Everyone talking about how tough Joel Selwood was now that he has retired but he got smashed by Lenny when it came to inside mid hard ball gets.

Yet Lenny only got a Norm Smith in a drawn Grand Final while Selwood walks away with 4 premiership medals, there is no justice in this cruel world.

Lenny Hayes is far sexier though.

Hayes could be the next James Bond, Selwood would just be random mook who gets killed with no one liner afterwards

 

[austinnn]

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens following external review

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens

www.foxsports.com.au

Stage two emergency at Hawthorn


"...one player claims Clarkson and Fagan were present at a meeting where he was told to leave his pregnant partner ..."

This will be how they keep their jobs; Clarkson and Fagan were just present, someone more expendable did all the intimidating, the victims agree to that, reach a nice cash settlement and agreement to attend cultural awareness workshops and it's a nice little win win since the damage is already done and the guilty parties have all well and truly learnt their lesson.

 

[sunny3193]

Thought it would be more an ATO issue than a TPP issue. Will re read but sounds fishy.

Edit: not enough information in the article, but what Sunny posted was probably correct.
It was an Accounting error.

If correct, and if the standard player management fee is 10% of player salary on a TPP of $13mill, there’s $1.3mill of the TPP that Geelong is paying on behalf of the players for the players management fees.
And $130k that they have converted from a non GST expense into a GST tax credit.
Pure profit.
Nice work.
I wonder if that is industry best practice?

 

[George]

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens following external review

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens

www.foxsports.com.au

Stage two emergency at Hawthorn


"...one player claims Clarkson and Fagan were present at a meeting where he was told to leave his pregnant partner ..."

This will be how they keep their jobs; Clarkson and Fagan were just present, someone more expendable did all the intimidating, the victims agree to that, reach a nice cash settlement and agreement to attend cultural awareness workshops and it's a nice little win win since the damage is already done and the guilty parties have all well and truly learnt their lesson.

There's no world in which they are keeping their jobs, even if 10% of it is true. Best case scenario for them is to leave the industry for a very long time, improve as people, and then quietly come back in a part time or assistant coaching role. But I'm talking like 10-15 years from now.

 

[The Punter]

We live in a world where James Hird is a serious candidate for the Essendon coaching job. I'll believe people becoming unemployable when I see it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens following external review

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens

www.foxsports.com.au

Stage two emergency at Hawthorn


"...one player claims Clarkson and Fagan were present at a meeting where he was told to leave his pregnant partner ..."

This will be how they keep their jobs; Clarkson and Fagan were just present, someone more expendable did all the intimidating, the victims agree to that, reach a nice cash settlement and agreement to attend cultural awareness workshops and it's a nice little win win since the damage is already done and the guilty parties have all well and truly learnt their lesson.

‘They were too busy winning’: Former Hawks Indigenous manager says club must face its past

Leon Egan believes Hawthorn are genuinely trying to make changes, but he said the club in the past had dealt with Indigenous issues in a “tokenistic” fashion.

www.theage.com.au

I don't have the paywall for this. From well before the penny dropped.
But there was one player who stayed with Egan while his partner was still in Darwin.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

* I’m well and truly over hearing about Selwood and *en Geelong.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

This will have flown past your teacher’s head but the infringement cited in that article relates to an error in GST in management fees paid for on behalf of the players.
The inference being Geelong is paying the player’s management fees to the player‘s player managers.
IF I am correct:
This makes no difference to the players as they are unlikely to be registered for GST.
But it DOES make a difference to Geelong because they have converted part of their salary cap into a GST payment that they can then claim against any GST collected.
In other words, they have got a tax benefit of 10% of the team’s player management fees which represents pure profit to them.

Check the logic Joffaboy , but I think I am correct.

So all of the players under that arrangement were effectively getting a 10% discount on their agent fees or a 1% ( $130 000 ) breach of the cap and ripping of the government by $130 000.

 

[bergholt]

We live in a world where James Hird is a serious candidate for the Essendon coaching job. I'll believe people becoming unemployable when I see it.

Wayne Carey had a pretty good career for a while as well

 

[bergholt]

‘They were too busy winning’: Former Hawks Indigenous manager says club must face its past

Leon Egan believes Hawthorn are genuinely trying to make changes, but he said the club in the past had dealt with Indigenous issues in a “tokenistic” fashion.

www.theage.com.au

I don't have the paywall for this. From well before the penny dropped.
But there was one player who stayed with Egan while his partner was still in Darwin.

"Egan and his wife, Kate, housed a number of Hawthorn players over the years including Jed Anderson, James Sicily, Impey, Jermaine Miller-Lewis and Dayle Garlett, along with Richmond’s Shai Bolton."

 

[The Punter]

Wayne Carey had a pretty good career for a while as well

Our football club just tried to sign Jordan De Goey. I think we can all do better.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

"Egan and his wife, Kate, housed a number of Hawthorn players over the years including Jed Anderson, James Sicily, Impey, Jermaine Miller-Lewis and Dayle Garlett, along with Richmond’s Shai Bolton."

I'm thinking the Saints should arrange for an external review, though i don't think we would turn up as many skeletons as the Hawks did.

I think the Hawks prided themselves on being able to deal with players with "difficulties". I'm thinking we are now seeing how heavy handed some of their methods may have been.
Luckily all our kids knew how to make their own beds.

 

[sunny3193]

So all of the players under that arrangement were effectively getting a 10% discount on their agent fees or a 1% ( $130 000 ) breach of the cap and ripping of the government by $130 000.

No. And sort of.
It’s obscure, but if you’re up for it, here’s an explanation.
As the employer, Geelong pays $13mill to their employees (players) as salary.
But most likely act as all employers and deduct the employee’s tax from their salaries, and pay the superannuation contribution to the various funds.
Meaning the players get in their hands $13mill less tax (and most likely super if included in the TPP).
For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the net amount ($13mill less whatever) works out to be $8mill.
From that, the players would pay their managers their management fees @10% of $13mill = $1.3mill, giving them $6.7mill cash in hand.
That last step is probably a pain for both players and player managers. Can you imagine your business relying on 18yo’s remembering to pay their bills on time or even if they know how to pay them?
So Geelong would offer to collect the player management fees in much the same way that they collect the player’s tax from their salaries.
Instead of billing the players, the managers bill Geelong direct.
Now the $’s don’t change.
Geelong still pays $13mill consisting of: tax, super, player management fees, and the balance ending up as cash to the players.
ATO still gets the same tax $’s.
Super funds still get the same contribution $’s.
Players still get the same cash $’s in their hands.
What HAS changed is the GST status of the $13mill.
Previously, it was $13mill, and GST Free.
Now it is $1.3mill including GST, with the balance GST Free.
This is because the player managers are businesses and would all be charging GST.
There would be no player in that circumstance (ie: charging GST), they’re employees.
So there’s now a $130k (10% of $1.3mill) GST liability sitting with Geelong that they would send to the ATO.
At that point, the total $’s out the door at Geelong is $13mill.
BUT, because Geelong is a business that collects and pays GST, they can now claim that $130k as a GST Tax Input credit.
And the $130k is paid back from the Government. (That’s the bit you’re right about).
So they effectively lower their operating costs and generate an additional $130k profit simply by tweaking how they structure these payments.
Very smart accounting, but dodgy ethically.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

No. And sort of.
It’s obscure, but if you’re up for it, here’s an explanation.
As the employer, Geelong pays $13mill to their employees (players) as salary.
But most likely act as all employers and deduct the employee’s tax from their salaries, and pay the superannuation contribution to the various funds.
Meaning the players get in their hands $13mill less tax (and most likely super if included in the TPP).
For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the net amount ($13mill less whatever) works out to be $8mill.
From that, the players would pay their managers their management fees @10% of $13mill = $1.3mill, giving them $6.7mill cash in hand.
That last step is probably a pain for both players and player managers. Can you imagine your business relying on 18yo’s remembering to pay their bills on time or even if they know how to pay them?
So Geelong would offer to collect the player management fees in much the same way that they collect the player’s tax from their salaries.
Instead of billing the players, the managers bill Geelong direct.
Now the $’s don’t change.
Geelong still pays $13mill consisting of: tax, super, player management fees, and the balance ending up as cash to the players.
ATO still gets the same tax $’s.
Super funds still get the same contribution $’s.
Players still get the same cash $’s in their hands.
What HAS changed is the GST status of the $13mill.
Previously, it was $13mill, and GST Free.
Now it is $1.3mill including GST, with the balance GST Free.
This is because the player managers are businesses and would all be charging GST.
There would be no player in that circumstance (ie: charging GST), they’re employees.
So there’s now a $130k (10% of $1.3mill) GST liability sitting with Geelong that they would send to the ATO.
At that point, the total $’s out the door at Geelong is $13mill.
BUT, because Geelong is a business that collects and pays GST, they can now claim that $130k as a GST Tax Input credit.
And the $130k is paid back from the Government. (That’s the bit you’re right about).
So they effectively lower their operating costs and generate an additional $130k profit simply by tweaking how they structure these payments.
Very smart accounting, but dodgy ethically.

I kind of short cutted it all , with a basic understanding.
10% of 10% is 1% of their Salary.

I'm assuming that the club only deduct the "agent fee" and not the "agent fee+gst" from the players pay, because they would be claiming back the GST.
Hence it became a salary cap breach as well as a tax issue.

Relatively low , so relatively low fine from the AFL.

 

[sammm]

It remains the only defence of this s**t show "I dont believe it".

Plenty of people still claiming they need some context or whatever have lost their marbles.

I could understand the reasoning behind one or even two people lying about it but were now at 3 plus 2 club officials validating the claims, its hard to see how its no substantially true at this point.

how can then Clarkson a etc say that its completely untrue?

 

[sammm]

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens following external review

Hawthorn email bombshell rocks AFL as racism scandal widens

www.foxsports.com.au

Stage two emergency at Hawthorn


"...one player claims Clarkson and Fagan were present at a meeting where he was told to leave his pregnant partner ..."

This will be how they keep their jobs; Clarkson and Fagan were just present, someone more expendable did all the intimidating, the victims agree to that, reach a nice cash settlement and agreement to attend cultural awareness workshops and it's a nice little win win since the damage is already done and the guilty parties have all well and truly learnt their lesson.

It it comes out that it is true, that they were just present and didn't saying. They are just as culpable. Saying nothing and not standing up, means you agree.

 

[phantom13]

how can then Clarkson a etc say that its completely untrue?

Few options.

They are lying
They have a fundamentally different view of what they did and how it’s interpreted
They have no idea what else to say

The possibility it’s all a lie is still there (it seems pretty remote at this point but it’s not dead) right now it’s 4-5 peoples word against one (bearing in mind that neither clarko nor fagan is saying the other didn’t do it, only themselves).

My point is more centered around the defence of “we need more context” you absolutely don’t. Think of it this way. If it turns out that they absolutely did ask a player to leave his pregnant wife and asked a player to terminate a pregnancy. What hypothetical context is there that makes it okay?