Training 2023 pre-season

[Zanerednwhite]

Pretty obvious that McLean is a good club man. Turns up all over. Amartey not so much.

What you mean doesn't turn up all over?

 

[Millky95]

Well put and would agree Armartey would be most under pressure. But as I said with Sam, Bud and Hick all probably retiring and Melican coming to the end of his contract also I'm not so sure unless you get a established tall through the door any of them go, for now.

I would have to disagree about Amartey not showing much at the highest level. His a different player and almost in that Sam Reid role bring ball to ground at all cost extreme athelete who can put pressure on. As well as I haven't written him off as a pinch hit ruck, I recall the game vs wc down in Geelong him really taking it up to Nic Nat.

But even if not at the top of the pecking order still very important to have a depth in the tall stocks.

DW we are getting a King next trade period

 

[Zanerednwhite]

DW we are getting a King next trade period

What's that ad,,,, why not both
Geez how long would the trade ban be!!

 

[Kiama Chris]

What you mean doesn't turn up all over?

Example:
McLean was part of the group in Arnhem Land. He seems to be involved in club activities in the community.
Amartey I don't recall seeing in any of those sort of situations.
My interpretation (arguable of course) is that McLean is more serious about his footy (from other reports and comments about training standards and so on) and his involvement in the club than Amartey is.

 

[bedford]

Example:
McLean was part of the group in Arnhem Land. He seems to be involved in club activities in the community.
Amartey I don't recall seeing in any of those sort of situations.
My interpretation (arguable of course) is that McLean is more serious about his footy (from other reports and comments about training standards and so on) and his involvement in the club than Amartey is.

Just because he went up there and Amartey didn't means jackshit , it was on the players break .

 

[Zanerednwhite]

Example:
McLean was part of the group in Arnhem Land. He seems to be involved in club activities in the community.
Amartey I don't recall seeing in any of those sort of situations.
My interpretation (arguable of course) is that McLean is more serious about his footy (from other reports and comments about training standards and so on) and his involvement in the club than Amartey is.

Yeah thats a pretty poor take mate, you really shouldn't elevate or lower someone on the back of people's comments on training standards imo. There's so much that goes on we or anyone would have little to no idea about. Such as injuries or loadings or directives let alone the amount of training that goes on that no one outside the club has access to.

Then my biggest bug bare with your take is that because McLean went on the trip his more invested in the club then Joel or anyone else that didn't go for that matter. Mayby it was limited spots, mayby he had family stuff organised mayby he was doing his own initiatives mayby he was training mayby he was enjoying his right to time off before what could be a life changing year for him and wants to go in fresh who knows! Not us that's for dam sure!

Guys do charity work that we have no idea about, for example if it wasn't for Cunningham being named as a finalists for the Jim Stynes community leadership award I would have had no idea he was so involved with redkite and that a finalists!

Usually see eye to eye on things over on Twitter but defiently have to agree to disagree on that one!

 

[bedford]

Yeah thats a pretty poor take mate, you really shouldn't elevate or lower someone on the back of people's comments on training standards imo. There's so much that goes on we or anyone would have little to no idea about. Such as injuries or loadings or directives let alone the amount of training that goes on that no one outside the club has access to.

Then my biggest bug bare with your take is that because McLean went on the trip his more invested in the club then Joel or anyone else that didn't go for that matter. Mayby it was limited spots, mayby he had family stuff organised mayby he was doing his own initiatives mayby he was training mayby he was enjoying his right to time off before what could be a life changing year for him and wants to go in fresh who knows! Not us that's for dam sure!

Guys do charity work that we have no idea about, for example if it wasn't for Cunningham being named as a finalists for the Jim Stynes community leadership award I would have had no idea he was so involved with redkite and that a finalists!

Usually see eye to eye on things over on Twitter but defiently have to agree to disagree on that one!

I wonder how many on here are on twitter

 

[Zanerednwhite]

I wonder how many on here are on twitter

Don't know mate, but I thought I'd leave this here instead of making another post.

 

[dosser]

Example:
McLean was part of the group in Arnhem Land. He seems to be involved in club activities in the community.
Amartey I don't recall seeing in any of those sort of situations.
My interpretation (arguable of course) is that McLean is more serious about his footy (from other reports and comments about training standards and so on) and his involvement in the club than Amartey is.

Amartey probably wouldn't be travelling if he is recovering from a hammy.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Amartey probably wouldn't be travelling if he is recovering from a hammy.

The trip was before Christmas. He was in the photos on the website.

 

[caesar88]

I don't think Amartey's involvement level in off-field causes is relevant. Every player is different and as Zane said above, we have no idea what they're really like.

The relevant question is how invested Amartey is in improving his game. Based on any and all reports I've seen over the years, he's always bringing up the rear in time trials. So OK, he's a key position player, they're more likely to struggle in a time trial than a wingman or a half back. But is he at least improving on his times? I've just gone back through every available time trial report I could find, and Amartey isn't once named as someone who has had any PBs over the journey. Hell, even Gould with his well-documented fitness issues had his name appear in one of them. Campbell, McLean, Bell and McDonald are others who have been mentioned at least once.

Maybe the club's media coverage just excluded Amartey, or maybe the time trials aren't the be all that ends all in regards to fitness levels. But it would check out in the way he plays and how Horse has treated him. For a tall who is supposed to boast mobility and athleticism, he still moves a little too much like a QE2 for my liking, and whilst his effort is unquestionable (he's a really solid forward 50 tackler in my view), if his pressure is going to be a selling point for him, then his inability to give repeat efforts (presumably from lack of fitness) is an issue. If you look at the likes of Reid, Wicks or Rowbottom, they don't appear to have elite levels of fitness, but they can go from contest to contest without being gassed after one big effort.

I think this is ultimately what's holding Amartey back from being able to have a bigger impact beyond cameo moments and put together more complete performances. And why I think Horse has shown more of a willingness to play McDonald or McLean for extended periods than he has Amartey. And maybe even why Beatson felt compelled to put the pressure on him publicly. Maybe the ability is there but the level of commitment to getting the best out of himself isn't. This is not to say that he's lazy or has an attitude problem. He may think he's giving his all without realising the level you really need to be at to make it.

 

[Swan4Life]

I didn't mean to disrespect your favourite rusty. I was thinking at it more from a logical standpoint, not a critical one.

We will likely only have four, five at the most mids on the inside this year. We know that Parker will be one of them, we know that Mills will be one of them, we know that Rowbottom will be one of them, and we know that Warner will be one of them. I don't see what Sheldrick offers that these four do not. You say he's a wrecking ball and hard at it etc etc., but the implication there is that our existing midfielders are not. And I just don't agree with that.

If there's a fifth cog, which there probably will be, given Horse loves a fifth option, then it will probably be between Papley, who he used a lot in this capacity last year, and Gulden, who is the personification of the class that we both agree the midfield needs. His inside minutes will only increase from here on.

Five out of those six were added to the inside rotations in the last four seasons while the midfield was regenerating. So whilst I like Sheldrick, I feel he has missed the rebuild bus. The spots simply aren't there, unless either an injury occurs (who wants that?) or we expand our midfield rotation to six or seven (go back and look at how well that's worked out for teams.)

FWIW I like Sheldrick's chances when Parker is phased out of the midfield, but I'm not sure we're close to that happening yet. His supposed move to the forward line is as mythological as Rampe's move to the midfield at this stage.

We need an extractor at stoppages. With respect, Parker, Rowy and Warner are not it.

Sheldrick is the missing piece for mine. If he can become our Tom Mitchell or Patrick Cripps, then we will take a lot of stopping.

 

[Bloods86]

I don't think Amartey's involvement level in off-field causes is relevant. Every player is different and as Zane said above, we have no idea what they're really like.

The relevant question is how invested Amartey is in improving his game. Based on any and all reports I've seen over the years, he's always bringing up the rear in time trials. So OK, he's a key position player, they're more likely to struggle in a time trial than a wingman or a half back. But is he at least improving on his times? I've just gone back through every available time trial report I could find, and Amartey isn't once named as someone who has had any PBs over the journey. Hell, even Gould with his well-documented fitness issues had his name appear in one of them. Campbell, McLean, Bell and McDonald are others who have been mentioned at least once.

Maybe the club's media coverage just excluded Amartey, or maybe the time trials aren't the be all that ends all in regards to fitness levels. But it would check out in the way he plays and how Horse has treated him. For a tall who is supposed to boast mobility and athleticism, he still moves a little too much like a QE2 for my liking, and whilst his effort is unquestionable (he's a really solid forward 50 tackler in my view), if his pressure is going to be a selling point for him, then his inability to give repeat efforts (presumably from lack of fitness) is an issue. If you look at the likes of Reid, Wicks or Rowbottom, they don't appear to have elite levels of fitness, but they can go from contest to contest without being gassed after one big effort.

I think this is ultimately what's holding Amartey back from being able to have a bigger impact beyond cameo moments and put together more complete performances. And why I think Horse has shown more of a willingness to play McDonald or McLean for extended periods than he has Amartey. And maybe even why Beatson felt compelled to put the pressure on him publicly. Maybe the ability is there but the level of commitment to getting the best out of himself isn't. This is not to say that he's lazy or has an attitude problem. He may think he's giving his all without realising the level you really need to be at to make it.

Beatson put the pressure on both Amartey and McLean publicly in the same comments.

Amartey had a better year than McLean IMO.

 

[caesar88]

Beatson put the pressure on both Amartey and McLean publicly in the same comments.

Amartey had a better year than McLean IMO.

Yes and no. Beatson cited McLean as well as Amartey as players they're relying on to improve, but I took this elaboration on Amartey as a sign there's a bit more urgency where he's concerned. Though to be fair, he does emphasise the role injuries have played.

"We've got Logan (McDonald) and that's about it, unless Joel (Amartey) and Hayden (McLean) can continue to progress," he said.

"Joel Amartey has been a bit of a frustrating one over the last couple of years because he's just had these little niggles, had a restricted pre-season last year because of OP (osteitis pubis), still think he's got a lot of promise, but he's got to start performing."

As for Amartey having a better year than McLean, sure... if you take away games played, goals, goal assists, contested marks, score involvements.

 

[caesar88]

We need an extractor at stoppages. With respect, Parker, Rowy and Warner are not it.

Sheldrick is the missing piece for mine. If he can become our Tom Mitchell or Patrick Cripps, then we will take a lot of stopping.

I'll just leave this here.

I guess I'm just not necessarily part of the "widely accepted" belief that we need to improve our clearance and contested possession game, so as I said yesterday, the urgency to have a player like Sheldrick in the side just isn't there for me at present. Mainly because I think we already have improved our midfield - through one player in particular - and one bad day at the office has seemingly overshadowed that progress we made.

DQ and Horace were lamenting our stoppage clearance ability, but in the last ten games of the season, we were ranked 3rd in the comp for stoppage clearances (we also won the stoppage clearance count in 8 of these 10 games, including the GF, where it supposedly cost us.)

Every man and his dog have been lamenting our contested possession game, but in the last ten games of the season, we were ranked 2nd in the comp for contested possessions (behind only the eventual premiers Geelong - no shame in that.)

Horace then singles out Rowbottom as the one not offering enough in stoppages, but in the last ten games of the season, he averaged 4.7 stoppage clearances, way ahead of Parker (4.1), Mills and Warner (2.6 each.)

His 4.7 stoppage clearances that he got as an 82kg 21 year old with less than 70 games experience was higher than what JPK averaged (4.5) in the three consecutive years he made the All Australian squad between 2015 and 2017, so again, do we miss him, or have we found his potential heir?

Horace also makes note that Sheldrick's first-touch hard ball gets are a point of difference over Rowbottom, but in the last ten games of the season - when we were 2nd in contested possessions - Rowbottom had the biggest increase in his contested possessions of any Swan (+3.2.)

But those are just stats. I didn't need stats to tell me that our midfield was besting quality midfield outfits like that of Fremantle, the Bulldogs, Melbourne and Collingwood en route to the grand final, or that Rowbottom was just about the best first-touch mid in the comp in the last few months of the season.

I'm not saying our midfield is perfect. I think it's a work-in-progress and there's things I would personally change if it were up to me. But it feels like sometimes people are just pulling made-up reasons for why it's not perfect from obscurity and trying to make them stick. It's frustrating to read over and over and I will cop that that frustration can get the better of me.

You said it best: most of our current midfield is young and should have plenty of improvement left in them. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.

 

[Bloods86]

Yes and no. Beatson cited McLean as well as Amartey as players they're relying on to improve, but I took this elaboration on Amartey as a sign there's a bit more urgency where he's concerned. Though to be fair, he does emphasise the role injuries have played.

"We've got Logan (McDonald) and that's about it, unless Joel (Amartey) and Hayden (McLean) can continue to progress," he said.

"Joel Amartey has been a bit of a frustrating one over the last couple of years because he's just had these little niggles, had a restricted pre-season last year because of OP (osteitis pubis), still think he's got a lot of promise, but he's got to start performing."

As for Amartey having a better year than McLean, sure... if you take away games played, goals, goal assists, contested marks, score involvements.

Not exactly big gaps at AFL level, although it would be nice to see Amartey afforded the same opportunities given the gap in reserves form. Unfortunately injuries also played their part at the wrong time.

We may see a true comparison next year when they probably both have to play in the 22, in their favoured roles, without the additional competition for Amartey. If both are still around that is.

 

[caesar88]

Not exactly big gaps at AFL level, although it would be nice to see Amartey afforded the same opportunities given the gap in reserves form. Unfortunately injuries also played their part at the wrong time.

We may see a true comparison next year when they probably both have to play in the 22, in their favoured roles, without the additional competition for Amartey.

FWIW I was of the belief that Amartey should've got the nod over McLean for the GF. I thought he was in better touch at the time (not that McLean wasn't playing well though.) But McLean still getting the nod reinforced to me that Horse had that little bit more faith in him, and that there was maybe more to the story.

I'll also note that just because I am less bullish on Amartey than the two Big Macs, it doesn't mean I don't rate him. I'm not sure he'll make it, but I'm also a believer that if he does make it, he can make it as the third cog in a McDonald-McLean-Amartey forward line. I think his strengths complements theirs ideally. And I am aware I'm on an island of exactly one person in that belief haha

 

[Bloods86]

FWIW I was of the belief that Amartey should've got the nod over McLean for the GF. I thought he was in better touch at the time (not that McLean wasn't playing well though.) But McLean still getting the nod reinforced to me that Horse had that little bit more faith in him, and that there was maybe more to the story.

I'll also note that just because I am less bullish on Amartey than the two Big Macs, it doesn't mean I don't rate him. I'm not sure he'll make it, but I'm also a believer that if he does make it, he can make it as the third cog in a McDonald-McLean-Amartey forward line. I think his strengths complements theirs ideally. And I am aware I'm on an island of exactly one person in that belief haha

Yeah, with you on the GF selection, although to McLean's credit I thought he improved at VFL level as the year went on, and Amartey's peak form was earlier.

Agree, they are different players. At VFL level, I was impressed with Amartey's leading work (and conversion) though he did pluck a few in contests. Amartey has Buddy/Reid/Logan as competition and I think that has an impact on his numbers, while Reid is probably the only one directly in McLean's way.

It does seem that Horse has more faith in McLean, but aside from one or two standout games (a while ago) I'm not sure it's justified (in comparison).

I expect more of the same this year, though obviously any earlier preference for McLean is fair enough given injury.

 

[Zanerednwhite]

FWIW I was of the belief that Amartey should've got the nod over McLean for the GF. I thought he was in better touch at the time (not that McLean wasn't playing well though.) But McLean still getting the nod reinforced to me that Horse had that little bit more faith in him, and that there was maybe more to the story.

I'll also note that just because I am less bullish on Amartey than the two Big Macs, it doesn't mean I don't rate him. I'm not sure he'll make it, but I'm also a believer that if he does make it, he can make it as the third cog in a McDonald-McLean-Amartey forward line. I think his strengths complements theirs ideally. And I am aware I'm on an island of exactly one person in that belief haha

Your not Tom Hanks on the island mate, I said in my first post I can see world with all 3 inside 50 as they all compliment each other and with the upcoming retirements unless we trade in an established fwd.

 

[Bloods86]

Your not Tom Hanks on the island mate, I said in my first post I can see world with all 3 inside 50 as they all compliment each other and with the upcoming retirements unless we trade in an established fwd.

Yeah, at this stage, as long as another club doesn't poach one of them, I think next year it's going to be a matter of "well, this is our forward line now, let's see how it goes". Some have mentioned going back to 2 talls and Heeney/Hayward/HHK etc, but it seems to me that Horse has avoided that at all costs for any game.

 

[MightyBloods]

I watched Will Hayward

9

Will Hayward

Age

25

Ht

186cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.8

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

9.0

2star

K

4.3

2star

HB

4.7

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.7

4star

D

9.4

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.4

5star

's recent interview on the Swan's website. He mentions at 1min 30s the young guys who have impressed him. He mentions Jakey (our first draft pick) & Syd. "You probably don't know Syd. You will soon".

Who's Syd?

 

[Bloods86]

I watched Will Hayward's recent interview on the Swan's website. He mentions at 1min 30s the young guys who have impressed him. He mentions Jakey (our first draft pick) & Syd. "You probably don't know Syd. You will soon".

Who's Syd?

Believe it's Caleb Mitchell.

 

[Zanerednwhite]

Believe it's Caleb Mitchell.

Thank you ive been thinking the same bloody thing who the hell is Sid!

 

[Bloods86]

Thank you ive been thinking the same bloody thing who the hell is Sid!

Someone else mentioned it somewhere, I just couldn't find the post to give them credit.

Edit: It was caesar88 .

 

[anotherletdown]

FWIW I was of the belief that Amartey should've got the nod over McLean for the GF. I thought he was in better touch at the time (not that McLean wasn't playing well though.) But McLean still getting the nod reinforced to me that Horse had that little bit more faith in him, and that there was maybe more to the story.

I'll also note that just because I am less bullish on Amartey than the two Big Macs, it doesn't mean I don't rate him. I'm not sure he'll make it, but I'm also a believer that if he does make it, he can make it as the third cog in a McDonald-McLean-Amartey forward line. I think his strengths complements theirs ideally. And I am aware I'm on an island of exactly one person in that belief haha

On your last point. I've been ship wrecked on the same island ever since McDonald was drafted but it only works if Amartey can become more mobile.... and the jury has been deliberating for years now. He needs a good year and that injury is very problematic