Training Apples' Training Threads 2018/19

[Saintly Viewed]

My late father practised handball like polly , kicked stab passes both feet 30 meters at 55

Learnt his skills playing in lane ways with a paper ball

Would play before school , after school

His mates were better

You had to be tough , resilient and skilled

These days better conditions, full time training , dietician and all the support you need but

The skills are deplorable
The umpiring s worse

The following 10 players would make the current crop look very ordinary

Robert flower
Barry price
Bary cable
Bobby skilton
Robert Harvey
Nathan Buckley
Len Thompson
Kevin Bartlett
Doug Hawkins
PHIL carmen

And that's just of the top of my head

All would be better if playing today

Darky you’ve hit the proverbial nail.

All the extra stuff they do eg diet... how much of this takes away from kicking a ball and practicing.
Ofcourse they practice and do plenty but as kids we kicked the ball before after and in between the day.

Though we do romanticise the past and skills today are strong.
The best players in all eras, even today have great skills.

Daniel Wells is exquisite, would have been in any era.
Keith Grieg from yesteryear.

The real question is, are today’s players overall more skilled or not?

If not in which areas?

Goal kicking?

I’d venture the ratio of goals to behinds is not much different in any era.

Between the ears, technique... all plays a roll.
Just like putting in golf.

 

[sr36]

Watch half the players techniques & you can see why they miss so much. Right footers veer to the right on their approach & left footers veer to the left so often nowadays.
They also pivot time & time again on the planted foot when kicking for goal. They open up so many ways to stuff things up.
Walk straight at the target & make sure your leg is kicking straight up & not across your body. Don't pivot or slide on the support leg.
KISS = "Keep It Simple Stupid".

I agree with the pivot and arc, but think for many, an obsession with keeping everything straight is the issue. They line it up with shoulders sqaure and ball central to their body. They then run in that way trying to keeo everything straight and square.
The issue is that you don't kick that way. It's unnatural and why so many players end up running an arc.

When you kick, you plant a leg, weight shifts to that leg, shoulders are slightly closed, the ball across to the kicking leg and then your leg swings through a slight arc.
They should set up with the shoulders slightly closed like they should be at ball drop, and the ball shifted across to the right leg. Then like you said, run in straight and kick through the ball.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I actually think players should look at Paul Medhurst's technique for kicking when you are 30 metres out.

He used to hold the ball completely vertical. It looked like how you teach your child to kick when they first pick up a football. He would drop the ball very straight onto his boot.

Then he would kick the ball very high. There was no penetration in his kick. It was a totally simple technique. However, I reckon a lot of players make mistakes by trying to kick through the ball too much, or trying to kick across their body. Kicking it straight and high took out a lot of the risk elements.

It only works when you are 30 out, on a slight angle and there is little wind. Once you add distance, angle and weather, then you need more penetration in the kick.

But for your simple set shots, a few steps, followed by a very straight ball drop, and trying to kick it nice and high used to work really well for Medhurst.

9 iron?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Also one other thing on kicking technique.

If it works well for you, keep doing it.

If it doesn’t, drop it, or work on it.

 

[Scodog10]

Not trying to be a nit picker here BUT the stats you're quoting (and I've seen them before and laughed) HAVE to be skewed simply because stats on goal kicking: point kicking didn't exist until the mid 70's when Barrassi wanted to challenge his players. They always kept note of the goals kicked but points weren't seen as relevant stats. If clubs kept these sorts of stats privately the VFL never published them and I struggle to see where the stats suddenly appeared from in the naughties?

I'm assuming Sco that you went to as many Collingwood games as I did in the 70's and 80's (I won't go into goal kicking prior to that!) but if McKenna missed 2 shots in the same game he was seen to be "having a bad day". I did see him kick 4 points once at Vicci Park BUT he'd kicked 16 goals in the same game so I sort've excused him.

Hudson kicked a point when he was on 150 goals in the 1971 Gf but he was concussed at the time so again, we excused him!
Lockett kicked the most important point in the Prelim final against Essendon but he hardly ever missed!

Now I take your point that I have mentioned champs from the past....but that's my assertion. WHERE are the Champs of TODAY that kick the drop punt and do it with the accuracy from set shots that Lockett, Dunstall, Hudson, Lloyd, Daicos, McKenna, Roach, Blethyn, Jezza and Moncrief had? They DON'T EXIST....why?

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/P/Peter_McKenna.html

874g 470b at 65%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/B/Bernie_Quinlan.html

817g 612b at 57%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jason_Dunstall.html

1254g 641b at 66%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/K/Kelvin_Templeton.html

593g 335b at 64%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tony_Lockett.html

1360g 590b at 70% (69.7 to be exact)

I can’t say your POV is incorrect, but I doubt statisticians would publish numbers that were even a remote chance of being incorrect (Ron The Bear can probably speak on that). It’s completely against their perfectionist personalities, IMO. I never saw Peter McKenna kick a footy so I can only go on data and the memories of my dad. I know for a fact his memory ain’t what it used to be and his love for the likes of Carman and McKenna has only grown with time just as I’m sure my memories of Swanny, Leon and Dids will...

My assessment of where those champions of yesteryear are now is the midfield. That’s where the most skilful players spend the majority of their time in the modern game.

Take JDG as an example he’s roughly the same height as Plugger and taller than most of the greats that you’ve named. In a bygone era he’d be 10kg heavier and not expected to cover 12-15km per game. Despite that his conversion rate stacks up with past greats.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jordan_de_Goey.html

86g 50b at 63%

Bontempelli, Martin and Cripps are others that in bygone eras would have been FF’s and even now could kick 50-60 as permanent forwards. I also suspect that poor goal kicking from key forwards these days is due to the desire to have 195cm+ targets. A lot can go wrong from hand to foot when you’re that tall if you have even minor technical issues.

My overall assessment is that not much has changed in terms of individual talent it’s now in different areas of the field and clubs want to spread the load more. They’d rather have five blokes kicking a goal a game than one bloke kicking five because it’s less likely five blokes will have down games than one...

 

[Darkyprotector]

Darky you’ve hit the proverbial nail.

All the extra stuff they do eg diet... how much of this takes away from kicking a ball and practicing.
Ofcourse they practice and do plenty but as kids we kicked the ball before after and in between the day.

Though we do romanticise the past and skills today are strong.
The best players in all eras, even today have great skills.

Daniel Wells is exquisite, would have been in any era.
Keith Grieg from yesteryear.

The real question is, are today’s players overall more skilled or not?

If not in which areas?

Goal kicking?

I’d venture the ratio of goals to behinds is not much different in any era.

Between the ears, technique... all plays a roll.
Just like putting in golf.

In a game based on turnovers , we committ too many

Seems that's the go , punish the mistake with speed
Gws, port, tigers, hawks, dogs and cats all did that this weekend
We gotta get more run from the back

Funny I've always felt that it's between the ears

Perfect example foul shooting in basketball
Shaq tried for years and never got it
Even had Eddie paubaliskis coaching him 1 on 1 didn't help

 

[loki04]

For old timers Peter Hudson flat punts just went straight.

Tony Lockett also simple classical kicking.

Quinlan just looked poetic.

Doug Wade used to torpedo punt close in; I’ve heard him talk about it, he said it would just go straight through, slice the goals.

(Separately for distance passing nobody kicked better than Nathan Buckley.)

Is this kicking in general or goal kicking you are talking about Saintly as imo the most effective for each are 2 very different types of kicks.


For goal kicking the best usually had a lot of hang time or up and under the footy. Ablett snr, Dunstall, Modra, Lloyd, Fevola, S.Rocca, Carey and Lockett kicked set shots like this.

.




https://youtu.be/gwZWCbw5qvE
https://youtu.be/74xs6DR0LhA


Did Hudson kick goals with the same low hard flat kicks he used for field kicking out of interest?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Is this kicking in general or goal kicking you are talking about Saintly as imo the most effective for each are 2 very different types of kicks.


For goal kicking the best usually had a lot of hang time or up and under the footy. Ablett snr, Dunstall, Modra, Lloyd, Fevola, S.Rocca, Carey and Lockett kicked set shots like this.

Did Hudson kick goals with the same low hard flat kicks he used for field kicking out of interest?

More talking about set shots.

Field kicking is a different beast ofcourse. I just mentioned it as an aside.

Hudson really bowed and bent quite a bit over the ball in his set shots, and flat punted.

I only have clear memory of him in 1977. Only quite little then.

But for the nostalgics

 

[loki04]

Take JDG as an example he’s roughly the same height as Plugger and taller than most of the greats that you’ve named. In a bygone era he’d be 10kg heavier and not expected to cover 12-15km per game. Despite that his conversion rate stacks up with past greats.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jordan_de_Goey.html

86g 50b at 63%

Bontempelli, Martin and Cripps are others that in bygone eras would have been FF’s and even now could kick 50-60 as permanent forwards. I also suspect that poor goal kicking from key forwards these days is due to the desire to have 195cm+ targets. A lot can go wrong from hand to foot when you’re that tall if you have even minor technical issues.

My overall assessment is that not much has changed in terms of individual talent it’s now in different areas of the field and clubs want to spread the load more. They’d rather have five blokes kicking a goal a game than one bloke kicking five because it’s less likely five blokes will have down games than one...

This is a very pertinent point Sco kicking whilst fatigued would play a major role in modern players conversion rates, the amount of running required of forwards now compared to the 90s and before would be much higher.
Added to that they didn't have a 30sec matty Lloyd shot clock to deal with either further keeping the calf pump or general fatigue high when kicking.
The main reason for Lloyds grass throw was for longer rest periods prior to kicking (many old school forwards did it throw grass, pull up socks, tie shoelaces, continuously ask where mark is... etc).

 

[loki04]

More talking about set shots.

Field kicking is a different beast ofcourse. I just mentioned it as an aside.

Hudson really bowed and bent quite a bit over the ball in his set shots, and flat punted.

I only have clear memory of him in 1977. Only quite little then.

But for the nostalgics

Just found this of him mate:



Interesting that the torp seemed to be the weapon of choice even when he played for vic 30m out dead in front opted for it.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

This is a very pertinent point Sco kicking whilst fatigued would play a major role in modern players conversion rates, the amount of running required of forwards now compared to the 90s and before would be much higher.
Added to that they didn't have a 30sec matty Lloyd shot clock to deal with either further keeping the calf pump or general fatigue high when kicking.
The main reason for Lloyds grass throw was for longer rest periods prior to kicking (many old school forwards did it throw grass, pull up socks, tie shoelaces, continuously ask where mark is... etc).

I find the 30 second thing poor. If you have the 30 seconds and you then short pass the next guy should only get 15 seconds before play on.
The 30 seconds should be a full proper shot in my view.

 

[loki04]

Also one other thing on kicking technique.

If it works well for you, keep doing it.

If it doesn’t, drop it, or work on it.

Yep I think there is a general guideline to take into practice and from there you need to tweak it to the individual kicking. Most people have a natural swing on their kick left to right or right to left etc some of course kick gun barrel straight always. So this needs to also factor into their "aim".

Cloke at the end of his time kicking technique was so flawed it was not funny imo it got much worse then even in his younger days.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Just found this of him mate:



Interesting that the torp seemed to be the weapon of choice even when he played for vic 30m out dead in front opted for it.

Looks flat punts to me.

Wade did the torps always

 

[loki04]

I find the 30 second thing poor. If you have the 30 seconds and you then short pass the next guy should only get 15 seconds before play on.
The 30 seconds should be a full proper shot in my view.

So you would of been an advocate to introduce the rule back in the 70s, 80s and 90s where there was no limit but more a "general" feel from ump?

 

[loki04]

Looks flat punts to me.

Wade did the torps always

I saw a mix of torps and punts in Hudsons, but he definitely did some torps even on close in sets shots 1:35 in and 3:10 in were 2.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

So you would of been an advocate to introduce the rule back in the 70s, 80s and 90s where there was no limit but more a "general" feel from ump?

Pretty much.

Though going as a kid, never really realised the time wasting.
It’s funny once you know about it, or see the Lloyd grass clippings at Etihad (closed roof) you notice it and it’s bothersome.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I saw a mix of torps and punts in Hudsons, but he definitely did some torps even on close in sets shots.

You could be right at that.

As a kid playing junior footy I always shot for goal with a torpedo because it worked for me. But I wasn’t ever going to make it ofcourse. Kept it simple. It worked so you did.

Also too many players juggle the ball in their hands too much for my liking. Isn’t better to hold the ball exactly as you want it and keep it exact?
Carey and Dermie were notorious ball spinners so they counter that by their good kicking for goals.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

"In the olden days they could kick for goal"...

...and not have to run upwards of 15-16km in a single game both ways. Play more games in a season. Etc. etc. etc.

Have to say nostalgia tends to gloss over the losses, poor performances and ordinary patches even my favourite players had.

They go alright these days. Just needs to translate to on-field consistency.

 

[loki04]

"In the olden days they could kick for goal"...

...and not have to run upwards of 15-16km in a single game both ways. Play more games in a season. Etc. etc. etc.

Have to say nostalgia tends to gloss over the losses, poor performances and ordinary patches even my favourite players had.

They go alright these days. Just needs to translate to on-field consistency.

I wonder if the times players just full shank it if they took enough of their 30secs to calm the body before the kick aka Pendles miss from 30m.

I've seen the ump let players hit 30 secs so long as they have started their run up. Wonder how much those extra 10 or so secs help in accuracy for the fatigued kicks. Im sure some players hit 15 sec warning, panic and start their kick.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

I wonder if the times players just full shank it if they took enough of their 30secs to calm the body before the kick aka Pendles miss from 30m.

I've seen the ump let players hit 30 secs so long as they have started their run up. Wonder how much those extra 10 or so secs help in accuracy for the fatigued kicks. Im sure some players hit 15 sec warning panic and start their kick.

No doubt the extra 15 seconds helps. Can be the difference between blowing hard and composure. Lactic acid in the legs is the worst.

 

[loki04]

You could be right at that.

As a kid playing junior footy I always shot for goal with a torpedo because it worked for me. But I wasn’t ever going to make it ofcourse. Kept it simple. It worked so you did.

Also too many players juggle the ball in their hands too much for my liking. Isn’t better to hold the ball exactly as you want it and keep it exact?
Carey and Dermie were notorious ball spinners so they counter that by their good kicking for goals.

Imo the torp has its place but I wonder if its practised enough these days to be reliable, nothing better then seeing a well executed torp from long out.

 

[loki04]

No doubt the extra 15 seconds helps. Can be the difference between blowing hard and composure. Lactic acid in the legs is the worst.

Yeah definitely but I wonder how many of them actually think to take those full allotment of seconds up.

 

[sr36]

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/P/Peter_McKenna.html

874g 470b at 65%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/B/Bernie_Quinlan.html

817g 612b at 57%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jason_Dunstall.html

1254g 641b at 66%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/K/Kelvin_Templeton.html

593g 335b at 64%

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tony_Lockett.html

1360g 590b at 70% (69.7 to be exact)

I can’t say your POV is incorrect, but I doubt statisticians would publish numbers that were even a remote chance of being incorrect (Ron The Bear can probably speak on that). It’s completely against their perfectionist personalities, IMO. I never saw Peter McKenna kick a footy so I can only go on data and the memories of my dad. I know for a fact his memory ain’t what it used to be and his love for the likes of Carman and McKenna has only grown with time just as I’m sure my memories of Swanny, Leon and Dids will...

My assessment of where those champions of yesteryear are now is the midfield. That’s where the most skilful players spend the majority of their time in the modern game.

Take JDG as an example he’s roughly the same height as Plugger and taller than most of the greats that you’ve named. In a bygone era he’d be 10kg heavier and not expected to cover 12-15km per game. Despite that his conversion rate stacks up with past greats.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jordan_de_Goey.html

86g 50b at 63%

Bontempelli, Martin and Cripps are others that in bygone eras would have been FF’s and even now could kick 50-60 as permanent forwards. I also suspect that poor goal kicking from key forwards these days is due to the desire to have 195cm+ targets. A lot can go wrong from hand to foot when you’re that tall if you have even minor technical issues.

My overall assessment is that not much has changed in terms of individual talent it’s now in different areas of the field and clubs want to spread the load more. They’d rather have five blokes kicking a goal a game than one bloke kicking five because it’s less likely five blokes will have down games than one...

I think these stats give a bit of an indication, but don't really show the complete picture for a couple of reasons, thus the vibe test is all we can really go on.

a) No breakdown of set shot versus general play. Eg. My vibe tests suggests that Degoey is deadly when snapping or on the run, but middle of the road when it comes to set shots.
b) Where are the kicks taken from? In years gone by there were a lot more marks and frees inside 35 directly in front, because you didn't often have the hotspot defended by a pack of 6 flying for the same ball and defenders weren't able to get away with as much in the contest. Also more blokes can kick it from 50, therefore on average kicks are from further out and more are from an angle.
c) The amount of pressure has increased enormously with everybody having access to every game and replays and footy panel shows highlighting costly errors.

My vibe test suggests that set shot kicking in general has improved a bit, but not as much as the other skills of the game have. Past years had some guys who were more accurate than most of the current players, but in the past set shot kicking was mainly done by a few, who spent a lot of time practicing it, as it was one of their few responsibilities. These days, set shot kicking is spread out amongst the whole team due to the style of play changing and forwards have a whole heap more responsibilities and thus don't spend as much time practicing set shots.

The issue in the modern game is that there a fair few guys whose kicking skills are significantly worse at set shots than they are in general play, eg. Scott Pendlebury. I think most of these guys have technical flaws with their goal kicking set up, eg. running in an arc or pivoting on the balance leg like Jackcass mentioned or trying to have their body too straight and square like I suggested earlier.

 

[vicparksfinest]

Any training news?

 

[Ron The Bear]

I can’t say your POV is incorrect, but I doubt statisticians would publish numbers that were even a remote chance of being incorrect (Ron The Bear can probably speak on that).

Stats were first published regularly in Footy Week magazine in the mid-60's, an initiative of Harry Beitzel's. Stats-takers stood in the outer and recorded figures with paper and pencil. In the 1970's & 80's two Sunday papers published the stats, the Sunday Press and the Sunday Observer. Often, the stats were different between the two publications; one might be sourced from a media statistician and the other from the club.

Certainly, there wasn't the same rigour concerning accuracy that is applied today. A behind that came off hands and would be recorded as 'rushed' today, for example, might be ascribed to the kicker back then, and vice versa. There were no rules, just the recorder's interpretation.