Opinion Brian Cook - Carlton's rebuild still has a fair way to go

[chunkylover53]

The point is how Voss is going to go as coch is a big unknown, he could be great or he could be worse than Teague. That is a very big variable



Both Richmond and St Kilda were killed with injuries last year. You wouldn't expect that to happen again and they have proven with healthy lists they are top 8 sides.


The point is he hasn't been good for 2 years, that is a big sample size. Can he get over his injuries is the question, he may be able to but once again this is another big what if


No I never said your youngsters won't improve, I said for you to really improve as a team a couple of them will really have to step up. Jackson, Pickett & Rivers stepping up was a big reason for our improvement this year, you guys will need the same

We were smashed by injuries too.

Newman, Cunningham, Marchbank all did knees and barely played.

All of Fisher, Martin, McGovern and Williams missed big chunks and when they did play were severely underdone. Charlie Curnow only came back for the last 4 games. Cripps played hurt/shouldn't have played most weeks.

Not sure why everyone ignores our injuries last year, probably because our bigger names weren't out.

 

[Jack Green]

I am not here to pot shot your club....

But lets look back at saints and Carltons 2020 season...

2020 was a weird season with the corona virus. There was also those 16 minute quarters which lead to lower scoring games and also some close margins. Saints had their fair share of close games, some were wins, some were losses.

Saints finished 6th at the end of the season with a 10-7 record, beat the dogs in an elimination final and ended up 5th on the ladder after finals.

Carlton got 11th with a 7-10 record and 11th spot. only 2 of those wins were by over 10 points. A 52 point win vs the dogs and a 33 point win vs the suns. The other 5 wins were by 9 points or less. Yet some people and media were convinced that Carlton were going to make finals in 2021. I didn't.

Now lets bring up both teams 2021 season.

Saints were competitive in most games. Now saints fans complained about their draw how it was the hardest in the AFL. Well, here is the thing. This cuts both ways. Yeah saints had a hard draw. they had double up games vs the 2020 finalists vs the likes of Geelong, Richmond, Port and Eagles. All 4 made finals in 2020. Yet saints made the top 6 and were certain to get at least the 6th toughest draw stats wise. Equalization and all.

I wont be suprised if saints finish between 5th to 8th again in 2022 with an easier draw, less injuries, more consistency to their 2nd tier and younger players in their best 22 and hoping some close games ended up being wins.

Carlton posted and 8 win 14 loss record. Again, it was inflated partially because of those freo away games. You would assume carlton will improve next season with an easier draw, one year more of experience with the youth and a better coach.

Spot on - Noosa hub [ gold] and decent draw in 2020.
Hardest draw in 2021
Suspect now mid tier , will get something in between next year , Find out soon.

 

[Jack Green]

Voss took BL to the finals, then in his final year won 8 games. Teague won 8 games this year and you claim we should have kept him - yet Voss is forever doomed to be a sh*t coach? He was only sacked sacked as Brisbane thought they had Roos, whole thing was a disaster and plenty of BL fans admit he was stiff to get the sack when he did. So no, nobody really knows but your bias against him is obvious considering your stance on other coaches (eg Teague) whom had inferior performances as coach.



Would like to know why people will think two of the older lists in the league are due to improve. Richmond built their dynasty off Dusty who is 10kg lighter after a hectic kidney injury, Riewoldt is old, as is Cotchin etc. St Kilda showed arguably less than us last year (didn't we beat them by 10+ goals?) with an older list, but they'll improve? Are Hannebery and Hill going to come good? We pinched Freo's best young midfielder and beat them twice last year, but agreed they will improve.



Agreed it's a big loss. If Marchbank can get on the park it would certainly help but it does leave a big hole.



Lol people carry on like Cripps is 31. He's 26 and was the premium contested mid in the league basically from the age of 20. He's had 2 poor years, neither of which were helped by injury. If only supporters wrote off players from their own team so easily.



You assume our older players like Cripps are done whilst assuming once again our youngsters won't improve, you're just a talking 'worst case scenario' for Carlton.



Maybe.

Saints are 6th oldest and 6th in games for next year Ryder is a definite starter and important .[ bit of a worry]
Only are other guys over 30 are Hanneberry and Geary who IMO aren't in our best 22 now. Suspect we will field a list in the 5th -8th oldest list most weeks. Geelong however , is another matter.

 

[adammania9]

Well if you are going to state our 10-15 ranked are one of the poorest in the league, surely we can compare it to other sides.

But you keep going with your "champ" comments when you get challenged

And you chose the likely wooden spooner to compare to?

 

[Arr0w]

And you chose the likely wooden spooner to compare to?

I did also mention the so called 4 sides touted as bottom 4. As stated earlier, we must have a better quality either side of the 10-15th ranked player you stated

 

[adammania9]

I did also mention the so called 4 sides touted as bottom 4. As stated earlier, we must have a better quality either side of the 10-15th ranked player you stated

And I still don't get the relevance of any of that. I said Carlton's middle tier is underwhelming and holding them back from contention; the middle tiers of Collingwood, North etc is completely irrelevant. To say your list has a better make up than Collingwood right now isn't saying much

 

[Arr0w]

And I still don't get the relevance of any of that. I said Carlton's middle tier is underwhelming and holding them back from contention; the middle tiers of Collingwood, North etc is completely irrelevant. To say your list has a better make up than Collingwood right now isn't saying much

Not irrelevant at all.

You stated that our 10-15th ranked players is one of the poorest in the league. To make such a claim, you would have to share how you would rank our top 22-30 players, to determine if it would be a consensus. Then you would have to do the same for every other side, so we could make the comparisons to determine who has the poorest 10-15th ranked players. Then how do these players impact results from week to week

In the end, such an analysis is pointless as it is still merely opinion based, not factual

If you were analysing the concerns with our list and highlighted our thin spine, a new gameplan that could take time to bed in, a lack of genuine consistent pace at the coal-face, then they would be fair and reasonable concerns

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Ah the nature cycle of big footy, with each new premiership, a new crop of arrogant idiots high off the success of their team come walking in here like they, by the mere virtue of supporting the current champion, are some expert on football. Happens every years, we've had Richmond flogs replaced by Melbourne flogs as well as a few Bulldogs flogs who are floating along on the 2016 success mixed in with a bit of an inflated ego from a 2021 premiership flogging. It's the real geniuses in here.

 

[chunkylover53]

Ah the nature cycle of big footy, with each new premiership, a new crop of arrogant idiots high off the success of their team come walking in here like they, by the mere virtue of supporting the current champion, are some expert on football. Happens every years, we've had Richmond flogs replaced by Melbourne flogs as well as a few Bulldogs flogs who are floating along on the 2016 success mixed in with a bit of an inflated ego from a 2021 premiership flogging. It's the real geniuses in here.

"The team I happen to support won a flag, therefore I know more about footy than you".

One of the weirder AFL fan traits - is it the same with other sports?

 

[La Dispute]

Melbourne supporters were flogs before they won their flag to be fair.

 

[Gavin Excell]

There are really few excuses for Carlton not making the 8

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

There are really few excuses for Carlton not making the 8

I have them missing but should be more competitive. Finally they have recruited some decent players in Cerra and Hewett. The latter will be Vossy's favourite player.

I think Voss is a sound appointment. He also possesses the gravitas to keep the Committee at bay and will not tolerate players being slack or big headed. Everyone expects the players have been told to toughen up and to run both ways.

I expect Vossy's messages will be like-

*Stocker to be told - your role is in the back pocket.
*Dow - you will get a game when you prove you can play a role and run both ways.
*LOB - You are not getting a game unless you can tackle and win contested ball.
*McGovern - Get fit
*Cripps - must provide defensive pressure
*Williams - really we pay you that much?

etc

 

[Mr.X]

There are really few excuses for Carlton not making the 8

"No excuses" is one of the new motto's brought in by Voss and the refreshed coaching team.

Higher standards, the 1%'ers, team first, will to win are some of the new non-negotiables.

There's no more room for passengers at Carlton anymore, and the players are responding well to these principles.

It's an exciting time to be a Blues fan

 

[hawkman]

There are really few excuses for Carlton not making the 8

They will find some when they don't. Still don't think there is enough good players in their team for them to be a finals team

 

[hawkman]

Are opposition supporters allowed to comment in this thread, particularly if they're not as optimistic as Carlton supporters about the club's prospects in 2022?

Asking for a friend.

Can't see how they will lose a game

 

[Jeremias]

Are opposition supporters allowed to comment in this thread, particularly if they're not as optimistic as Carlton supporters about the club's prospects in 2022?

Asking for a friend.

Like clockwork, Fadgey.

 

[Wazzy36]

I feel like there are a lot of Carlton supporters very optimistic about Voss and his so called "no excuses" style with very little to go off of. Truthfully, Carlton have enough high-end talent to compete for the 8. So whilst they certainly could be a break out team I just don't know where all of this certainty comes from.

 

[Angak]

I worry about Carlton's midfield depth. The modern game is about field position and territory and if you can't regularly win the ball around stoppage you won't win games. The have a few guns in there but way too short on quality to make top 8.

 

[B4Bear]

"The team I happen to support won a flag, therefore I know more about footy than you".

One of the weirder AFL fan traits - is it the same with other sports?

Ah but see, my team has been s**t for a few years now; so I can recognise a fellow traveler; welcome aboard the not making the 8 in 2022 group.

 

[00Stinger]

"The team I happen to support won a flag, therefore I know more about footy than you".

One of the weirder AFL fan traits - is it the same with other sports?

care to point out where this has occurred in this thread?

Or is it just a bullshit argument on your behalf of not liking the fact that some people don't rate your list as much as you do?

 

[La Dispute]

Carlton list looks reasonable to my eyes.

Biggest issue and sore spot is talented players not playing to their ability through a combination of injury and form. Mukraking aside Martin and Williams are quality players who haven’t had a great start at the Blues. But you don’t just lose your talent.

Martin’s best games last year were against the eventual grand final teams, before he succumbed to injury.

Williams is a quality half back who hasn’t hit his straps yet.

Saad actually had a good first season, no idea why he gets lumped in with the underperformers?

We’re certainly paying a decent chunk of salary for these guys, but that’s balanced out by the bargain contracts Walsh and McKay are sitting on. Cerra also signed for unders.

The raw materials are there, it’s going to be a matter of how Voss co-ordinates both the coaching group and the players to get the most out of them.

 

[chunkylover53]

care to point out where this has occurred in this thread?

Or is it just a bullshit argument on your behalf of not liking the fact that some people don't rate your list as much as you do?

just re-read this post where you were caught making absolute s**t up.

the only reason i can think of for posting such condescending dross with more holes than swiss cheese is because your self-confidence is sky-high after winning a flag.

tell me again how stable richmond were in 2016.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Looking at Carlton from the outside everything suggests improvement.

How many teams have a top 5 defender, top 10 midfielder and top 5 forward to build their side around?
These guys are all under the age of 23. I'm unsure about Harry McKay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

26

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

, but Walsh and Weitering are clear leaders. It's an outstanding place to be

However, if I'm making a Carlton prediction it's they'll win less than 10 games and miss Finals, because that's what they do. I've seen them display positive signs before only for it to come to nothing. They are a club who don't deserve any faith. I'll trust you to do it, only after you've done it. Until then, I'm predicting the same thing I've been right about for 10 years, Carlton will not play Finals.

 

[Bostonian]

It's the oft injured players like Charlie Curnow

30

Charlie Curnow

Age

27

Ht

194cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.3

3star

K

9.7

4star

HB

3.6

3star

M

5.3

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.8

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.4

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.8

4star

, Jack Martin

21

Jack Martin

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

and Zac Williams go that will determine how well we go.

Curnow especially has that freakish x- factor talent and the ability to take over a game that we've sadly not seen enough of.

If he can get his body right and put in a decent season it could propel us into finals footy.

Big IF though with his history.

 

[freddy mercury]

Carlton list looks reasonable to my eyes.

Biggest issue and sore spot is talented players not playing to their ability through a combination of injury and form. Mukraking aside Martin and Williams are quality players who haven’t had a great start at the Blues. But you don’t just lose your talent.

Martin’s best games last year were against the eventual grand final teams, before he succumbed to injury.

Williams is a quality half back who hasn’t hit his straps yet.

Saad actually had a good first season, no idea why he gets lumped in with the underperformers?

We’re certainly paying a decent chunk of salary for these guys, but that’s balanced out by the bargain contracts Walsh and McKay are sitting on. Cerra also signed for unders.

The raw materials are there, it’s going to be a matter of how Voss co-ordinates both the coaching group and the players to get the most out of them.

Other than McKay, where are your goals coming from? Betts was the next best, no longer there and was in his mid 30s. After that it falls apart.