I suspect Hardwick recognised this edge in the league and deserves a lot of credit for funneling attacks through Martin, even when Lynch and Riewoldt were great targets. The disparity in 1v1 capacity was probably greater for Martin vs the cast Noidnadroj reeled off, than it was for the talls vs other sides talls. An exception perhaps was in the 2019 PF, where Lynch one out vs an old and isolated Taylor was preferred. And Martin that night had no coaches votes.
Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
- Thread starter adammania9
- Start date
- Tagged users None
I think the simple answer was if you stop the Richmond swarm and pressure then you completely stop Martin. Much like collingwood did in the 2018 prelim final where Martin could barely get a kick all night.
But as Chris Scott said… it’s very easy to understand what Richmond do, but it’s very difficult to stop it. I think within that statement is your answer.
Sides knew what Richmond were doing, it was just incredibly difficult to stop it at the time.
You stop Richmond’s defensive swarm, Martin tends to not have an impact. You cut off the head of the beast, then the rest falls.
I think you simplified it way too much,
what to think about is that Martin is such a classy ball user. he creates space where there is none (which I wish Taranto would do ) .
Not to mention he is nearly unbeatable 1 v 1 .
Not to mention he is a goal sneak.
Not to mention his GAME smarts.
Where do I stop?
Yawn
This is really astute observation by G Crazy.
If Richmond didn't apply pressure to opposition ball carriers and just let them waltz away with the ball then they would not have been able to create so many turnovers where they could drive the ball forward anywhere near Dusty and let's face it, he smacked just about every opponent's package in finals for 4 years.
So Dusty would have been standing around half forward like a stale bottle, watching the opposition pile on score after score.
That damn Richmond pressure. Without it we would all have never realised just how good Dusty actually is, and we'd have been fooled into thinking all the 35 touch per game circling around half back mids were the best in the business.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
- 5,999
- 20,646
- AFL Club
- Richmond
He's played against weak opposition during his prime and the Richmond fanboys know it.
Kyle Hartigan in the 2017 grannie & Jake Kolodjashnij in 2020?
The only time he played on quality opponents was in the 2019 grand final and de Boer kept him quiet for a quarter before Shaw took over and got plenty of the ball himself.
Game was over at halftime and Martin was given leeway to do as he wanted while GWS ran out of puff.
Martin got 22 contested possessions as a midfielder in the 2017 GFz. I didn’t know Hartigan was a midfielder.. did anyone tell Kyle?
And it’s nice of you to mention the 2019 GF. The game early was an arm wrestle and Richmond’s first goal came at the 24-minute mark … I’ll give you 5 guesses who kicked it
. Martin also kicked Richmond’s 4th goal at the 7-minute mark of the second with the game alive at 23-9.So of course it was a smashing, but Martin was Richmond’s best player from start to finish of that game.
Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
- 5,999
- 20,646
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Throughout 2017-2020 Geelong had anywhere from 6-8 x AA in their sides … players we’ve been informed are worthy of every AA gong that came their way - Stewart, Selwood, Blicavs, Hawkins, Danger, Guthrie, Taylor, Kelly, Ablett, Mackie. Way more than Richmond ever had.
Geelong’s defence :
2017: 6th
2018: 1st
2019: 1st
2020: 4th
Richmond’s defence was never #1 for points against in any season from 2017-20.
So why people keep screaming ‘weak era’ when Geelong was absolutely awash with AA’s and multiple ones at that is strange. They were statistically the best defence over 4-years.
Yet despite all these AA’s (way more than any other team) Geelong couldn’t salute for a flag in that ‘weak’ era. And Danger couldn’t dominate these ‘weak’ teams like Martin did. Greene and GAJ etc… couldn’t dominate them either.
What seems to be the difference in September? I just can’t seem to put my finger on it.
Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Geelong had a reasonaly good top end 2019-2020 and it starkly dropped off after that. 2016-2018 let's face it - Selwood, Dangerfield and Hawkins carried some mediocre sides.
The issue in 2019-2020 as others finally caught up was that Dangerfield and Selwood, while very good, were not their 2016/2017 brilliant selves. Duncan and Guthrie peaked in those latter years. Guthrie in particular took a long time to realise his potential.
Kelly we had one brilliant season (2019) but it was before Guthrie had his (2020), at which point Kelly was gone and we were still a good midfielder short. Still too much left to Selwood and Dangerfield, who after carrying us all year were expected to match the feat in finals. It really wasn't until 2022 that this was rectified.
As far as the defence it was definitely the pick of the bunch from the sides Richmond faced, but that is a low bar. Stewart brilliant, Tuohy a good rebounder although neither you could call close to lockdown specialists. Bews a handy enough back pocket. Kolo simply too cumbersome for finals, although he had his moments. Taylor and Henderson battled manfully - particularly Taylor for his age - but were still well past their peak physical years. In those frenetic finals with little protection, there were times they were exposed. J.Henry peaked even later and then had the injury issues.
Geelong though had weak forward lines and in finals that meant easy double team opportunities against Hawkins. If we won the midfield battle, great - if we didn't, we were quickly found out. You could not call it more than a average to decent finals side, and that was the greatest foe Richmond faced.
Geelong were beaten by a better team, as all of those sides were, in which players 7-22 especially worked as a far more cohesive and damaging unit than their equivalents in the teams they faced.
You think Richmond were fairly poor and Martin alone carried them.
We will always differ in this basic premise.
Noidnadroj Meteoric Rise
Sadly we didn't get any takers on this.
It would've been interesting to see if you tried to upscale opposition ratings. Avoiding it is telling but a far more predictable and less entertaining outcome.
I wanted to see a 10/10 next to Kolo and Tuohy for lockdown capacity on mediums/smalls.
Will be back with Dimma next year playing for the Gold Coast.
Won’t remain a one club player sorry Cleansweep17
Won’t remain a one club player sorry Cleansweep17
Just saw this. We sadly didn't get any takers on the topic proposed. Seems in the end they thought my summation was spot on.
As for Dusty, he scored a couple of goals, had some other nice moments and then a bunch of mistakes/sloppy disposals from his 16. Touched it once in that frenetic last quarter I think. A couple more nice touches and he could've taken them home.
56.3% disposal efficiency and it didn't feel like he went for anything super high degree difficulty.
Even with Prestia down early, Dusty didn't move to midfield. That was where he played his best footy in the back end of 2023. Petrol tickets running out or just coming in a bit underdone?
- Mar 16, 2002
- 21,726
- 13,437
- AFL Club
- Richmond
- Other Teams
- Richmond
Dusty was back from injury…
He still found plenty of dangerous positions before fading. Seemed half a second off the pace at times. Reminded me of Danger's slow start to 2023 where it clicked into gear by round 4.
Near the end it's very difficult to keep those reflexes and slickness in high intensity pace. At times even Ablett looked slow once he got to about 34.
You should have stopped before the classy ball user joke.
He really isnt.
In fact that whole false statement "classy ball user who creates space where there is none" is more Pendles that Martin.
Pendles is a gun. no doubt. You don't watch Dusty
Only 1 solitary touch for Dusty in the last quarter when the game was on the line.
He is terrific when his team are up and about and have a decent lead in those 4th quarters but you rarely ever see him doing much when his side are down and out.
He is terrific when his team are up and about and have a decent lead in those 4th quarters but you rarely ever see him doing much when his side are down and out.
I have watched Dusty and even more so since this debate had begun.
I am in no doubt he is/was a great player and can do some unbelievable acts on the field (and at times off the field
)Ball use however is not one of his strongest assets.
Thats ok though, every player has deficiencies.
Pendles is one of the best users of the ball to ever play the game but even he will admit, his set shot kicking is not one of his strong points.
No player is perfect, most will have good points and bad.
- Dec 9, 2015
- 5,739
- 10,162
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
I thought he was off injured he was that invisible
Played one season too many
On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Tandy
Norm Smith Medallist
What were Dusty's stats in every final he's played
You do realize you are about to be bombarded with a list of the most useless stats you can imagine.
Also they will be amazing because any stat that doesn't suit the desired narrative will not make the cut.
Ball use is what sets him apart from so many. Forget last night he looked well short of a run, but after watching him for 15 years, he is one of the best uses of the ball that I have ever seen by foot. Pendlebury by hand sure, but not a patch on Martin by foot. He has kicked a ridiculous goals from every angle, that goal last night easy as you like. Some of his foot passing especially over 50 odd metres takes me back to the old drop kick days. Very few even try what he does.I have watched Dusty and even more so since this debate had begun.
I am in no doubt he is/was a great player and can do some unbelievable acts on the field (and at times off the field
Ball use however is not one of his strongest assets.
Thats ok though, every player has deficiencies.
Pendles is one of the best users of the ball to ever play the game but even he will admit, his set shot kicking is not one of his strong points.
No player is perfect, most will have good points and bad.
He can and does regularly spray one, usually going for the impossible or trying to kick the leather of it, but give me the outrageous over the safe any day.
22 disposals, 1 assist & 1.6 goals from 16 finals.
Paul Chapman:
18 disposals, 0.5 assists & 1.6 goals from 22 finals.
Toby Greene:
18 disposals, 0.7 assists, 1.8 goals from 14 finals.
And that is where you lost me.
I don't have the stats on hand, I am sure someone would (though I would be skeptical of their accuracy if supplied by a select few).
Even though Pendles would have three times the disposals of Martin, I would be shocked, if his DE was not better.
Dare I drop the name, though….. isn’t that what gets the criticism for Patrick Dangerfield?
For all the s**t he cops, Dangerfield thumps some absolutely fantastic kicks. He is as penetrating as any elite midfielder in the last 15 years when he is on the run.
But because he sprays some of them - badly - he rightly has that asterisk next to his kicking appraisal.
I’m not saying he can perform the sort of precision kicks that Martin can that’s not the point I’m trying to make, I’m just saying that when you’re making an appraisal of someone’s skills, you can’t just look at what their best is, you need to weigh it against their worst as well.
