Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[Mr Meow]

Call me crazy but I’d rather an AA, Gary Ayers, NS in a season over a Brownlow, MVP or Coaches award.

Btw all those Brownlow medalists and Danger in 2017 got more Brownlow votes in a season than GAJ ever did (Neale on Average votes). Not so sure about “not much competition”. Lucky Gary didn’t peak in the late 2010s might not have won a Brownlow at all.

Good thing that once again it is ONLY Richmond supporters who would take a player having a good season and being the best finals player over the undisputed best player in the comp/best rated seasons having a handful of fantastic finals series but not winning the one award available on the last day (Norm Smith) - and us never knowing about best finals player as the award didn't exist.

And we know why it is ONLY Richmond supporters. It's called a game of "reveal your bias". Dusty was the best player in the comp one year and stepped up superbly in two other finals series, and didn't for five others. It's a great record but there's a season he's not even getting brought up except to dismiss in the team of the century thread. Once again ONLY Richmond supporters can even argue his case in that side, let alone being the best of all time.

 

[nut]

You should probably use some other stats or arguements to prove your point.
If im understanding most tigers position in this forum its that martin is the GOAT yeah?
That being the case, a stats comparison with a similar player who probably isnt in the top 100 of all time ( no disrespect cats fans, love chappy) where he barely shades him in most categories doesnt bode well for your arguments.

For the record,
2019 picketts GF performance was more inpressive than martins
Debut
Played midfield/wing
Same possies
1 goal
3rd? Most coaches votes i believe.

Who fed Pickett “that” goal?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Good thing that once again it is ONLY Richmond supporters who would take a player having a good season and being the best finals player over the undisputed best player in the comp/best rated seasons having a handful of fantastic finals series but not winning the one award available on the last day (Norm Smith) - and us never knowing about best finals player as the award didn't exist.

And we know why it is ONLY Richmond supporters. It's called a game of "reveal your bias". Dusty was the best player in the comp one year and stepped up superbly in two other finals series, and didn't for five others. It's a great record but there's a season he's not even getting brought up except to dismiss in the team of the century thread. Once again ONLY Richmond supporters can even argue his case in that side, let alone being the best of all time.

Those awards are awarded ONLY FOR THE H&A SEASON. Stop confusing yourself. They are not for the best player in the comp as they EXCLUDE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE SEASON. So yeah give me the finals awards and flags over H&A crap anyday.

 

[Mr Meow]

Being recognised by all of the league's coaches, players and umpires as being the best player in the comp in a premiership year, the coaches and players in another premiership year, and then your own coaches for the club B&Fs in flag years 100% of the time (2007 and 2009 for GAJ) - anyone trying to sell that as less than Martin's 2019 or 2020 is in absolute la la land.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

I love this thread so much. It’s so fun.
Thank you to all contributors.

I miss Falcon though.
Wonder what he’s up to these days.

 

[nut]

Those awards are awarded ONLY FOR THE H&A SEASON. Stop confusing yourself. They are not for the best player in the comp as they EXCLUDE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE SEASON. So yeah give me the finals awards and flags over H&A crap anyday.

Yep, there is the home and away … which is basically your qualifying season.
And then there is the season proper which is the Finals….

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Being recognised by all of the league's coaches, players and umpires as being the best player in the comp in a premiership year, the coaches and players in another premiership year, and then your own coaches for the club B&Fs in flag years 100% of the time (2007 and 2009 for GAJ) - anyone trying to sell that as less than Martin's 2019 or 2020 is in absolute la la land.

You’ve got to be joking right?

Imagine not wanting to be the best in finals, now I’ve heard it all.

 

[Mr Meow]

Those awards are awarded ONLY FOR THE H&A SEASON. Stop confusing yourself. They are not for the best player in the comp as they EXCLUDE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE SEASON. So yeah give me the finals awards and flags over H&A crap anyday.

Oops your bias is showing.

I'm not sure where to continue because things like context and fair playing fields evade you. The format you're suggesting would limit the league's best player to being someone from the premiers each year. So who would we pick from 2016 - Bont (very good but nowehere near current day Bont) over Dangerfield? Kane Cornes from 2004 instead of Judd? The whole notion is ludicrous, especially when the crux of your argument is Ayres awards (the ones that look at full finals series and not one off games) which none of these players before 2016 could even win. Bizarre. Try watching the matches. It might be an enlightening exercise for you.

 

[Mr Meow]

You’ve got to be joking right?

Imagine not wanting to be the best in finals, now I’ve heard it all.

We don't have the Ayres awards for best finals players before 2016, I can only assure you GAJ's levels didn't drop at all and he was the undisputed best player each year - so do the maths. He didn't win BOG every H&A game either.

What about Brownlow/league MVP players who are in good but not great finals sides? Or don't even make finals? You're almost precluded from votes unless you put in a legendary Ablett losing grand final performance. So the criteria is that you have to be in the best side in the comp, and even better if they are far better than the oppositon. So many variables. Just being declared the best player in the comp doesn't have these. And Martin did it once. He was never top 3 in any of them again except for the Brownlow in 2016.

At this point I doubt you even watched the Geelong finals from that era. We had 4 or 5 giving 9/10 performances most weeks. Martin giving 9/10s while others (on average) are 7.5s doesn't suddenly elevate his performances over the previous era. That's before we even get to the opposition as well. Chalk and cheese.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Yep, there is the home and away … which is basically your qualifying season.
And then there is the season proper which is the Finals….

Like how many times do we hear players say, “the Brownlow and AA are great but I’m focusing on finals now”. The players don’t give a s**t about H&A compared to finals.

Every player and I mean every player would give all their H&A awards for a flag especially being the best player for all of them.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Who fed Pickett “that” goal?

Who fed Dusty that pass?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

We don't have the Ayres awards for best finals players before 2016, I can only assure you GAJ's levels didn't drop at all and he was the undisputed best player each year - so do the maths. He didn't win BOG every H&A game either.

At this point I doubt you even watched the Geelong finals from that era. We had 4 or 5 giving 9/10 performances most weeks. Martin giving 9/10s while others (on average) are 7.5s doesn't suddenly elevate his performances over the previous era. That's before we even get to the opposition as well. Chalk and cheese.

Again with this, even if the award wasn’t around every player would want to be considered the best player of the finals series over any H&A award. It’s that prestigious.

 

[Mr Meow]

I love this thread so much. It’s so fun.
Thank you to all contributors.

I miss Falcon though.
Wonder what he’s up to these days.

I've got a feeling he's still watching from the heavens.

We have STRONGandBALD though, who is a totally different guy, who made his first BF account recently and then lived in this thread.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I've got a feeling he's still watching from the heavens.

We have STRONGandBALD though, who is a totally different guy, who made his first BF account recently and then lived in this thread.

Yep I'm 100% convinced Strong and Bald just magically appeared from nowhere, aren't we lucky?

 

[Mr Meow]

Again with this, even if the award wasn’t around every player would want to be considered the best player of the finals series over any H&A award. It’s that prestigious.

Dusty's status would be higher if he replaced two Norm Smith's (but was still great in those two grand finals, let's say Houli pipped him one year and Riewoldt another) with two years getting both Brownlow + Coaches Association awards in premiership years (to go with his 2017 clean up). I don't see how that's even up for debate.

Neutrals would genuinely have a tough choice of GAJ vs Martin then.

The notion you are suggesting would only make sense if your H&A was excellent but then finals were poor. See Dangerfield 2019 - probably BOG or second BOG in the QF but then disappointing in the next two. There was no situation where that ever applied to GAJ. Even in finals we were outclassed in 2007-2010, he was a lone hand trying to will us over the line and easily our best. A situation you could NEVER say about Dusty.

 

[Mr Meow]

This Falcon guy has melted your brain and I haven’t even seen him post anything. Like what?

I know right?! Bizarrely people were getting reported for even mentioning him! And given he's not here, that doesn't even make sense.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

I know right?! Bizarrely people were getting reported for even mentioning him! And given he's not here, that doesn't even make sense.

Idk, all I know is I love all your players and you still give me s**t. It’s getting annoying.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Idk, all I know is I love all your players and you still give me s**t. It’s getting annoying.

Nobody is giving you s**t. They’re talking about Falcon, who is definitely not you, right?

 

[Mr Meow]

Idk, all I know is I love all your players and you still give me s**t. It’s getting annoying.

You can't say you love them but that they are H&A kings only. I could see how someone says that about Dangerfield because his finals against Richmond were poor. He was probably top 3 in most of our and some of Adelaide's other ones, but regardless that's 3 big games he underperformed in.

There's zero logic in using it to bat GAJ or our other few top stars from the previous era, that's all.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

You can't say you love them but that they are H&A kings only. I could see how someone says that about Dangerfield because his finals against Richmond were poor. He was probably top 3 in most of our and some of Adelaide's other ones, but regardless that's 3 big games he underperformed in.

There's zero logic in using it to bat GAJ or our other few top stars from the previous era, that's all.

How many times do I have to call GAJ a stellar finals player for you to get I rate him as a finals player and not a H&A King? Like for real.

I haven’t even said that about Danger either. Quote me.

 

[Mr Meow]

How many times do I have to call GAJ a stellar finals player for you to get I rate him as a finals player and not a H&A King? Like for real.

I haven’t even said that about Danger either. Quote me.

"I'd rather finals than H&A, thanks" makes that very inference.

In reality GAJ only had one season where his side dominated multiple finals, 2007 - in which he'd take home the Ayres award based on his first two finals even with a pedestrian GF in the landslide. Prime time Gaz in that Richmond side that dominated: 3 finals in 2017, 2 finals in 2019 and 3 finals in 2020 - would've cleaned up and I don't see how that's up for debate. Martin back in 2007-2010 would've been great to watch and it's an era he would've fit with better. He'd certainly have been involved in more close games and against tougher sides/better direct opponents.

I do agree that relative to his era, in finals Martin was a class above. And that's why he's a champion. Just not THE champion.

 

[Toppa]

Yep if Chappy had a down day in 2009, St Kilda take home the flag (would've been well deserved too) and perhaps with that confidence they win a tight one a year later to go back to back.

He was absolutely supreme across the 2007 finals series too, but with two of them being those avalanche games I've sometimes added as a little disclaimer to Martin's grand finals, they don't quite hit the same on an individual level - the story of those thrashings is always team domination. 2008 unfortunately he did that hammy early in the 2008 QF and should probably not have returned for the grand final - he was cooked. 2009 he'd have pushed for best finals player again but GAJ probably edged it overall.

The fact that he and a few others stepped up to a level around the best player of their generation in Ablett speaks volumes about how good they were. But next to a "superstar", others will end up somewhat underrated to neutrals at least.

It's the same as many of those Saints midfielders - perhaps N.Riewoldt being "the man" somewhat downplayed praise of Hayes, Goddard, Dal Santo and Montagna. But as a group they essentially matched those loaded Cats and Pies midfields some years. Then take away the flags, going down twice to two excellent sides - and people forget.

Yeah that period had some absolutely loaded teams. If not for a bit of luck, that saints team could have gone into 2011 chasing a 3 pest. The fact they didnt get one stings.

Its the biggest reason i personally dont rate the richmond team as high as the other dynasties of the past 15 years. Quality of opposition counts and my opinion is that the crows/Giants and that particular 2020 cats team just werent as good as the teams brisbane went thru, or that 9-11 period.

Martin is an incredible player, but outside of his 2020 GF where i think he swung the game when it mattered, the other 2 were good enough to win the NS but they could have quite easily gone to others and noone would have had an issue with it.

 

[Noidnadroj]

We're so close. Now you just have to exclude the torn hammy Chappy final and the sub-vest Chappy final. The '08 grand final he played prematurely from that injury and was not good, so there's your equivalent to Martin working through a niggle in the '18 PF. And we are looking at Geelong vs Richmond finals, Chappy was okay at Essendon but a year further on than Martin's last final - and you could already notice the decreased output for Martin in that - it happens to most forward focussed players in finals (unless your team is dominant) when you're approaching or at mid 30s. See GAJ in the finals Geelong were steam rolled in when he was 35-36.

You say there's a massive difference. Martin did his damage forward of centre, especially after 2017. For those metrics they're not miles apart at all. Not once you account for quality of opposition and that the Geelong gameplan utilised a split of two elite forward flankers who rotated through mids, rather than Richmond isolating one (with an extra bully around the ball further up the field).

We obviously didn't have Ayres awards but it would've been a classic vote stealing scenario each year. Chappy would've gone really close 2007 and 2009 but had the little factor of GAJ as competition. Bartel's record was immaculate too, Johnson's perhaps less consistent but he had a handful of games he tore opposition apart and got BOG. Scarlett would round out the truly top end finals performers from that side. But because (let's set a 9 final/2 GF minimum) GAJ, Bartel, Chapman, Johnson and Scarlett > Martin, Cotchin, Prestia, J.Riewoldt and Houli - and there were more top end opposition individual performances - no one player would clean up as significantly, I expect. Doesn't diminish any of the Geelong individuals as finals performers. The latter group meanwhile will be underrated except for Martin.

You’re all over the place. Are we comparing all finals versus all finals as that’s what the AFL stats will say forever and a day (that’s why you said to not adjust the 2020 finals, remember ?) … or are we now removing a bunch of Chappy’s games and keeping all Martin’s in … but still making no allowance for the 2020 finals, have I got that right?

Bottom line is Martin was a dominant midfielder at various stages throughout his finals … (BOG in QF v Geelong without a goal. BOG versus Saints in 2020 SF with 1 x goal. BOG versus Hawks in 2018 QF with 1 goal. BOG in 2017 GF with 29 touches and 22 contested possessions and 2 goals… plus many other patches of midfield dominance)…

and despite all of this time when dominant in the midfield, he still managed to contribute to 19% of Richmond’s scores compared to Chappy contributing to 13% of Geelong’s scores, with 2.8 goals and goal assists v 2.2 for Chappy. Even though a Chappy played 80% forward versus 30% for Martin.

Just think about that. Martin contributed to 19% of Richmond scores versus 13% for Chapman, whilst Martin spent 30% of time forward versus 80% for Chapman.

But Meow Meow believes Chapman and Martin’s finals exploits are almost identical.

I know you’re tying yourself in knots with talk of teammates and opposition and any number of excuses as to why Chapman’s numbers are so inferior. …. but there’s a reason why Martin’s regarded as one of the very greatest finals player of all time and Chappy isn’t … the numbers paint a very clear picture.

Ps I agree that Chappy was still an excellent finals players.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Toppa]

Who fed Pickett “that” goal?

Oh wow...

So nobody 'fed' martin any of his goals?

the 'feed' you speak of, was after pickett hit martin on the lead and martin passed it back because he worked into space and earnt the better option.

The pickett to martin for his 2nd doesnt count?
He rucked, rovered, and kicked to himself inside the 50 did he?

Jroo kicked to him from a fwd half turnover for his 1st
2nd one defender got a bad bounce and he pounced
3rd rioli handballed him and he snapped truly
4th was like his 2nd. Shaw attacked the ball, over ran it and he capitalised again

 

[STRONGandBALD]

"I'd rather finals than H&A, thanks" makes that very inference.

In reality GAJ only had one season where his side dominated multiple finals, 2007 - in which he'd take home the Ayres award based on his first two finals even with a pedestrian GF in the landslide. Prime time Gaz in that Richmond side that dominated: 3 finals in 2017, 2 finals in 2019 and 3 finals in 2020 - would've cleaned up and I don't see how that's up for debate. Martin back in 2007-2010 would've been great to watch and it's an era he would've fit with better. He'd certainly have been involved in more close games and against tougher sides/better direct opponents.

I do agree that relative to his era, in finals Martin was a class above. And that's why he's a champion. Just not THE champion.

Wow, you think just saying I prefer finals over H&A means I’m taking a pot shot at Ablett. No wonder you’ve been so worked up.

A LOT of people think finals is more important than H&A and they don’t hate Ablett sorry to break it to you.