Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[Mr Meow]

Do you actually even believe what you write?

My first lot of stats included EVERY SINGLE FINAL both of them played (for Cats). AND I removed Chapman’s injury affected game where he played 53% of game time, and left in Martin’s injury affected PF. AND I took out Chapman’s final where he was the sub.

You mention cherry picking stats … you had disposals, goals and goal assists … that’s it. Hardly fair on the bloke spending loads more time midfield. So I added contested possessions, inside 50’s and clearances … you know, those pesky midfield stats.

How do you think the stats for EVERY single final they’ve played compare, considering I’ve kindly removed a couple that would greatly bring down Chappy’s averages?



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I read ALL FINALS and a wall of text. Apologies if ALL FINALS is what I took out of the post.

Then I scanned down and you were doing dynasty comparisons again so forgive me if I'm missing what your point was, when I performed the same analysis on Chapman 2007-2011 (13 finals) vs Martin 2017-2022 (13 finals), then a 10 year period of finals at the same age for both. I think our numbers are different because of the 25% multiplier in 2020, which I'm still yet to see anybody but Richmond fans use for games that year. So we can agree to disagree on whether manipulating the data is the best thing to do.

Chapman is basically never mentioned in GOAT finals players yet his performances and numbers were remarkably close to Martin in the key areas everyone raves about, he was almost always in our best few players and shared half of those roaming flanker destroyer duties with SJ, whereas with Richmond Martin was THE guy in that role (throw an extra foot soldier in there to get the best out of him, up the field). Doesn't mean SJ or Chapman performed significantly worse in kind of similar roles. Oh and they played against much better teams.

I get that you're not happy Martin isn't in fact in a league of his own for his career and finals averages for possessions, goals and assists as far as elite forward/mids. 3 finals series Martin was fantastic. 5 he was okay. One overall season was incredible. A handful of others were very good. Great player. On a tier below the very best this century, let alone of all time.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

I read ALL FINALS and a wall of text. Apologies if ALL FINALS is what I took out of the post.

Then I scanned down and you were doing dynasty comparisons again so forgive me if I'm missing what your point was, when I performed the same analysis on Chapman 2007-2011 (13 finals) vs Martin 2017-2022 (13 finals), then a 10 year period of finals at the same age for both. I think our numbers are different because of the 25% multiplier in 2020, which I'm still yet to see anybody but Richmond fans use for games that year. So we can agree to disagree on whether manipulating the data is the best thing to do.

Chapman is basically never mentioned in GOAT finals players yet his performances and numbers were remarkably close to Martin in the key areas everyone raves about, he was almost always in our best few players and shared half of those roaming flanker destroyer duties with SJ, whereas with Richmond Martin was THE guy in that role (throw an extra foot soldier in there to get the best out of him, up the field). Doesn't mean SJ or Chapman performed significantly worse in kind of similar roles. Oh and they played against much better teams.

I get that you're not happy Martin isn't in fact in a league of his own for his career and finals averages for possessions, goals and assists as far as elite forward/mids. 3 finals series Martin was fantastic. 5 he was okay. One overall season was incredible. A handful of others were very good. Great player. On a tier below the very best this century, let alone of all time.

The record books will say he is in a league of his own. That’s all that matters.

Besides your stats aren’t taking into account influence on games. That’s what the awards are based on. Chapman, GAJ and Johnson don’t make the cut in finals sorry.

 

[Toppa]

Fine, let's just do all finals until Chapman was at the same age Martin was in his last final (31 years old). The first half Chapman hammy game can be included (it does induce a hefty hit you're right as he barely touched the ball) but his cameo as a sub in the Freo '13 final would be taking it to absurd levels.

Finals
Chapman finals (2004-2013 inclusive - 10 year period): 18 games at 20.0 disposals, 1.8 goals and 0.6 goal assists (2.4 goal contributions) per game

Martin finals (2013-2022 inclusive - 10 year period): 16 games at 21.9 disposals, 1.7 goals and 1.1 goal assists (2.8 goal contributions) per game

Overall (H&A + finals)
2007-2011 Chapman: 24.3 disposals, 1.4 goals and 0.8 goal assists (2.2 goal contributions) per game
2017-2021 Martin: 25.2 disposals, 1.3 goals and 1.0 goal assists (2.3 goal contributions) per game

If Martin plays another final this year we can use it and Chapman's 2014.

Martin's main point of difference seems to be finals assists, but he did mostly have J.Riewoldt and T.Lynch in their prime. Chapman for tall timber had Mooney, baby Hawkins and Podsiadly. And you had assist machine SJ on the other flank dishing them out like a machine gun.

That almost reads like if the Ayres medal was around in chappy's day he may have won a few .
Loved chappy as a player. Superstar

 

[Toppa]

Cause they’ve never been the best player in a single season.

Maybe I should’ve said “mostly” games played.

I reckon rob harvey and adam goodes were twice each.
Or, twice as often as martin was

 

[Toppa]

Ok … I don’t quite trust your stats, so here they are. For the sake of fairness I’ve completely removed Chapman’s injury affected game and I’ve left Martin’s in. I’ve also completely removed Chapman’s game when he was sub. And I’ve increased Martin’s 2020 numbers by 25%.

ALL FINALS played by Chapman for Geelong (minus injury game and sub game). ALL FINALS played by Martin including injury game. And I’ve added some stats as we know Martin played a lot more midfield than Chappy:

Disposals:
Martin 23.1
Chapman 20.1

Inside 50’s:
Martin 5.1
Chapman 4.4

Clearances:
Martin 3.9
Chapman 2.3

Contested possessions:
Martin 12.2
Chapman 6.8

Contested Marks:
Martin 0.75
Chapman 0.5

Goals:
Martin 1.7
Chapman 1.8

Goal Assists
Martin 1.2
Chapman 0.6

So from the stats it’s pretty obvious Martin had a greater time spent in midfield. And Chappy was clearly a much more uncontested player. But Martin still managed to have more impact on the scoreboard than Chapman (Geelong was also a team who played a game style involving loads more possessions and played in a higher scoring era but we won’t account for that)….

Here are their finals from 2007-2011 for Chappy and 2017-20 for Martin. Both at their peak and in their dynasty period:

Disposals:
Martin 23.8
Chapman 21.8

Inside 50’s:
Martin 5.5
Chapman 4.4

Clearances:
Martin 4.7
Chapman 2.2

CP:
Martin 13.6
Chapman 7.1

Contested marks:
Martin : 1.0
Chapman : 0.6

Goals:
Martin : 2.2
Chapman: 1.8

Goal Assist:
Martin 1.3
Chapman : 0.8


So across both sets of stats Martin easily out points Chappy in midfield related stats … CP’s, I50’s, disposals and clearances.

And despite all this, he still easily had more scoreboard impact.

And as mentioned, I kindly removed Chappy’s injured game and sub game.

So you said it’s unbelievably close …
if you massage numbers and leave out midfield related impact it is …. but when presented the entire picture it isn’t really all that close.

Having said that, Chappy was an excellent finals player, it’s just that Martin was next level.




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You should probably use some other stats or arguements to prove your point.
If im understanding most tigers position in this forum its that martin is the GOAT yeah?
That being the case, a stats comparison with a similar player who probably isnt in the top 100 of all time ( no disrespect cats fans, love chappy) where he barely shades him in most categories doesnt bode well for your arguments.

For the record,
2019 picketts GF performance was more inpressive than martins
Debut
Played midfield/wing
Same possies
1 goal
3rd? Most coaches votes i believe.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I read ALL FINALS and a wall of text. Apologies if ALL FINALS is what I took out of the post.

Then I scanned down and you were doing dynasty comparisons again so forgive me if I'm missing what your point was, when I performed the same analysis on Chapman 2007-2011 (13 finals) vs Martin 2017-2022 (13 finals), then a 10 year period of finals at the same age for both. I think our numbers are different because of the 25% multiplier in 2020, which I'm still yet to see anybody but Richmond fans use for games that year. So we can agree to disagree on whether manipulating the data is the best thing to do.

Chapman is basically never mentioned in GOAT finals players yet his performances and numbers were remarkably close to Martin in the key areas everyone raves about, he was almost always in our best few players and shared half of those roaming flanker destroyer duties with SJ, whereas with Richmond Martin was THE guy in that role (throw an extra foot soldier in there to get the best out of him, up the field). Doesn't mean SJ or Chapman performed significantly worse in kind of similar roles. Oh and they played against much better teams.

I get that you're not happy Martin isn't in fact in a league of his own for his career and finals averages for possessions, goals and assists as far as elite forward/mids. 3 finals series Martin was fantastic. 5 he was okay. One overall season was incredible. A handful of others were very good. Great player. On a tier below the very best this century, let alone of all time.

You said unequivocally Chappy’s stats were spookily close to Martin’s in apparently ‘all’ the key areas anyone cares about… which of course being an almost permanent forward you’ve highlighted those as forward specific stats. And I appreciate you not wanting to allow a 25% loading for 2020. So here we go … in 25-years when you tell your grandkids how Chappy was almost on a par with Martin for finals performances, and your grandkids look up the stats to compare, this is what Chapman’s 20 x finals for the Cats looks like against Martin’s 16 x finals for Richmond.

Disposals:
Martin 22.00
Chappy 18.95

A 16% edge to Martin.

Inside 50’s:
Martin 4.69
Chappy 4.05

Again, a 16% edge to Martin.

Clearances:

Martin 3.69
Chapman 2.05

An 80% gap here. Outlines the proportion of time spent in midfield by the respective players.

Contested Possessions
Martin 11.75
Chappy 6.40

An 84% edge. This one surprised me as the impression I think most of us have of Chappy is a very compative and contested bull, when in reality he was probably more of a high quality finisher kicking goals from handball receives and smart leads. It belies previous narratives in this thread of Martin being on the end of Richmond’s good work and getting easy goals, when it’s clear that was very much Chappy’s role at the Cats, and he did it very well with great finishing skills.

Goals
Martin 1.63
Chappy 1.65

Basically dead heat.

Goal assist
Martin 1.19
Chappy 0.55

Martin more than doubled his goal assists in finals, which was surprising also given Geelong were outstanding at sharing the goals around. But Chappy’s number of 0.55 is still pretty strong, it’s just that 1.19 is elite.

Goals + Goal assists
Martin 2.82
Chappy 2.20

So Martin was directly responsible for ‘goals’ worth an average of 16.92 points per game. Chappy 13.2.

Richmond’s average score in finals was 86.88. Geelong’s was 99.29.

So as a percentage of team score it was :

Martin 19.5%
Chappy 13.3%


Im not sure of Chappy’s mid-fwd split, but with Selwood, Bartel, GAJ, Kelly, Ling etc… and based on low clearance and CP numbers, from my memory of seeing him play it was probably 20% midfield at the most…. but Cats fans would know better than me.

Martin’s overall would have probably been ballpark 70-30 across all finals, as he was predominantly midfield in most finals 2013/14/15/17/18, before being more mid-fwd beyond that.

So there you are. Raw stats as you requested. No 25% loading, no cherry picking specific years… just the raw stats our grandchildren will use to compare Martin v Chappy as finals players.

I don’t think they’ll be overly confused as to who the better finals player was.



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[Noidnadroj]

You should probably use some other stats or arguements to prove your point.
If im understanding most tigers position in this forum its that martin is the GOAT yeah?
That being the case, a stats comparison with a similar player who probably isnt in the top 100 of all time ( no disrespect cats fans, love chappy) where he barely shades him in most categories doesnt bode well for your arguments.

For the record,
2019 picketts GF performance was more inpressive than martins
Debut
Played midfield/wing
Same possies
1 goal
3rd? Most coaches votes i believe.

Maybe do a modicum of research to join the conversation. Meow Meow said Chappy and Martin’s finals stats were almost identical … so I thought I’d use those pesky things called facts to get a better guide.

And Martin kicked 4-goals to Pickett’s 1 in 2019. Pickett kicked his goal because Martin passed it to him to gift him the goal despite being 45m out which would have given him 5.

Martin received 10 coaches votes in 2019, as well as 15/15 NS votes. So yes, Pickett was good but well below Martin.


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[HBFlanker]

Only way this is achieved is if its at another club

 

[STPer18]

Paul Chapman

Paul Chapman

Age

42

Ht

179cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

6.9

4star

M

4.7

4star

T

3.5

5star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.6

3star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.2

3star

>

 

[Toppa]

Maybe do a modicum of research to join the conversation. Meow Meow said Chappy and Martin’s finals stats were almost identical … so I thought I’d use those pesky things called facts to get a better guide.

And Martin kicked 4-goals to Pickett’s 1 in 2019. Pickett kicked his goal because Martin passed it to him to gift him the goal despite being 45m out which would have given him 5.

Martin received 10 coaches votes in 2019, as well as 15/15 NS votes. So yes, Pickett was good but well below Martin.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Dont need to plough through a bunch of stats when you actually watch the games. All of them.
And i dont have a horse in this race so arent arguing for either player.. just pointing out the obvious that if Martin was the Goat id expect his stats would be significantly better than a player who probably isnt top 100 all time.
Its not rocket science

And i never said pickett was better, i said more impressive.

those pesky stats you speak of dont mean anything without a pesky thing called context.

If goals was the only measurement that mattered then in 2019 Riewoldt > martin.

See i can play stupid games with stats too

 

[Noidnadroj]

Dont need to plough through a bunch of stats when you actually watch the games. All of them.
And i dont have a horse in this race so arent arguing for either player.. just pointing out the obvious that if Martin was the Goat id expect his stats would be significantly better than a player who probably isnt top 100 all time.
Its not rocket science

And i never said pickett was better, i said more impressive.

those pesky stats you speak of dont mean anything without a pesky thing called context.

If goals was the only measurement that mattered then in 2019 Riewoldt > martin.

See i can play stupid games with stats too

Meow meow posts Chapman and Martin had similar finals records …. I post the stats that show Martin was significantly better … multiple posters then respond with ‘Why are you comparing Martin to Chapman?’……and his stats are significantly better than Chapmans. It’s a pretty stark difference.

And in the 2019 GF 3 out of 5 judges felt Pickett worthy of any NS votes … a 2,1,1. Martin was 3,3,3,3,3. Coach’s votes were 2,2 and Martin got 5,5. In my world more impressive would generally mean better. But now I know what you really
meant was whilst Pickett’s game was more impressive, Martin’s was better. Roger that.


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[STRONGandBALD]

I reckon rob harvey and adam goodes were twice each.
Or, twice as often as martin was

Does that logic apply to GAJ and Judd as well? Only two years being the best each?

GAS 0 as well then?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

You should probably use some other stats or arguements to prove your point.
If im understanding most tigers position in this forum its that martin is the GOAT yeah?
That being the case, a stats comparison with a similar player who probably isnt in the top 100 of all time ( no disrespect cats fans, love chappy) where he barely shades him in most categories doesnt bode well for your arguments.

For the record,
2019 picketts GF performance was more inpressive than martins
Debut
Played midfield/wing
Same possies
1 goal
3rd? Most coaches votes i believe.

Nope Dusty got the most coaches votes and NS votes, all unanimous. Seriously, where do you get these opinions from?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Paul Chapman

Paul Chapman

Age

42

Ht

179cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

6.9

4star

M

4.7

4star

T

3.5

5star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.6

3star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.2

3star

>

B2B

 

[Mr Meow]

Nope Dusty got the most coaches votes and NS votes, all unanimous. Seriously, where do you get these opinions from?

FWIW I thought there was a case for Pickett or JRoo. The former was doing a Michael Long impression, at least the watered down 2017-onwards era version. He just didn't quite have the goal kicking polish, but all the bursting from or linking up from stoppage carved Giants up. Dusty was the icing man anticipating ball out the back or on the lead against bumbling defenders. Which was entertaining too, but his 2020 game was much better.

Riewoldt 5 goals, an assist, 13 touches and 8 marks against a better defender could be considered unlucky. But they just don't like giving Norm Smith's to key forwards generally. Would've been a great award for a great player and one who in the end has also been underrated for his finals contributions - and no, stats don't tell the full story.

 

[Mr Meow]

Does that logic apply to GAJ and Judd as well? Only two years being the best each?

GAS 0 as well then?

Haha this is comedy gold.

Pick your poision.

Geelong 2007-2010: A Brownlow Medal (daylight robbery to not get three to be honest), three Coaches Association awards, three league MVPS, four All-Australian selections and two club Best and Fairests in premiership years.

Gold Coast 2011-2014: A Brownlow Medal (a second denied only by injury), two league MVPS, four All Australian selections and three club Best and Fairests in a struggling side. It's a lot harder to pick up votes when your side is getting thumped too.

Dusty didn't have to win a second Brownlow. The fact the very obvious favourite and universally recognised best player missed out often 2007-2014 shows that. But he wasn't even on the podium for the other two at any point - maybe not even top 5?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Haha this is comedy gold.

Pick your poision.

Geelong 2007-2010: A Brownlow Medal (daylight robbery to not get three to be honest), three Coaches Association awards, three league MVPS, four All-Australian selections and two club Best and Fairests in premiership years.

Gold Coast 2011-2014: A Brownlow Medal (a second denied only by injury), two league MVPS, four All Australian selections and three club Best and Fairests in a struggling side. It's a lot harder to pick up votes when your side is getting thumped too.

Dusty didn't have to win a second Brownlow. The fact the very obvious favourite and universally recognised best player missed out often 2007-2014 shows that. But he wasn't even on the podium for the other two at any point - maybe not even top 5?

Not really sure what you are arguing here. I’m saying you can be regarded as the best player over a period of time without winning the Brownlow every season. Isn’t that what you think to?

 

[Mr Meow]

You said unequivocally Chappy’s stats were spookily close to Martin’s in apparently ‘all’ the key areas anyone cares about… which of course being an almost permanent forward you’ve highlighted those as forward specific stats. And I appreciate you not wanting to allow a 25% loading for 2020. So here we go … in 25-years when you tell your grandkids how Chappy was almost on a par with Martin for finals performances, and your grandkids look up the stats to compare, this is what Chapman’s 20 x finals for the Cats looks like against Martin’s 16 x finals for Richmond.

Disposals:
Martin 22.00
Chappy 18.95

A 16% edge to Martin.

Inside 50’s:
Martin 4.69
Chappy 4.05

Again, a 16% edge to Martin.

Clearances:

Martin 3.69
Chapman 2.05

An 80% gap here. Outlines the proportion of time spent in midfield by the respective players.

Contested Possessions
Martin 11.75
Chappy 6.40

An 84% edge. This one surprised me as the impression I think most of us have of Chappy is a very compative and contested bull, when in reality he was probably more of a high quality finisher kicking goals from handball receives and smart leads. It belies previous narratives in this thread of Martin being on the end of Richmond’s good work and getting easy goals, when it’s clear that was very much Chappy’s role at the Cats, and he did it very well with great finishing skills.

Goals
Martin 1.63
Chappy 1.65

Basically dead heat.

Goal assist
Martin 1.19
Chappy 0.55

Martin more than doubled his goal assists in finals, which was surprising also given Geelong were outstanding at sharing the goals around. But Chappy’s number of 0.55 is still pretty strong, it’s just that 1.19 is elite.

Goals + Goal assists
Martin 2.82
Chappy 2.20

So Martin was directly responsible for ‘goals’ worth an average of 16.92 points per game. Chappy 13.2.

Richmond’s average score in finals was 86.88. Geelong’s was 99.29.

So as a percentage of team score it was :

Martin 19.5%
Chappy 13.3%


Im not sure of Chappy’s mid-fwd split, but with Selwood, Bartel, GAJ, Kelly, Ling etc… and based on low clearance and CP numbers, from my memory of seeing him play it was probably 20% midfield at the most…. but Cats fans would know better than me.

Martin’s overall would have probably been ballpark 70-30 across all finals, as he was predominantly midfield in most finals 2013/14/15/17/18, before being more mid-fwd beyond that.

So there you are. Raw stats as you requested. No 25% loading, no cherry picking specific years… just the raw stats our grandchildren will use to compare Martin v Chappy as finals players.

I don’t think they’ll be overly confused as to who the better finals player was.



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We're so close. Now you just have to exclude the torn hammy Chappy final and the sub-vest Chappy final. The '08 grand final he played prematurely from that injury and was not good, so there's your equivalent to Martin working through a niggle in the '18 PF. And we are looking at Geelong vs Richmond finals, Chappy was okay at Essendon but a year further on than Martin's last final - and you could already notice the decreased output for Martin in that - it happens to most forward focussed players in finals (unless your team is dominant) when you're approaching or at mid 30s. See GAJ in the finals Geelong were steam rolled in when he was 35-36.

You say there's a massive difference. Martin did his damage forward of centre, especially after 2017. For those metrics they're not miles apart at all. Not once you account for quality of opposition and that the Geelong gameplan utilised a split of two elite forward flankers who rotated through mids, rather than Richmond isolating one (with an extra bully around the ball further up the field).

We obviously didn't have Ayres awards but it would've been a classic vote stealing scenario each year. Chappy would've gone really close 2007 and 2009 but had the little factor of GAJ as competition. Bartel's record was immaculate too, Johnson's perhaps less consistent but he had a handful of games he tore opposition apart and got BOG. Scarlett would round out the truly top end finals performers from that side. But because (let's set a 9 final/2 GF minimum) GAJ, Bartel, Chapman, Johnson and Scarlett > Martin, Cotchin, Prestia, J.Riewoldt and Houli - and there were more top end opposition individual performances - no one player would clean up as significantly, I expect. Doesn't diminish any of the Geelong individuals as finals performers. The latter group meanwhile will be underrated except for Martin.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not really sure what you are arguing here. I’m saying you can be regarded as the best player over a period of time without winning the Brownlow every season. Isn’t that what you think to?

Yes but you'd need to be at least top 3 in some of the other awards to even be a chance of "best player that season". Probably winning one of them if being strict.

Best finals players those other two years is different, and goes to Martin. Like McLeod in '97-'98, Hodge a couple of years, Long in '93, Matera in '92, Petracca in '21 (sorry Macrae...eye test says otherwise), Voss in '02 and many more examples.

 

[Mr Meow]

The record books will say he is in a league of his own. That’s all that matters.

Besides your stats aren’t taking into account influence on games. That’s what the awards are based on. Chapman, GAJ and Johnson don’t make the cut in finals sorry.

Wowsers if you didn't think those three plus Bartel and Scarlett influenced games. I don't expect you to have rewatched them, or possibly even watched them the first time (tell me recollections of the Geelong vs Bulldogs finals?) - whereas most here would've watched finals 2017 onwards with them fresh in the memory. That's where the recency bias hammer sets in.

Nobody will go and rewatch the Brisbane finals from their dynasty either. I'm a dork so my background noise at times is old VFL/AFL games - no not just Cats ones. And you forget just how impressive the top tier of players were in the big games in other eras. Sure after the top 5 or 10 there's a drop off. But the best of the best each year were immense. And those lucky enough to be in dynasty sides more than held up there end of the bargain in similar ways to Martin. Mostly just in different roles and within different game plan dynamics. There aren't too many even remotely similar to Martin in role - maybe Aker, SJ and Chappy at a push?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Yes but you'd need to be at least top 3 in some of the other awards to even be a chance of "best player that season". Probably winning one of them if being strict.

Best finals players those other two years is different, and goes to Martin. Like McLeod in '97-'98, Hodge a couple of years, Long in '93, Matera in '92, Petracca in '21 (sorry Macrae...eye test says otherwise), Voss in '02 and many more examples.

I think it’s more general consensus and body of work over the time period tbh. Dusty was considered the best player from 17-20 by pretty much the whole football industry. Had the most decorated CV over those 4 years by a mile.

Mitchell was Priddis level, Fyfe was unexpected and Neale got the benefit of the whole season being played in Queensland and still cooked the finals.

 

[Mr Meow]

I think it’s more general consensus and body of work over the time period tbh. Dusty was considered the best player from 17-20 by pretty much the whole football industry. Had the most decorated CV over those 4 years by a mile.

Mitchell was Priddis level, Fyfe was unexpected and Neale got the benefit of the whole season being played in Queensland and still cooked the finals.

I just find his league MVP, Brownlow and Coaches Association award finishes 2018-2020 so underwhelming. Like you said it's not as if his competition was massive and he didn't have very hyped vote stealers in his side either. 2019 and 2020 he stepped up in finals but remember, who else got the chance 3 times in 4 years (as in, 3 or more finals games in 3 seasons)? I can only think of Geelong players, again in sides that got pummeled in the big games. And of course Richmond ones but beyond Martin, you simply had around 10 players giving solid 7 to 8/10 performances - no neutral considered them "superstars", rightly or wrongly.

if you look at full seasons it's a massive amount of games with an even playing field. Otherwise you can just say he peaked at the right time and so did Richmond. Which is worthy of great merit, it's just not the same as being recognised with one of those awards - even podium finishes. Preferably at least two as then there can be little doubt (e.g Cooney and Priddis not near it for league MVP or Coaches award in Brownlow years).

 

[Mr Meow]

That almost reads like if the Ayres medal was around in chappy's day he may have won a few .
Loved chappy as a player. Superstar

Yep if Chappy had a down day in 2009, St Kilda take home the flag (would've been well deserved too) and perhaps with that confidence they win a tight one a year later to go back to back.

He was absolutely supreme across the 2007 finals series too, but with two of them being those avalanche games I've sometimes added as a little disclaimer to Martin's grand finals, they don't quite hit the same on an individual level - the story of those thrashings is always team domination. 2008 unfortunately he did that hammy early in the 2008 QF and should probably not have returned for the grand final - he was cooked. 2009 he'd have pushed for best finals player again but GAJ probably edged it overall.

The fact that he and a few others stepped up to a level around the best player of their generation in Ablett speaks volumes about how good they were. But next to a "superstar", others will end up somewhat underrated to neutrals at least.

It's the same as many of those Saints midfielders - perhaps N.Riewoldt being "the man" somewhat downplayed praise of Hayes, Goddard, Dal Santo and Montagna. But as a group they essentially matched those loaded Cats and Pies midfields some years. Then take away the flags, going down twice to two excellent sides - and people forget.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

I just find his league MVP, Brownlow and Coaches Association award finishes 2018-2020 so underwhelming. Like you said it's not as if his competition was massive and he didn't have very hyped vote stealers in his side either. 2019 and 2020 he stepped up in finals but remember, who else got the chance 3 times in 4 years (as in, 3 or more finals games in 3 seasons)? I can only think of Geelong players, again in sides that got pummeled in the big games. And of course Richmond ones but beyond Martin, you simply had around 10 players giving solid 7 to 8/10 performances - no neutral considered them "superstars", rightly or wrongly.

if you look at full seasons it's a massive amount of games with an even playing field. Otherwise you can just say he peaked at the right time and so did Richmond. Which is worthy of great merit, it's just not the same as being recognised with one of those awards - even podium finishes. Preferably at least two as then there can be little doubt (e.g Cooney and Priddis not near it for league MVP or Coaches award in Brownlow years).

Call me crazy but I’d rather an AA, Gary Ayers, NS in a season over a Brownlow, MVP or Coaches award.

Btw all those Brownlow medalists and Danger in 2017 got more Brownlow votes in a season than GAJ ever did (Neale on Average votes). Not so sure about “not much competition”. Lucky Gary didn’t peak in the late 2010s might not have won a Brownlow at all.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I read ALL FINALS and a wall of text. Apologies if ALL FINALS is what I took out of the post.

Then I scanned down and you were doing dynasty comparisons again so forgive me if I'm missing what your point was, when I performed the same analysis on Chapman 2007-2011 (13 finals) vs Martin 2017-2022 (13 finals), then a 10 year period of finals at the same age for both. I think our numbers are different because of the 25% multiplier in 2020, which I'm still yet to see anybody but Richmond fans use for games that year. So we can agree to disagree on whether manipulating the data is the best thing to do.

Chapman is basically never mentioned in GOAT finals players yet his performances and numbers were remarkably close to Martin in the key areas everyone raves about, he was almost always in our best few players and shared half of those roaming flanker destroyer duties with SJ, whereas with Richmond Martin was THE guy in that role (throw an extra foot soldier in there to get the best out of him, up the field). Doesn't mean SJ or Chapman performed significantly worse in kind of similar roles. Oh and they played against much better teams.

I get that you're not happy Martin isn't in fact in a league of his own for his career and finals averages for possessions, goals and assists as far as elite forward/mids. 3 finals series Martin was fantastic. 5 he was okay. One overall season was incredible. A handful of others were very good. Great player. On a tier below the very best this century, let alone of all time.

The highlighted is essentially how to sum it up… and seems to be a real point of denial for a select few tigers fans.

You know it’s a legitimate fair discussion from the reactions from other 17 club fans. Your own club fans are irrelevant as it’s bias.

Do you ever see anyone laughing off suggestions of Carey matthews ablett’s in this discussion?? Nope.

Anytime it’s a legitimate consideration, it’s just a fair open discussion. Not a flat out shut down.