Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[Mr Meow]

You’re all over the place. Are we comparing all finals versus all finals as that’s what the AFL stats will say forever and a day (that’s why you said to not adjust the 2020 finals, remember ?) … or are we now removing a bunch of Chappy’s games and keeping all Martin’s in … but still making no allowance for the 2020 finals, have I got that right?

Bottom line is Martin was a dominant midfielder at various stages throughout his finals … (BOG in QF v Geelong without a goal. BOG versus Saints in 2020 SF with 1 x goal. BOG versus Hawks in 2018 QF with 1 goal. BOG in 2017 GF with 29 touches and 22 contested possessions and 2 goals… plus many other patches of midfield dominance)…

and despite all of this time when dominant in the midfield, he still managed to contribute to 19% of Richmond’s scores compared to Chappy contributing to 13% of Geelong’s scores, with 2.8 goals and goal assists v 2.2 for Chappy. Even though a Chappy played 80% forward versus 30% for Martin.

Just think about that. Martin contributed to 19% of Richmond scores versus 13% for Chapman, whilst Martin spent 30% of time forward versus 80% for Chapman.

But Meow Meow believes Chapman and Martin’s finals exploits are almost identical.

I know you’re tying yourself in knots with talk of teammates and opposition and any number of excuses as to why Chapman’s numbers are so inferior. …. but there’s a reason why Martin’s regarded as one of the very greatest finals player of all time and Chappy isn’t … the numbers paint a very clear picture.

Ps I agree that Chappy was still an excellent finals players.


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The Meow Meow stuff means your whole discussion is just a piss take.

The contribution of scores stuff is MR type stuff, which I usually don't associate you with.

Of course opposition and amount of stars and star performances matter. It's like saying "meal of the night" in a 3 star restaurant is automatically better than the 4th best meal in a 10 course fine dining experience at a 5 star one.

If Martin had the same record competing against peak GAJ, Swan, Riewoldt, Hodge, Mitchell, Hayes, Bartel, SJ, Chapman, Pendlebury, Franklin etc of course it would elevate him further.

But regardless I'm not sure besides repeating the same stuff there's anything else, besides the futility of "last word" stuff.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Because it followed my post about the awards Ablett won each year. Of course that's the inference. You're being obtuse or dense, I hope for your sake it's the former.

Huh? It was in response to you taking a pot shot at Dusty for have a lack of Brownlows or whatever. Jesus.

And let’s be clear once and for all, I don’t think GAJ is only the H&A king. If you seriously bring it up again I’m afraid to say you are just insecure.

 

[Mr Meow]

Huh? It was in response to you taking a pot shot at Dusty for have a lack of Brownlows or whatever. Jesus.

And let’s be clear once and for all, I don’t think GAJ is only the H&A king. If you seriously bring it up again I’m afraid to say you are just insecure.

Inflammatory language, highly defensive, diverting and contradicting. I'm just gonna wrap it up here while we're both happy.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Meow meow posts Chapman and Martin had similar finals records …. I post the stats that show Martin was significantly better … multiple posters then respond with ‘Why are you comparing Martin to Chapman?’……and his stats are significantly better than Chapmans. It’s a pretty stark difference.

And in the 2019 GF 3 out of 5 judges felt Pickett worthy of any NS votes … a 2,1,1. Martin was 3,3,3,3,3. Coach’s votes were 2,2 and Martin got 5,5. In my world more impressive would generally mean better. But now I know what you really
meant was whilst Pickett’s game was more impressive, Martin’s was better. Roger that.


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you post the most ridiculous fudging of statistics I have ever seen including trying to adjust statistics based off scores each team got… yet you don’t account for the fact Richmond played in some of the easiest blowouts against weak teams you will ever see and geelong played against much stronger opponents as well in grand finals and finals. Do we boost chapmans stats for that?

 

[Noidnadroj]

you post the most ridiculous fudging of statistics I have ever seen including trying to adjust statistics based off scores each team got… yet you don’t account for the fact Richmond played in some of the easiest blowouts against weak teams you will ever see and geelong played against much stronger opponents as well in grand finals and finals. Do we boost chapmans stats for that?

Hahaha… like Chapman’s 119 point 2007 GF win? Or the 107 point QF win of 2007? Or the 10-goal QF win of 2008? Or the 73-point PF win of 2009? Or the 70-point SF win of 2010? Or the 50-point PF win of 2011?

I just wish people checked their facts before posting.




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[Noidnadroj]

you post the most ridiculous fudging of statistics I have ever seen including trying to adjust statistics based off scores each team got… yet you don’t account for the fact Richmond played in some of the easiest blowouts against weak teams you will ever see and geelong played against much stronger opponents as well in grand finals and finals. Do we boost chapmans stats for that?

I’ll keep it simple. Martin had significantly more scoreboard impact than Chapman in finals whilst spending 70% of his time in the midfield. Not many stats are really needed beyond that.


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[Mr Meow]

Hahaha… like Chapman’s 119 point 2007 GF win? Or the 107 point QF win of 2007? Or the 10-goal QF win of 2008? Or the 73-point PF win of 2009? Or the 70-point SF win of 2010? Or the 50-point PF win of 2011?

I just wish people checked their facts before posting.




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Hahahaha you are still trying to use the '08 QF. Brilliant stuff.

 

[Mr Meow]

Hahaha… like Chapman’s 119 point 2007 GF win? Or the 107 point QF win of 2007? Or the 10-goal QF win of 2008? Or the 73-point PF win of 2009? Or the 70-point SF win of 2010? Or the 50-point PF win of 2011?

I just wish people checked their facts before posting.




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Only using games they played in and no not the hammy is or sub game for Chappy (1 big win, 1 loss):

8 Richmond finals: 5 goal plus winning margin
1 Richmond finals: 2-5 goal win
1 Richmond finals: 2 goal or less win
6 Richmond losing finals

7 Geelong finals: 5 goal plus winning margin
2 Geelong finals: 2-5 goal win
3 Geelong finals: 2 goal or less win
7 Geelong losing finals

So more than twice as many "tough" winning finals for Chapman and still one less easy winning match/one more losing match. Comparing both Chappy and Martins numbers in the blowout win matches Vs all others, it's fair to say there's a significant difference (and so that ratio does skew the results. Moreso for SJ who played in another 5 losing finals.

Also in the 5 goal plus winning margins there were some strong Hawthorn and Collingwood sides. Freo, West Coast, Port and NM fair enough.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Hahaha… like Chapman’s 119 point 2007 GF win? Or the 107 point QF win of 2007? Or the 10-goal QF win of 2008? Or the 73-point PF win of 2009? Or the 70-point SF win of 2010? Or the 50-point PF win of 2011?

I just wish people checked their facts before posting.




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You literally just described all Richmond’s finals. Easily wins against weak top 8 sides.

Chapmans grand final in 09 against a champion st kilda side was a better performance than any of martins finals games when you factor in how much better the opposition was and how much of a intensive pressure slog the match was.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Only using games they played in and no not the hammy is or sub game for Chappy (1 big win, 1 loss):

8 Richmond finals: 5 goal plus winning margin
1 Richmond finals: 2-5 goal win
1 Richmond finals: 2 goal or less win
6 Richmond losing finals

7 Geelong finals: 5 goal plus winning margin
2 Geelong finals: 2-5 goal win
3 Geelong finals: 2 goal or less win
7 Geelong losing finals

So more than twice as many "tough" winning finals for Chapman and still one less easy winning match/one more losing match. Comparing both Chappy and Martins numbers in the blowout win matches Vs all others, it's fair to say there's a significant difference (and so that ratio does skew the results. Moreso for SJ who played in another 5 losing finals.

Also in the 5 goal plus winning margins there were some strong Hawthorn and Collingwood sides. Freo, West Coast, Port and NM fair enough.

Just as a matter of interest, did you choose 5-goals for a reason? Haha. What was the breakdown of really big blowouts… like i don’t know, 10-goal thrashings….


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[STRONGandBALD]

You literally just described all Richmond’s finals. Easily wins against weak top 8 sides.

Chapmans grand final in 09 against a champion st kilda side was a better performance than any of martins finals games when you factor in how much better the opposition was and how much of a intensive pressure slog the match was.

So with this weird logic chapman is the best ever finals player. Ok.

If you use this “stronger side” excuse to fall back on when you’ve run out of things to say, nobody can compare anything.

 

[Mr Meow]

You literally just described all Richmond’s finals. Easily wins against weak top 8 sides.

Chapmans grand final in 09 against a champion st kilda side was a better performance than any of martins finals games when you factor in how much better the opposition was and how much of a intensive pressure slog the match was.

The toughest challenge/most meritorious hard fought wins would be the '19 prelim vs Geelong and '20 prelim vs Port Adelaide at AO. Probably equivalent to our two 2-5 goal wins against decent but not outstanding Bulldogs sides in '08/'09. I'd rate them a bit higher (seriously, watch some of their play in those finals before we pulled away late) than those Cats/Power sides of the '19-'20 years but it's close enough.

 

[Mr Meow]

Just as a matter of interest, did you choose 5-goals for a reason? Haha. What was the breakdown of really big blowouts… like i don’t know, 10-goal thrashings….


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I mean given Geelong won a handful of finals by 31 to 40 points I don't think it's a major issue. Less than 2 goals being a thriller, 2 to 5 goals being competitive but not a nailbiter, and anything beyond that being comfortable seems fairly in line with what most people would think. I'd call the Hawthorn '11 QF comfortable in the same way the '20 GF was. Would you say a final margin has to be 10 goals plus to be considered comfortable? So the '17 grand final was competitive?

 

[STRONGandBALD]

You literally just described all Richmond’s finals. Easily wins against weak top 8 sides.

Chapmans grand final in 09 against a champion st kilda side was a better performance than any of martins finals games when you factor in how much better the opposition was and how much of a intensive pressure slog the match was.

Also you aren’t taking into account margins against the opponents either. Which actually measure how good you are compared to them.

What’s harder beating St Kilda by a kick or beating GWS by 89?

Guaranteed the bookies would have the line +89 points against GWS as the longer odds

If you don’t take margins into account, with your logic a team that beats it’s opposition by a 1 points is better than a team who beats their opponents by 1,000 points. As the opposition was “better”

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Also you aren’t taking into account margins against the opponents either. Which actually measure how good you are compared to them.

What’s harder beating St Kilda by a kick or beating GWS by 89?

Guaranteed the bookies would have the line +89 points against GWS as the longer odds

If you don’t take margins into account, with your logic a team that beats it’s opposition by a 1 points is better than a team who beats their opponents by 1,000 points. As the opposition was “better”

LOLL!! sorry I only reserve that reaction for when I genuinely laugh. Oh boy

 

[STRONGandBALD]

LOLL!! sorry I only reserve that reaction for when I genuinely laugh. Oh boy

Of course you’d laugh. It demolishes your whole argument and way of thinking.

Is Richmond a better team if they beat GWS by 1 point or 89 points? Cmon should be an easy answer

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Of course you’d laugh. It demolishes your whole argument and way of thinking.

No, it’s like asking if it’s easier to spell your ABC’s to a high standard or take a medical exam and score highly.Then use the margin differential as evidence it’s more difficult. That’s why I laughed.

You’re comparing arguably the greatest side to lose a grand final vs one of the worst sides ever to make a grand final. Then decide to add a Margin factor to it.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

No, it’s like asking if it’s easier to spell your ABC’s to a high standard or take a medical exam and score highly.Then use the margin differential as evidence it’s more difficult. That’s why I laughed.

You’re comparing arguably the greatest side to lose a grand final vs one of the worst sides ever to make a grand final. Then decide to add a Margin factor to it.

Would Richmond be considered a better team if they beat GWS by 1 point or 89 points? Just answer it.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Would Richmond be considered a better team if they beat GWS by 1 point or 89 points? Just answer it.

Irrelevant because the opposition was purely s**t. I am basing the quality of the sides from the entire season, seasons before and after as well. That GWS side was pathetic for a grand finalist and would have gotten a 100 point belting from that saints team or even the geelong 2022 side.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

Irrelevant because the opposition was purely s**t. I am basing the quality of the sides from the entire season, seasons before and after as well. That GWS side was pathetic for a grand finalist and would have gotten a 100 point belting from that saints team or even the geelong 2022 side.

Oh dear. You know your argument is cooked when you can’t answer a simple question. Margins matter and I would take beating those saints by 12 points over GWS by 89. So would the bookies.

By the way we made GWS look s**t by beating them by that much. Maybe we should’ve done your logic by beating them by 1 point so they’d look better and thus we’d look better. See how stupid your logic it is.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Oh dear. You know your argument is cooked when you can’t answer a simple question. Margins matter and I would take beating those saints by 12 points over GWS by 89. So would the bookies.

By the way we made GWS look s**t by beating them by that much. Maybe we should’ve done your logic by beating them by 1 point so they’d look better and thus we’d look better. See how stupid your logic it is.

I answered your question, you just struggle to comprehend that you played a very poor grand finalist side and won by a lot as a result. Not difficult really to work out for most people.

 

[STRONGandBALD]

I answered your question, you just struggle to comprehend that you played a very poor grand finalist side and won by a lot as a result. Not difficult really to work out for most people.

The answer is Richmond by 89. We made them look poor because we smashed them.

I’d back every dynasty side to beat the Saints by 12 points easily. Probably Dees 21 and Cats 22 as well. Plus you fluked the toe poke to win it.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The answer is Richmond by 89. We made them look poor because we smashed them.

I’d back every dynasty side to beat the Saints by 12 points easily. Probably Dees 21 and Cats 22 as well. Plus you fluked the toe poke to win it.

You didn’t make them look poor, they were poor. All you need to do is have a look at the sides season as well as seasons prior and after to get your answer. And I would back that saints side to beat Richmond by approx 4-6 goals.

I am also going to put forward an idea for you to go away and work out why it is so.
Falcons brain teaser: “it is harder to beat champion sides than it is average sides”.

Give it a go, and get back to me

 

[STRONGandBALD]

You didn’t make them look poor, they were poor. All you need to do is have a look at the sides season as well as seasons prior and after to get your answer. And I would back that saints side to beat Richmond by approx 4-6 goals.

I am also going to put forward an idea for you to go away and work out why it is so.
Falcons brain teaser: “it is harder to beat champion sides than it is average sides”.

Give it a go, and get back to me

do you even know why we use % on the ladder? The higher the % the better team. Not the other way around like you think.

Considering the 2019 GF is the biggest GRAND FINAL % win in vfl/afl history, no I don’t think cats 09 could do it. They couldn’t even do it with port 07. So we’d definitely beat the saints if you could.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

do you even know why we use % on the ladder? The higher the % the better team. Not the other way around like you think.

Considering the 2019 GF is the biggest GRAND FINAL % win in vfl/afl history, no I don’t think cats 09 could do it. They couldn’t even do it with port 07. So we’d definitely beat the saints if you could.

Lol percentages are not an indication of who is the best side, and percentages are over an entire season against a full 22 game sample,you didn’t even have the best percentage on the ladder In 2019 anyway and GWS only had 115.

You have some very stupid views. Meteoric rise and the others actually know they are trolling, but I think you actually believe this stuff.

I feel like with you it’s trying to explain common sense to an 11 year old.

I will try again… i will use two current teams to help illustrate it for you

It would be harder for Richmond to beat collingwood by 3 goals than it would be for them to beat north Melbourne by 80 points. Richmond could play the same way they did against north to win by 80 and still lose to collingwood…

I am not sure how much more simplistically I can put it for you