Politics China Trade War

[Ned_Flanders]

False equivalence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Because Taiwan isn't prefect in every way, they must be the same as the PCR. Utter nonsense.

no, im just saying they are not a saint of democracy (esp when their votes are borderline pay for play)

if we are prepared to start a world war, i dont want it to be defending someone who wants to replace one corrupt regime with another corrupt regime

we have seen enough of how well that works in recent years

 

[Hornberger]

no, im just saying they are not a saint of democracy (esp when their votes are borderline pay for play)

if we are prepared to start a world war, i dont want it to be defending someone who wants to replace one corrupt regime with another corrupt regime

we have seen enough of how well that works in recent years

I am almost speechless at just how ignorant you are.

 

[Reynolds Number]

Both the CCP and the GMT (now the taiwanese govt) fought for the same territorial claim, for continental china and taiwan. both still to this day claim to be the legitimate govt of china


for the record, the people shafted in this are the Taiwanese. The govt of Taiwan doesn't represent them, and for decades it was illegal in Taiwan to speak or teach Taiwanese. The GMT were dictators just as bad as the CCP

The government of Taiwan is the democratically elected DPP. They have been in power since 2016 and were re-elected in January with a record number of votes over the KMT.

I'm well aware of Taiwans dictator history prior to 1990. There's good reason why it democratized.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The government of Taiwan is the democratically elected DPP. They have been in power since 2016 and were re-elected in January with a record number of votes.

well aware, but the voting system in taiwan has been pretty dodgy over the years (something which gets little airplay here because taiwan is rarely on our radar)

this hardly makes them unique however, and they are far from the worst

 

[Jello_B]

well aware, but the voting system in taiwan has been pretty dodgy over the years (something which gets little airplay here because taiwan is rarely on our radar)

this hardly makes them unique however, and they are far from the worst

What is your actual position on this? Do you agree that the CCP can take control of Taiwan and HK, or should these countries be allowed to operate as they are?
I can answer from my perspective (let’s avoid a circular deflection style conversation), I support Taiwan and HK being left as they are, with increasing freedom from China.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

What is your actual position on this? Do you agree that the CCP can take control of Taiwan and HK, or should these countries be allowed to operate as they are?
I can answer from my perspective (let’s avoid a circular deflection style conversation), I support Taiwan and HK being left as they are, with increasing freedom from China.

I support status quo.

taiwanese chance of independence was in the 1980's or immediately after Tiananmen. They chose not to however because they still consider themselves Chinese. China will take Taiwan back by force if it declares independence now, and frankly its not worth the cost. They are effectively independent, and they chose this compromised format.

HK is a weird one. There has never been an appetite for independence there. I was genuinely surprised when I was there with work in the 2000's. its only recently come up. most HK'ers just want to make money, and dont give a s**t about politics. they also want access to china without having the same rules chinese live under on them. until they accept its one of the other, i think nothing will change there, and the rest of us should stay clear.

on china itself, its like the soviet union in that we could intervene, but the price is a world war that will cost tens if not hundreds of millions. i favour cold war thinking, and thats detente. use diplomacy and other tools to minimize the ****ed up things both sides do, but understand its not going to stop them.

its an imperfect situation, but until chinese people want change, we cannot impose regime change on 1.4b people. it failed in iraq, afghanistan, and every other place the west tried it. do we really want to turn china into a new syria?

 

[Jello_B]

I support status quo.

taiwanese chance of independence was in the 1980's or immediately after Tiananmen. They chose not to however because they still consider themselves Chinese. China will take Taiwan back by force if it declares independence now, and frankly its not worth the cost. They are effectively independent, and they chose this compromised format.

HK is a weird one. There has never been an appetite for independence there. I was genuinely surprised when I was there with work in the 2000's. its only recently come up. most HK'ers just want to make money, and dont give a s**t about politics. they also want access to china without having the same rules chinese live under on them. until they accept its one of the other, i think nothing will change there, and the rest of us should stay clear.

on china itself, its like the soviet union in that we could intervene, but the price is a world war that will cost tens if not hundreds of millions. i favour cold war thinking, and thats detente. use diplomacy and other tools to minimize the f’ed up things both sides do, but understand its not going to stop them.

its an imperfect situation, but until chinese people want change, we cannot impose regime change on 1.4b people. it failed in iraq, afghanistan, and every other place the west tried it. do we really want to turn china into a new syria?

Well said.

 

[Fire]

I'd like to see some more assured progress towards export market diversification first.

Sometimes you need a kick up the arse to get going though.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

It will be interesting to see what Victoria does here, and how much a bluff this is from the USA

Concerns raised over Victoria’s deal with China

The US ambassador to Australia has hosed down a warning from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo that Victoria’s Belt and Road agreement with China could see the US “simply disconnect” from Australia if it impacts telecommunications.

www.news.com.au

 

[Number37]

It will be interesting to see what Victoria does here, and how much a bluff this is from the USA

Concerns raised over Victoria’s deal with China

The US ambassador to Australia has hosed down a warning from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo that Victoria’s Belt and Road agreement with China could see the US “simply disconnect” from Australia if it impacts telecommunications.

www.news.com.au

Someone needs to tell Pompeo to F right off and stay the F out of our politics.

 

[Gethelred]

I don't want a world war. I never said I did. Fell free to engage in the rest of my post though.

TBF, it did sound as though you were moving in that sort of direction; that China would need an accounting for their misdeeds, come hell or high water.

 

[Gethelred]

It will be interesting to see what Victoria does here, and how much a bluff this is from the USA

Concerns raised over Victoria’s deal with China

The US ambassador to Australia has hosed down a warning from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo that Victoria’s Belt and Road agreement with China could see the US “simply disconnect” from Australia if it impacts telecommunications.

www.news.com.au

So it isn't enough that Peter ******* Dutton has opinions outside his purview, we now have ******* US politicians having opinions on Victorian state politics?

It's funny, I don't think the US'd take kindly to us violating their sovereignty. I do wish they'd extend to us the same courtesy.

 

[Jello_B]

So it isn't enough that Peter ******* Dutton has opinions outside his purview, we now have ******* US politicians having opinions on Victorian state politics?

It's funny, I don't think the US'd take kindly to us violating their sovereignty. I do wish they'd extend to us the same courtesy.

Read the article and quote. Of course the US would need to disconnect from AUS if we were not meeting security protocols by inviting an external threat (China) into our networks. Do people in anyway understand that AUS and the US are allied nations, our defence sectors work together against countries like China.

 

[Balls In]

Someone needs to tell Pompeo to F right off and stay the F out of our politics.

What are you talking about? If Victoria compromises the security of our telecommunications with the US - which is what Dan risks with this deal with China - then the matter affects the US directly

 

[Jello_B]

What are you talking about? If Victoria compromises the security of our telecommunications with the US - which is what Dan risks with this deal with China - then the matter affects the US directly

Exactly. There are strict rules around the storage and sharing of defence grade information. You cannot invite foreign threats into these networks.

 

[Gethelred]

Read the article and quote. Of course the US would need to disconnect from AUS if we were not meeting security protocols by inviting an external threat (China) into our networks. Do people in anyway understand that AUS and the US are allied nations, our defence sectors work together against countries like China.

Certifiable horse s**t.

If this were an issue of this magnitude, tell me why it's coming out in public, playing out in public view? This is partisan bullshit, couched in political terms for political reasons.

Let's be clear; I'm not talking about the rest of the discussion, I'm purely talking about Pompeo discussing Victorian state politics as though he was elected to the Victorian state legislative by the Victorian population.

We're not America, and I rather do not think they would like us dictating what they can do or how they can fund their own projects. For *'s sake. We are not the 52nd state.

 

[Gethelred]

Exactly. There are strict rules around the storage and sharing of defence grade information. You cannot invite foreign threats into these networks.

Why is this playing out in the public sphere, then?

I'm all for solidarity and for - if the US feels it might be an issue - them to bring it up privately, but that's not how things are progressing. This is active US interference in Australian politics, and I cannot for the life of me see how so many people think it's okay.

 

[DIG]

Signing up to the BRI was a worry last year partly because the benefits were unclear, but now it’s a massive concern - the landscape has completely changed given how the CCP have been behaving lately.

The Vic government couldn’t get out of this
now even if they wanted to for fear of “punishment” from the *ers. But I just don’t get the benefits, cheap finance? Finance has never been cheaper post-covid. Are they going to award massive contracts to Chinese firms? What do we get?

Hey at least if WW3 happens they’ll probably drop their nukes away from Melbourne!

 

[DIG]

Why is this playing out in the public sphere, then?

I'm all for solidarity and for - if the US feels it might be an issue - them to bring it up privately, but that's not how things are progressing. This is active US interference in Australian politics, and I cannot for the life of me see how so many people think it's okay.

Too many dumb as dogshit politicians.

You’re right there’s channels where the US could’ve raised any concerns with us on this in private.

 

[Jello_B]

Certifiable horse s**t.

If this were an issue of this magnitude, tell me why it's coming out in public, playing out in public view? This is partisan bullshit, couched in political terms for political reasons.

Let's be clear; I'm not talking about the rest of the discussion, I'm purely talking about Pompeo discussing Victorian state politics as though he was elected to the Victorian state legislative by the Victorian population.

We're not America, and I rather do not think they would like us dictating what they can do or how they can fund their own projects. For fu**'s sake. We are not the 52nd state.

Which comment from Pompeo did you actually have an issue with as I cannot see it in the article you linked?
We must also both acknowledge that we have no idea what has been discussed in private.

 

[Jello_B]

Too many dumb as dogshit politicians.

You’re right there’s channels where the US could’ve raised any concerns with us on this in private.

They may have.

 

[Jello_B]

For anyone that is interested the MOU signed between China and Vic Government is online.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Which comment from Pompeo did you actually have an issue with as I cannot see it in the article you linked?
We must also both acknowledge that we have no idea what has been discussed in private.

here's the article referring to pompeo's comments. he hasnt even seen the details of the project, so we are being threatened based upon a maybe


While he said he did not know of Victoria’s agreement, he warned it could impact the US’s Five Eyes partnership with Australia.

“We will not take any risks to our telecommunications infrastructure, any risk to the national security elements of what we need to do with our Five Eyes partners,” he said.

“I don’t know the nature of those projects precisely. To the extent they have an adverse impact on our ability to protect telecommunications from our private citizens, or security networks for our defence and intelligence communities – we simply disconnect, we will simply separate.

“We are going to preserve trust in networks … we hope our friends and allies, especially our Five Eyes partners like Australia, do the same.”

 

[Jello_B]

here's the article referring to pompeo's comments. he hasnt even seen the details of the project, so we are being threatened based upon a maybe


While he said he did not know of Victoria’s agreement, he warned it could impact the US’s Five Eyes partnership with Australia.

“We will not take any risks to our telecommunications infrastructure, any risk to the national security elements of what we need to do with our Five Eyes partners,” he said.

“I don’t know the nature of those projects precisely. To the extent they have an adverse impact on our ability to protect telecommunications from our private citizens, or security networks for our defence and intelligence communities – we simply disconnect, we will simply separate.

“We are going to preserve trust in networks … we hope our friends and allies, especially our Five Eyes partners like Australia, do the same.”

Thanks and I had already read this. I can’t see any issue. Isn’t he just saying a) we will protect ourselves against risk, b) if they deem Victoria are introducing risk they will disconnect from those risks.
What is the issue with saying this? Also it looks like he was asked about it, so it’s not like he walked out boots and all to target Victoria.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Thanks and I had already read this. I can’t see any issue. Isn’t he just saying a) we will protect ourselves against risk, b) if they deem Victoria are introducing risk they will disconnect from those risks.
What is the issue with saying this? Also it looks like he was asked about it, so it’s not like he walked out boots and all to target Victoria.

we are allegedly a key ally, and he's threatening to break ties with australia, over something he hasnt even read yet

people are saying "the usa has our back", is this is, because this is a threat in my book