Politics China Trade War

Ned_Flanders

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It is about the CCP, in the (very recent) past if you blocked Chinese people into Australia to protect our borders during a pandemic - fringes of either side would SCREAM 'RACIST'. The pandemic has brought CCP's actions to a head - from their abassodor to Sweden - 'We treat our friends with fine wine our enemies with guns', to their ambassador in Germany and France publicly gunning for kudo's for China's handling of pandemic, to their ambassador here in this country - making threats of coercion due to inquiry.

From - influence into our political system - Sam Dastayari.
To - Shaoquette Moselmate also being paid up by the CCP spreading propoganda that Australia is racist (how ironic) that we are obsolete 'White Scum'.

During the pandemic - They covered up the initial outbreak allowing it to spread worldwide causing over 300,000 deaths and a global recession.
They lied about human to human transmission.
They lied about the severity.
The CCP then asked Chinese companies to ship our medical supplies back to China meaning when it did spread we were under resourced.
The trade war due to inquiry.

It's not about what has happened overseas, out governments and uni's have been wrong to ignore the injustices committed by China - and you are right CHina has been a pariah state and they are great injustices, bu it's that now, through a pandemic all of the above has also happened - and it's brought it alllllll to a head.

It's poosible for a world war - I dare say a lot more resources and nations will be a part of it in the event of this happening.
China doesn't have many friends - it's also hated by Vietnam, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, not to mention the might of the US, then Australia, Canada, UK, the EU, Nato and the rest of the world. Their hubris would entail a beating.
with you wanting a world war, i hope you know what price that will cost, it will go nuclear (one of the reasons noone was dumb enough to start one after 45)
 

Ned_Flanders

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Do a quick ISO31000 on this and look at the consequences of us not retaining the US defence relationship. You may be correct, and the US may not come to our aid for a real threat. You may be incorrect, and the reason we have enjoyed the livelihood we have is partly due to our relationship with the US. Would you take the risk of disconnecting from the US when some of the consequences are extremely intolerable. And why would we take the risk, because one US president talks a lot of smack, and some of our export industries are being bullied by China.
You may be right, what if you are not?
im saying bug out of our defense ties and just stick to trade

the usa is already talking of leaving south korea and japan, and they walked from the philippines years ago. they will not defend us because the cost of lives would be for too little return (we have no oil after all)
 

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Jello_B

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im saying bug out of our defense ties and just stick to trade

the usa is already talking of leaving south korea and japan, and they walked from the philippines years ago. they will not defend us because the cost of lives would be for too little return (we have no oil after all)
I understand that, and you may be correct that bugging out of our defence ties (I’m not familiar with the term bugging but I think I know what you mean) has acceptable ramifications for Australia. It also may not...
And just to combine posts (sorry), I don’t think anyone wants a war, but I amongst others feel that the longer this goes on the more chance there is we are on the losing side of a war. It’s all very complex.
 

Jello_B

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Also please note that my posts are based on the US at some stage returning to some semblance of sanity. The world really needs this to happen. Won’t be for another four years or more, but still a relatively short timeframe in the scheme.
 

Ned_Flanders

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I understand that, and you may be correct that bugging out of our defence ties (I’m not familiar with the term bugging but I think I know what you mean) has acceptable ramifications for Australia. It also may not...
And just to combine posts (sorry), I don’t think anyone wants a war, but I amongst others feel that the longer this goes on the more chance there is we are on the losing side of a war. It’s all very complex.
my fear is people wanting to punish china will see an inevitable demand for war

wanting intervention in hk for example sounds mild, but its landing foreign troops on chinese soil - thats an invasion, and thats something that cannot be restricted to just hk
 

Jello_B

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my fear is people wanting to punish china will see an inevitable demand for war

wanting intervention in hk for example sounds mild, but its landing foreign troops on chinese soil - thats an invasion, and thats something that cannot be restricted to just hk
At what point do we intervene? When should have the world intervened prior to World War 2? When Germany “reunified” with Austria?
In your opinion what should be done if China send the army into HK against the will of the people and start slaughtering people en masse?
 

Jello_B

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And sorry (Sunday morning) I think overwhelmingly everyone is against any war with China. I can’t see war happening with China unless China starts it.
 

Ned_Flanders

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At what point do we intervene? When should have the world intervened prior to World War 2? When Germany “reunified” with Austria?
In your opinion what should be done if China send the army into HK against the will of the people and start slaughtering people en masse?
there is nothing to intervene on, HK was taken by force in an immoral drug war. The UK had no right to hold onto it

you cannot "free" hk just by defeating HK. you will have to conquor over 100 major cities within china. the japanese couldnt do it, and only the mongols (on a river of blood) have ever achieved it.

if you had local support, thats one thing. but local chinese support the CCP right now


as for your germany analogy, what countries has china annexed so far? the last one was tibet, and 70 years is a little late for a justifiable response
 

Evolved1

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lol, yet with all those major tensions we have allowed massive trade with china, massive numbers of chinese students in australia, massive investment of chinese money in australia, yet we had huge issues with them

bullshit. even now, we dont give a fu**. look at how little we did to support the protests in HK, the persecutions in Tibet and Xinjiang, and the SFA support to Vietnam/Malaysia/Indonesia/Philippines in the SCS.

why is it now we have an issue? its because daddy called, and scomo did as he was told
I'm in two minds there, wondering if Scomo got the call from daddy or if he just got ahead of himself. He doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed.
 

Evolved1

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Why does it matter what the reasons are? As long as the actions are right who cares. the ccp is an enemy of human rights and needs to be stopped until it learns to adopt a more humanitarian approach. An anti CCP momentum is now brewing. This might be our only chance. Support it.

ps. Dont confuse the chinese people with the ccp. there is nothing wrong with chinese students getting educated here in regards to human rights. They arent the enemy. In fact they are the victim of the CCP and bringing them here to learn might give them a different perspective.

My contacts tell me the US is strongly considering intervening in Hong Kong. They may be doing it for completely the wrong reasons but who cares. The problem is they havnt got enough support from the Europeans ironically and they wont do this alone. Discussions are happening trying to convince Europe that a strong defensive stance needs to be taken on Hong kong.
I thought the US played some theoretical war games and China kicked their ass every time.
 

Jello_B

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there is nothing to intervene on, HK was taken by force in an immoral drug war. The UK had no right to hold onto it

you cannot "free" hk just by defeating HK. you will have to conquor over 100 major cities within china. the japanese couldnt do it, and only the mongols (on a river of blood) have ever achieved it.

if you had local support, thats one thing. but local chinese support the CCP right now


as for your germany analogy, what countries has china annexed so far? the last one was tibet, and 70 years is a little late for a justifiable response
I dont disagree that the UK shouldn’t govern HK (although I bet the majority of people in HK wish they still did). And what do you mean there is nothing to intervene on, should the world watch China take control of HK and do nothing? What if they start killing protesters?
And on the final comment, that is my point. It appears that China are becoming more expansionary, do we wait? Take over HK, Taiwan, SCS, African debt approach, when is the threat intolerable (as I said this is very complex and I am not purporting to have the answers to this).
 

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Ned_Flanders

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I dont disagree that the UK shouldn’t govern HK (although I bet the majority of people in HK wish they still did). And what do you mean there is nothing to intervene on, should the world watch China take control of HK and do nothing? What if they start killing protesters?
And on the final comment, that is my point. It appears that China are becoming more expansionary, do we wait? Take over HK, Taiwan, SCS, African debt approach, when is the threat intolerable (as I said this is very complex and I am not purporting to have the answers to this).
HK is and always has been chinese territory, the UK only ever had a lease

Taiwan is chinese territory. People forget Taiwan is still claiming all of mainland china. the debate about taiwain being independent is a farce, because until Taiwan stops claiming its the rightful ruler of the mainland, its just a claim to get western support

SCS was lost when the west let the atolls be converted over a decade ago. reality is its not a population however, so per my original point, no annexation

name an african country where china has declared sovereignty on any land, im unaware of this even happening (last time this occurred from my memory is back in the opium war with the western zones)
 

Gough

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I'm sorta pulling for China on this one, if only so it can inflict maximum on Australia and undermine our government and the idiots that voted for them. Actions have consequences.
 

Evolved1

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I'm sorta pulling for China on this one, if only so it can inflict maximum on Australia and undermine our government and the idiots that voted for them. Actions have consequences.
If our federal government is dumb enough to think they can bully China, they've got it coming.

I'm more concerned about the collateral damage to innocent parties.
 

Hornberger

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Taiwan is chinese territory. People forget Taiwan is still claiming all of mainland china. the debate about taiwain being independent is a farce, because until Taiwan stops claiming its the rightful ruler of the mainland, its just a claim to get western support
CCP has never controlled Taiwan. How could you possibly conclude that Taiwan is Chinese?

And to equate the PCR claim over Taiwan to ROC's historical claims over the mainland is intellectual dishonesty in the extreme.
 

Ned_Flanders

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CCP has never controlled Taiwan. How could you possibly conclude that Taiwan is Chinese?
Both the CCP and the GMT (now the taiwanese govt) fought for the same territorial claim, for continental china and taiwan. both still to this day claim to be the legitimate govt of china


for the record, the people shafted in this are the Taiwanese. The govt of Taiwan doesn't represent them, and for decades it was illegal in Taiwan to speak or teach Taiwanese. The GMT were dictators just as bad as the CCP
 

Hornberger

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for the record, the people shafted in this are the Taiwanese. The govt of Taiwan doesn't represent them, and for decades it was illegal in Taiwan to speak or teach Taiwanese. The GMT were dictators just as bad as the CCP
And in the 1990's the Kuomintang ended martial law and introduced democracy. You effectively ignoring the last year 30 of Taiwanese history. It would the same as claiming the South Korea is the same as North Korea, because it was under military rule until early 90's. Utter nonsense.
 

Ned_Flanders

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And in the 1990's the Kuomintang ended martial law and introduced democracy. You effectively ignoring the last year 30 of Taiwanese history. It would the same as claiming the South Korea is the same as North Korea, because it was under military rule until early 90's. Utter nonsense.
and yet they still claim to be lawful rulers of the mainland, and still suppress the local taiwanese population

democracy is all well and good, but like most democracies it good for those it represents
 

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