Coach Football department changes going forward

[doggies ftw]

Isn't the reason we dominate in the midfield and therefore inside 50 numbers because we push our half-forwards flanker(s) up to the contest to gain an extra number there? This gets highlighted pretty much every week. So doesn't that also mean we're an extra man DOWN in the forward 50, essentially? Not sure how much success you guys are expecting us to have in a 5 v 6 (or a lot of the times 7) when the majority of the midfielders delivering the ball in couldn't put a marble up an elephants a-hole from 6 inches.

Sure there's elements of the forward line we can improve, just as there's elements on every line we can improve, but I don't see Spangher as THE issue.

We don’t play a man down in the forward line, if there’s a stoppage in the forward half we’ll roll a flanker up into the contest, a lot of the time their opponent will follow then anyway but I don’t believe those contested entries are the issue - of course there’s going to be times in a game where a long contested entry is the only option. There’s still a significant amount of game time where this isn’t relevant.

When we’re transitioning the ball in open play we’re not a man down in the forward line. And this is where we see the stagnant movement, non existing leading patterns, everyone flying for the same ball, smalls not front & centre - real amateur stuff.

I agree that a lot of this is probably to do with team selection, thinking sloppy inside mids can play as natural forwards etc. that’s not Spanghers fault - but maybe an experienced coach could have more input and demand better selection, rather than someone whose probably just happy to have his job rather than question the boss.

I don’t think anyone’s claimed Spangher or the fwd line is the only problem - there’s many. But in my point of view his lack of experience or merit for the role seems like one part of the issue. And this is the issue currently being discussed but yes there’s definitely other issues involved like team selection, ground defence, the way we transition the footy and enter the fwd line etc

 

[hutchy31]

I'm not a massive fan of the Spangher appointment, but I think judging him on this coming season might be more valuable. I imagine at AFL level it'd take some time to get the trust of the players in your line, get the confidence to make yourself heard in coaching/MC situations, and have your ideas actually implemented effectively.

I also think at least some of our forward problems are due to poor entries, which is on the midfield predominantly. Yes, better leading patterns and separation between our forwards would help, but difficult to lay it all at Spangher's door.

I do agree with those who have questioned the 5th best scoring team - yes, on a superficial level that's correct but apart from the Melbourne game we weren't putting up big numbers against the top half of the table (at least from memory).

What can Spangher control? If we see better leading patterns and separation between our KPFs (more Geelong-like than 2022 Bulldogs where it seemed like 3-4 of our guys were flying for most balls), Weightman focusing more on his role as a small forward rather than trying to act like a tall, decent goal kicking conversion and better efforts in locking the ball in the forward 50 then that'll be a pass. Then the defense and midfield need to do their job.

 

[BEaston]

Needs to be better given we were coming off a GF

And we all know forward lines need to do more than just points for these days. The ball walked out very easily a lot of the time which has a flow on effect down the field.

Just interesting that your subjective description of 'a shambles' is somehow evidence, yet an actual data point relative to the league is dismissed.

 

[BEaston]

We also had one of the hardest draws in the league last season objectively. Doesn't really fit the narrative that our scoring was boosted by overplaying weak teams.

 

[BEaston]

And also let's just ignore the biggest elephant in the room, that being that none of us have any idea of the impact Spangher is having on the players whether positive or negative. Sure, sprout your theories but they are just that. Don't pretend you're some kind of expert and have insider knowledge.

 

[BEaston]

Yeah this, if only it was that simple and high points for meant the forward line was functioning perfectly…

We also completely beat up on s**t clubs because they cannot match our midfield - 300 points came in 2 games against the bottom 2 alone. We usually run at a huge inside 50 differential as we have one of the top few midfields in the league, we play majority of our games at the fastest deck in the country. There’s so many factors here and look I don’t have the stats and cbf looking but I’d suggest we score more heavily against poor teams than average and less against good teams than average. And like you mentioned we are the worst team in the comp at allowing transition from def 50.

If posters want to hang their hat on being the 5th highest scoring team that’s fine but I don’t think I can take anyone’s opinion seriously if they’ve watched us play this year and think our forward line has been anything but a mess

How much other teams do you watch each week? Genuine question.

My interpretation of your posting is not too much. I'm not sure you realise how messy almost every teams' forward line is these days. The defensive schemes are so good now, footy will never again look like the 90s.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I’m not happy with how the fwd line functions = Spangher must be s**t.

Pretty much sums up the last 12hrs of posting.

Have we given any thought to what he has to work with? Our main fwd half targets were 22, 21 and 20 years of age. All performed incredibly well.

Why is this completely ignored by the Anti Spangher Cult?

 

[VitalDread]

I’m not happy with how the fwd line functions = Spangher must be s**t.

Pretty much sums up the last 12hrs of posting.

Have we given any thought to what he has to work with? Our main fwd half targets were 22, 21 and 20 years of age. All performed incredibly well.

Why is this completely ignored by the Anti Spangher Cult?

One of the main factors to a poor forward line is delivery
If our mids and half backs are butchering the footy, good luck to any forward

 

[BallaratBulldog]

One of the main factors to a poor forward line is delivery
If our mids and half backs are butchering the footy, good luck to any forward

Not just that, Forwards need to be taught how to lead and make space. amount of times Weightman flys for a mark in front of Naughton for example, should be at the fall of the ball.

 

[Hoges64]

And also let's just ignore the biggest elephant in the room, that being that none of us have any idea of the impact Spangher is having on the players whether positive or negative. Sure, sprout your theories but they are just that. Don't pretend you're some kind of expert and have insider knowledge.

Surely there must be a way to like a post 58 billion times...

 

[ringa5]

Be the easiest job in the AFL Spangers job.All he has to do is find a system where the forwards are separated.
1 on 1s just pass to the mismatch.
And let them roam up the ground when Ariel strength is required.like Geelong do.And instruct Weightman to stay down and crumb.Spend the whole preseason learning the art if required.

 

[Hoges64]

Not just that, Forwards need to be taught how to lead and make space. amount of times Weightman flys for a mark in front of Naughton for example, should be at the fall of the ball.

It's true that Weightman does fly for the same ball as Naughton on many occasions but to be fair to Weightman it's hard to know that Naughton is coming from 30m across, flying into packs from 6 deep, and basically just being the most random forward in the league. The way he acts in the forward line it's genuinely hard to tell if he's the intended target or not, and even if he is we can't hit him to save our lives anyway, so Weightman would assume they were kicking to him.

 

[True Dog]

One of the main factors to a poor forward line is delivery
If our mids and half backs are butchering the footy, good luck to any forward

As a team we need to lower our eyes more when kicking inside 50. Too often it’s to the top of the square hoping for Naughts to mark it. Macrae is good at it and so to the Bont at times however with Lobb and Darcy and Marra alongside Naughts I feel it will be more of the same?

 

[Charlie Bucket]

One of the main factors to a poor forward line is delivery
If our mids and half backs are butchering the footy, good luck to any forward

Certainly doesn’t help.

For our extremely young forward line to perform the way it has, is a credit to not only themselves but also the coaching group. Bodes well for the coming years.

 

[Nat Fyfe]

One of the main factors to a poor forward line is delivery
If our mids and half backs are butchering the footy, good luck to any forward

It's for the same reason that I think concerns around our defensive personnel are overblown. Our midfielders and forwards apply little pressure on the ball carrier and the outside 5 approach gives up ground, allowing for quicker and easier entry for the opposition, making our guys look worse than they are

 

[lachy]

It's for the same reason that I think concerns around our defensive personnel are overblown. Our midfielders and forwards apply little pressure on the ball carrier and the outside 5 approach gives up ground, allowing for quicker and easier entry for the opposition, making our guys look worse than they are

You are correct. Not to say we do not have issues at either end of the ground but there was not a game we lost where our mids worked hard forward and back, lowered their eyes on forward entry and worked together to create space and time in congestion.

Bont played sore, Macrae was just a good player and outside Dunkley whose disposal leaves a bit to be desired the only other mid who had a period of consistency at his level was Libba who also had flat patches.

Fix this area of the ground (midfield) and connections right from back through to forward and we are a top 4 team.

And this is the area where we have added our new resources in Lade and Martin and we are allowing Webb to focus on his strengths.

Still think we are 1 assistant short but this set up is a hell of lot better than the last 2 years where you would think we never played a final going through this thread

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[Martyn_30_]

Isn't the reason we dominate in the midfield and therefore inside 50 numbers because we push our half-forwards flanker(s) up to the contest to gain an extra number there? This gets highlighted pretty much every week. So doesn't that also mean we're an extra man DOWN in the forward 50, essentially? Not sure how much success you guys are expecting us to have in a 5 v 6 (or a lot of the times 7) when the majority of the midfielders delivering the ball in couldn't put a marble up an elephants a-hole from 6 inches.

Sure there's elements of the forward line we can improve, just as there's elements on every line we can improve, but I don't see Spangher as THE issue.

The side was a clear number one in centre clearance differential last year so that argument doesn’t stand up. The midfield wins the ball very well inside and outside, the one big issue the midfield has that hurts scoring is Smith’s delivery inside 50.


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[Hoges64]

The side was a clear number one in centre clearance differential last year so that argument doesn’t stand up. The midfield wins the ball very well inside and outside, the one big issue the midfield has that hurts scoring is Smith’s delivery inside 50.


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Not sure how what you're saying hurts my argument, if anything it helps it?

Western Bulldogs
The Bulldogs are the AFL's best stoppage team statistically, ranking No.1 for both clearance differential (+8.2) and scores from stoppages (+9.5).

This is because we pretty much always have an extra number at the stoppage, which has to have come from somewhere, majority of the time the forward line. It does help that because of our list the "extra forward" is a midfielder being forced to play forward.

 

[doggies ftw]

How much other teams do you watch each week? Genuine question.

My interpretation of your posting is not too much. I'm not sure you realise how messy almost every teams' forward line is these days. The defensive schemes are so good now, footy will never again look like the 90s.

Not as much as I used to because you’re right it’s sloppy and hard to watch a lot of the time, but we want to be a good side right? I expect us to be one of the better sides in the comp personally - the good sides still generate scoring opportunities through mismatches and one on ones through smart systematic forward play. We barely can get a key forward one on one at the best of times - we struggle to score unless we have a huge amount of ball coming in which only the s**t teams allow us to do.

Is this all to do with the forward line? Absolutely not, not once have I claimed Spangher and the forward line is the only problem - but they don’t help our midfield by making space for each other and giving us good options to kick too. Our ball movement is poor too and id love us to take a more direct approach which would let us see a bit more quick flowing footy inside 50. Again he’s not the only problem by a mile, but it’s quite obvious he’s super inexperienced for his role and rightly or wrongly buck stops with him. Was he the best option available to look after a GF making forward line? I’d be surprised.

This isn’t an out there take by any stretch - you don’t need to watch opposition games to see this, every week is a slog for us forward of the ball, read every game day thread from this year and you’ll see the same s**t. Lack of ability to capitalise on our midfield dominance, can’t generate good looks at goal, can’t capitalise when we do etc

Whilst the opposition routinely generates one on ones and mismatches in our defence

 

[Graeme Cook]

This is a great coaching line up now.

Premiership winning senior coach
Experienced mid coach and senior assistant - Lade
Experienced and highly rated backline coach - Smith
Stoppages expert - Webb
Young but highly rated and talented Fwd coach - Spangher
2 experienced development coaches plus the highly intelligent Big Stef.

Looking forward to next year already.

Experienced highly rated backline
Coach your taking the piss ranked 18 in one on one duals.

 

[hutchy31]

How much other teams do you watch each week? Genuine question.

My interpretation of your posting is not too much. I'm not sure you realise how messy almost every teams' forward line is these days. The defensive schemes are so good now, footy will never again look like the 90s.

I know you weren't talking to me, but this is an interesting point. I agree that it's messier - they're all asked to do more in terms of movement around the ground, defensive pressure etc and it can have an impact. But I do watch most games on the weekend, let's say an average of 7 a week, and I think our forward line is messier than most.

Geelong are held out as the example, but they're maybe the best forward line in the comp so let's exclude them.

When I watch Richmond, Sydney, Brisbane, Port and Carlton (as a representative group of top-half teams) they don't have the dysfunction that the Bulldogs have - particularly when it comes to leads, separation and roles. Every game we would see Naughton, JUH and Weightman contest the same high ball on multiple occasions but I would rarely see something similar with those teams - where they have two KPFs and one medium/small target in the same area flying for the same ball.

Now I think our forward line is potentially a very good one, particularly given the young talls, and this could be a simple fix. But it was an issue last year imo that appeared to me to be something that wasn't really seen in other forward lines. It's also why I was broadly a fan of the Lobb recruitment because I think he's probably going to help that, and lead a bit more intelligently to different areas and drag the tall defenders away from each other.

Caveat to all of that is I don't have any stats to back it up. Just the vibe

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I'm not going to pass judgement on Spangher but it was strange that he was appointed to a major line coaching assistant job without taking an intermediate step of either being a senior coach at a lower level of footy, or working in a less important job within the footy department. Other than legendary players who were ex captains or 300 gamers or whatever, is there any other assistant at AFL level who skipped those steps?

 

[Contador]

I'm not going to pass judgement on Spangher but it was strange that he was appointed to a major line coaching assistant job without taking an intermediate step of either being a senior coach at a lower level of footy, or working in a less important job within the footy department. Other than legendary players who were ex captains or 300 gamers or whatever, is there any other assistant at AFL level who skipped those steps?

When a guy is rated as highly as Spangher is in the industry there's really no need for those extra steps

 

[doggies ftw]

I'm not going to pass judgement on Spangher but it was strange that he was appointed to a major line coaching assistant job without taking an intermediate step of either being a senior coach at a lower level of footy, or working in a less important job within the footy department. Other than legendary players who were ex captains or 300 gamers or whatever, is there any other assistant at AFL level who skipped those steps?

I’d guess even most 300 game players don’t usually jump into line coaching, I’m sure there’s examples out there of guys who have but I can’t really think of one off the top of my head tbh!

 

[hoianbulldog]

From SEN.

The Lions have also appointed Dale Morris as a development coach for 2023, the only change in the club’s coaching structure for the upcoming season

Hopefully learn at another club and come home......same with Boyd and Murph.