Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!

[Wosh]

In the interests of keeping your back and forth shite fights out of match threads so normal people can talk.

Keep it clean and above the shorts
Off topic rubbish clogging up match threads will be moved here, knock yourselves out.

 

[Mr Meow]

You don't even deserve this since you refuse to acknowledge any points I raise, but whatever.

The 2020 season for Richmond was a special case as so much of their season was in finals. They went the long way in finals after going through a shortened COVID H&A: 4 finals compared to 17 H&A (finals made up 20% of the games). A typical premiership season these days is 23 H&A games and 3 finals (so finals make up 12% of the games). Therefore finals games were weighted almost doubly in that season compared to a standard one.

Anyway for 2020: It's close between Neale and Martin.

Neale was miles and miles ahead in H&A.

In 2020 Martin started with a bad final but then had 3 brilliant follow ups. Neale played 2 finals, ranked outside the top 6 players in one game and 2nd BOG in a losing side in the other. Is it actually Neale's fault he didn't get the extra two finals to play in? Is it his fault that Richmond's team had 3 excellent finals, while Brisbane's only had 1 good final? Plug Martin in that choking Brisbane side and he isn't dragging them to a premiership, sorry. Plug Neale into the dominant finals force and of course he would excel.

I can't really answer until you give me answers and thoughts on every point I have raised here.

Bolded are the relevant things you need to think about and articulate your own thoughts on.

 

[Mr Meow]

Cleansweep17 in 2020 Neale played 17 H&A games and 2 finals. So finals made up just 10.5% of his season. He was 2nd BOG in the losing prelim so could hardly have done anything more to "earn" another final. So...about 5% of his season was not outstanding.

Martin played 16 H&A games and 4 finals. So finals made up 20% of his season. He had 42 coaches votes in the regular season; Neale had 93. You can argue that 80% of Martin's season was good but not outstanding. His outstanding finals series helped bridge the gap but his side was also clearly better than Neale's when it came to knockout finals. We saw what Martin was like in the QF when Richmond were poor.

So there are all sorts of problems with automatically saying Martin's season was better. Neale was tracking way ahead and he did all he could in the prelim but his team mates got spanked. The reverse happened with Martin, he played exceptionally well but his team mates bullied their opponents in knockout finals.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Find the posts demanding Miers is a lock for the AA side, rather than being in the conversation for top performing creative half forwards this season. It's acknowledged that these types don't get picked, even if he has raised his goal kicking. Go on, have a try at proving otherwise though.

I’m thread banned and cbf looking through it. You’ve got him in.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Cleansweep17 in 2020 Neale played 17 H&A games and 2 finals. So finals made up just 10.5% of his season. He was 2nd BOG in the losing prelim so could hardly have done anything more to "earn" another final. So...about 5% of his season was not outstanding.

Martin played 16 H&A games and 4 finals. So finals made up 20% of his season. He had 42 coaches votes in the regular season; Neale had 93. You can argue that 80% of Martin's season was good but not outstanding. His outstanding finals series helped bridge the gap but his side was also clearly better than Neale's when it came to knockout finals. We saw what Martin was like in the QF when Richmond were poor.

So there are all sorts of problems with automatically saying Martin's season was better. Neale was tracking way ahead and he did all he could in the prelim but his team mates got spanked. The reverse happened with Martin, he played exceptionally well but his team mates bullied their opponents in knockout finals.

2020

Neale: best player of H&A

Dusty: AA TEAM then smashed his way through finals winning the Finals MVP, NS and flag

So who was better?

If you can’t answer this you are just a coward. Tbh you non-answer is actually an answer anyway.

 

[Mr Meow]

2020

Neale: best player of H&A

Dusty: AA TEAM then smashed his way through finals winning the Finals MVP, NS and flag

So who was better?

If you can’t answer this you are just a coward. Tbh you non-answer is actually an answer anyway.

You're not responding to any points. This is pathetic. I have NEVER seen someone so incapable of nuance or understanding basic logic, explained to them carefully and slowly. Time to just end the discussion then if you are just reducing it to a 3 year old level exchange.

 

[Mr Meow]

I’m thread banned and cbf looking through it. You’ve got him in.

And how does that imply that all Geelong supporters have demanded he is a LOCK?

He is in my best 7 forwards this season as a creator in a balanced forward line. Name your top 10 forwards - mix of talls, crumbing goal sneaks and creators. If Miers is in them he's in the conversation. If he's not you are underrating him.

 

[Mr Meow]

2020

Neale: best player of H&A

Dusty: AA TEAM then smashed his way through finals winning the Finals MVP, NS and flag

So who was better?

If you can’t answer this you are just a coward. Tbh you non-answer is actually an answer anyway.

Just to reiterate you are not comparing apples and oranges as 20% of Martin's season was in finals, while Neale had just 10% of his season in finals and was near BOG in one of them.

The single point at which they had equal opportunities against every opponent, Neale had 93 coaches votes to martin's 42. Martin's TEAM were better so he got to play in two more finals than Neale to start bridging the gap.

You are acting as if Neale also played in 4 finals and flopped in 3 of them. The one final they played against each other, Neale played better. Then Martin got to play in 3 others while Neale was his side's best in the other 1 final he got to play in.

Martin was in a much stronger performing finals side. THAT is what this analysis tells us. Any final his side was NOT dominant in, he was poor. We have 5 different finals series that showed that. So if you plugged him into 2020 Brisbane that year no doubt he would've disappeared like he did 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2022.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You're not responding to any points. This is pathetic. I have NEVER seen someone so incapable of nuance or understanding basic logic, explained to them carefully and slowly. Time to just end the discussion then if you are just reducing it to a 3 year old level exchange.

What f’ing points I said I agree ffs what’s wrong with you?

 

[Cleansweep17]

And how does that imply that all Geelong supporters have demanded he is a LOCK?

He is in my best 7 forwards this season as a creator in a balanced forward line. Name your top 10 forwards - mix of talls, crumbing goal sneaks and creators. If Miers is in them he's in the conversation. If he's not you are underrating him.

Whatever I don’t care you win

 

[Cleansweep17]

Just to reiterate you are not comparing apples and oranges as 20% of Martin's season was in finals, while Neale had just 10% of his season in finals and was near BOG in one of them.

The single point at which they had equal opportunities against every opponent, Neale had 93 coaches votes to martin's 42. Martin's TEAM were better so he got to play in two more finals than Neale to start bridging the gap.

You are acting as if Neale also played in 4 finals and flopped in 3 of them. The one final they played against each other, Neale played better. Then Martin got to play in 3 others while Neale was his side's best in the other 1 final he got to play in.

Martin was in a much stronger performing finals side. THAT is what this analysis tells us. Any final his side was NOT dominant in, he was poor. We have 5 different finals series that showed that. So if you plugged him into 2020 Brisbane that year no doubt he would've disappeared like he did 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2022.

So your final answer is “I don’t know”?

 

[Mr Meow]

Whatever I don’t care you win

Can you even name 10. Do you even know 10 current forwards?

I can forgive your knowledge being so poor before 2014 when you started watching. But you should be up to date on 2024.

 

[Mr Meow]

So you final answer is “I don’t know”?

Your final answer is you refuse to address points that you know undermine your position. I have added nuance that you have been incapable of acknowledging, let alone understanding or rebutting. That's what we call checkmate.

If you fairly made an attempt to go through those points I would have provided you a definitive answer. It's a shame.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Can you even name 10. Do you even know 10 current forwards?

I can forgive your knowledge being so poor before 2014 when you started watching. But you should be up to date on 2024.

No, you win

 

[Mr Meow]

What f’ing points I said I agree ffs what’s wrong with you?

Which points do you agree with from my recent few posts? You are not even reading them. Nothing in them has anything to do with 4-5 elite seasons for Martin.

 

[Mr Meow]

No, you win

You...don't even have your own starting 6 forwards yet you ridicule others. That is just making stuff up, which you have a deep history of. What a guy.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Your final answer is you refuse to address points that you know undermine your position. I have added nuance that you have been incapable of acknowledging, let alone understanding or rebutting. That's what we call checkmate.

If you fairly made an attempt to go through those points I would have provided you a definitive answer. It's a shame.

Please repeat the points, because I have no idea what you are referring to. I said I agree with you.

If you say I’m refusing 1 more time when I’m literally wanting to answer the question you’ve got serious problems.

 

[PhatBoy]

It’s in the 2024 AA thread.

Also I’ll ask you as well. Who was the best player of the 2020 season?

No it isn’t mate.

A handful of people have suggested that of Cats players, he’s one of those who could be in the mix. No one has said he’s in the team or the squad.

Jeremy Cameron, Tyson Stengle, Zach Guthrie, Max Holmes, Gryan Miers and Tom Stewart at various stages have all been thereabouts but Cameron is the only one you would say would be definitely in a squad or team and few if any cats fans or fans of other teams would disagree.

Lachie Neale. He was outstanding. What’s your point.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You...don't even have your own starting 6 forwards yet you ridicule others. That is just making stuff up, which you have a deep history of. What a guy.

Yeah yeah whatever mate I don’t care

 

[Mr Meow]

Please repeat the points, because I have no idea what you are referring to. I said I agree with you.

If you say I’m refusing 1 more time when I’m literally wanting to answer the question you’ve got serious problems.

This is brilliant. You have no idea what I'm talking about or what points I've raised, but agree with them. And have somehow lost them when they are the exact posts you have quoted, with sections bolded, and gone "HAHAH answer da question fool or you LOSE!!" All of the points about the nature of Martin's and Neale's 2020 seasons are right there in the posts. Either you have comprehension issues or are being deliberately evasive/ignorant. Don't ask a question if you don't want discussion.

 

[Cleansweep17]

This is brilliant. You have no idea what I'm talking about or what points I've raised, but agree with them. And have somehow lost them when they are the exact posts you have quoted, with sections bolded, and gone "HAHAH answer da question fool or you LOSE!!" All of the points about the nature of Martin's and Neale's 2020 seasons are right there in the posts. Either you have comprehension issues or are being deliberately evasive/ignorant. Don't ask a question if you don't want discussion.

I thought I answered them, but I clearly missed a question. Can you please say which one(s) I missed so I can answer it?

 

[Mr Meow]

No it isn’t mate.

A handful of people have suggested that of Cats players, he’s one of those who could be in the mix. No one has said he’s in the team or the squad.

Jeremy Cameron, Tyson Stengle, Zach Guthrie, Max Holmes, Gryan Miers and Tom Stewart at various stages have all been thereabouts but Cameron is the only one you would say would be definitely in a squad or team and few if any cats fans or fans of other teams would disagree.

Lachie Neale. He was outstanding. What’s your point.

Neale had a run of 17 outstanding H&A games, 1 great final (near BOG when his side was poor) and 1 final where he was not in the best handful of players.

Martin had a run of 16 good H&A games, 1 poor final (when his side was poor) and 3 great ones where his team also earned him those extra finals.

Somehow this is being used to bash Neale over the head of, a player who got 93 coaches votes in the H&A and then had one outstanding final that followed one mediocre final.

The fact that Martin's finals made up 20% of his games that season, while Neale's made up just 10% of his, has eluded Sweepy. Not an even playing field. Not an apples for apples comparison. Martin/Dangerfield finals in 2017/2019/2020 is more of an even playing field (Martin easily won). As they played the same amount of finals as each other and also Martin was better in the finals they played directly against each other.

 

[Mr Meow]

I thought I answered them, but I clearly missed a question. Can you please say which one(s) I missed so I can answer it?

They are all there. Consider this a reading challenge. I won't insult you if you just can't find them or don't understand the points. They are all in direct replies to your Neale/Martin question.

 

[Cleansweep17]

They are all there. Consider this a reading challenge. I won't insult you if you just can't find them or don't understand the points. They are all in direct replies to your Neale/Martin question.

It’s ok we know what you are doing. You don’t want me to answer because then you’d have to answer mine.

I know you won’t say Dusty, if it was clearly Neale you’d say Neale. Based on your points about being in different strength sides your final answer is “I don’t know”, correct?

 

[Mr Meow]

It’s ok we know what you are doing. You don’t want me to answer because then you’d have to answer mine.

I know you won’t say Dusty, if it was clearly Neale you’d say Neale. Based on your points about being in different strength sides your final answer is “I don’t know”, correct?

You're refusing to engage in discussion and won't acknowledge anything. Discussion leads to answers. I do want you to answer.

Let's look at their seasons. Neale was more than twice as good for the 17 game H&A (93 coaches votes to 42). Then Neale is capped at two finals - a mediocre one and an excellent one. If Martin was in the same situation and was poor in the QF, outstanding in the SF but Richmond were poor and got knocked out he wouldn't have played the extra two finals. Would he have had close to Neale's season if that occurred? No.

This is what happened to Neale, knocked out in final 2 despite being outstanding, so no more finals to play. Thus you are actually just marking Neale down for being in a worse performing knockout finals team.

H&A they had EQUAL opportunities to perform, with the same number of games. A level playing field. He didn't need Brisbane to win in round 12 to play rounds 13-17.

You will pretend to not understand this or deflect, but these are the facts. You can't retrospectively mark players seasons down if their side is poor in a knockout final and they don't get to play in more of them. If Neale's team mates were better and he gets to star in a grand final the following week, you would rank Neale higher...because his team mates were good enough to earn him the extra game. If Martin's team mates are poorer in the PF and Richmond lose by a goal...he doesn't get to play in and star in a GF. So you are talking about luck to create the circumstances.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You're refusing to engage in discussion and won't acknowledge anything. Discussion leads to answers. I do want you to answer.

Let's look at their seasons. Neale was more than twice as good for the 17 game H&A (93 coaches votes to 42). Then Neale is capped at two finals - a mediocre one and an excellent one. If Martin was in the same situation and was poor in the QF, outstanding in the SF but Richmond were poor and got knocked out he wouldn't have played the extra two finals. Would he have had close to Neale's season if that occurred? No.

This is what happened to Neale, knocked out in final 2 despite being outstanding, so no more finals to play. Thus you are actually just marking Neale down for being in a worse performing knockout finals team.

H&A they had EQUAL opportunities to perform, with the same number of games. A level playing field. He didn't need Brisbane to win in round 12 to play rounds 13-17.

You will pretend to not understand this or deflect, but these are the facts. You can't retrospectively mark players seasons down if their side is poor in a knockout final and they don't get to play in more of them. If Neale's team mates were better and he gets to star in a grand final the following week, you would rank Neale higher...because his team mates were good enough to earn him the extra game. If Martin's team mates are poorer in the PF and Richmond lose by a goal...he doesn't get to play in and star in a GF. So you are talking about luck to create the circumstances.

Ok I understand your points.

So using your reasoning in your comment is your answer

A) Dusty

B) Neale

C) I don’t know due to various factors

I am asking your opinion. It is a simple question