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- #151
Thought he was BOG that game.
Has Gary Ablett hurt his all time standing by moving to Gold Coast?
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Thought he was BOG that game.
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- #152
judd went from apparently the games best player at west coast to falling well behind ablett in a general consensus once he joined Carlton. Also remember Carlton is one of the competitions most supported clubs, Gold Coast were lucky to have 500 genuine fans at the time.
once again I’m not saying you get marked down for not Having the opportunity to play footy in finals, I’m saying you get marked up for playing great footy in finals, and the more often you do it the higher you get marked up because your having a bigger impact and influence overall across your career in these games than you are during a home and away game.
on the topic of riewoldt to an extent it actually has. 3 grand finals for 3 goals... and one of the biggest grand final blunders in AFL history when he got smothered in the square that all fans remember. People would compare these things when sizing him up against ablett senior who kicked 9 goals in a losing grand final or Leigh Matthews, so absolutely.
on the topic of riewoldt to an extent it actually has. 3 grand finals for 3 goals... and one of the biggest grand final blunders in AFL history when he got smothered in the square that all fans remember. People would compare these things when sizing him up against ablett senior who kicked 9 goals in a losing grand final or Leigh Matthews, so absolutely.
Would he have been a greater champion Of the game if he came out and kicked 4 goals on Taylor and won st kilda The flag?? Definitely
I don’t see someone as having played well in 12 finals series as having achieved anythung greater than someone who’s played 6.
as far as their actual play and legacy as a player goes, I mean. Obviously someone with 8 flags has ‘achieved’ more than someone with half as many
To draw an odd parallel it’s like people who say Nadal is only in Federers league because of all the French opens he’s won. Yes he hasn’t won as many elsewhere as Federer has but he’s done it more than often enough to prove its no fluke. 1 win elsewhere and 12 French opens could be looked on as a clay courter fluking it. But he’s won 4 us, 2 Wimbledon and an AO
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- #155
Fair enough point of view and I’m not going to really argue with it your entitled to it. From my point of view if you play consistently at a higher level such as finals footy, for a more prolonged period of time and consistently prove yourself on the big stage more often then you deserve the extra praise.
A players standing in the game is sometimes partly due to the team he played in and the opportunities he had
- Dec 19, 2015
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Yeah I agree. It possibly shouldn't be a factor but it is. I think it helps with hindsight too. If a player is a great player in home and away season but rarely plays finals, their teams fans know their worth and remember them as a player but the wider football community won't.
More supporters watch most finals games and particularly grand finals so players who play well are witnessed by everyone and remembered.
You will also be more likely to rewatch finals and grand finals. Not too many regular season games will be rewatched. This means younger generations who missed the player in the prime might still watch old grand finals etc and think s**t that bloke was good, meanwhile no ones watching replays of Melbourne vs Stkilda in 1994.
In time more of Gary's performances that will be watched and remembered will be his time with Geelong before Gold Coast.
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- #157
Agree with everything.
Is it fair that players are judged based on finals performances more highly than regular season games?? Yes and no.... it’s inevitable with the system we have in place that glorifies finals football that we will not just judge teams ultimately based off this but also the players based off it.
I even look simply at our own footy club and we are all guilty of it right here. I’d say dangerfield is a better player than bartel was... both brownlow medalists but dangerfield elevated himself to the games best player for a period of time.
who will geelong fans recall in greater light?? Who will they talk about more?? Which will be featured in more geelong household replays to come??
I know I will be watching all our finals games 07-11 including the grand final he won a norm smith in, also the collingwood 07 final where he got 30+ touches and that amazing effort on the wing in the last quarter against two collingwood players.. or the goal from outside 50 he kicked against collingwood in the last quarter to ice the game in the grand final...
Even the great Paul Chapman.. did we all not elevate him that 2% more highly due to his stellar grand final performance in 09?? What if he never played that game??
do I have these sort of nostalgias about dangerfield?? Not really...
For that I would struggle immensely to even pick dangerfield over bartel if I had to do an imaginary phantom draft for a hypothetical side... these sort of memories of players is a very strong imprint
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- Sep 3, 2011
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I am unaware. However, Sydney grabbed him using a long term deal, marketing dollars and COLA. So they did guzzump GWS. And Buddy was and is about the cash.
Opposition fans loved GAJ as soon as he joined GC with far less reservation than when he was at Geelong. Why? Because it’s easy to love a contained champion, someone who plays exceptionally well but is ultimately not a threat to anyone else. People will hold their own argument as to whether moving to GC diminished his standing in the game, if they want to base their criteria on his individual performance. One thing that is undeniable however, is that GAJ almost completely obliterated his IMPACT on the game while he was at GC, because no matter how you want to spin the stats or twist the perspective - the Suns were collectively hot garbage for almost the whole time regardless of Ablett’s contribution. Truly a scenario of a cat, declawed.
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- #160
That was bloody well summed up. Poetic
You are using finals as your main form of argument though.
Of course Geelong supporters are going to rate Bartel very highly. We watched him blossom into an elite big game performer.
Ask a neutral however, most will pick Dangerfield even at this stage of his career.
I doubt many people know how many finals Matthew Richardson played in. Truth be told, he was poor in all five of them but no one pushes him down the all time list because of that.
Bob Skilton's statistics are off the charts. Widely regarded as one of the best ever rovers. Would a grand final victory really elevate his status though? I don't think it would. He played out his career in a team languishing on the bottom of the ladder for many years.
Ablett had already achieved more than any of these players before his move to Gold Coast. Can't understand why people would think his greatness has been hit because of the team he played for.
I could even go the other way with this, what if Hawthorn got him and he plays in all those grand finals and countless finals . . . is he still judged as highly or is he benefiting from playing in a champion team just as Jason Dunstall did when he first began his career?
I think like Chris Judd, to actually make such a dramatic difference to the teams they walked in on, speaks volumes to them as superstar players.
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- #162
For starters, what is your position on this?? Only an hour or so ago you quoted me when i was talking up guthries season and proceeded to tell me it doesnt matter because he is going to play s**t in finals, now your going on a rant here telling me how playing good finals footy is irrelevant and doesnt increase your standing in the game. So which is it?? Im not going to argue with someone who is too confused about his own point of view.
Guthrie has never been regarded as an elite footballer and further more, his standing in the game will not change as he has already featured in over 11 finals and been average to poor in many of them. He is following his career trajectory as a league footballer.
Do you regard Jason Johannisen a better footballer today because he received the Norm Smith Medal? I sure hope you don't.
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- #164
Once again you keep confusing yourself. First you tell me we should judge guthrie lower and criticise because he has historically played poor in finals, then you quote another post saying playing good finals footy doesnt elevate your standing, then you quote me again now saying we should judge guthrie less because of his prior historical finals games as less of a player while telling me same post we shouldnt think higher of johannisen for winning a norm smith medal. Lol.
You cant in the same post say judge guthrie as lesser for his finals historically but dont judge johannisen higher for his norm smith medal In the same post.
I know your trying to troll but your posts are a bit embarrasing.
If you dislike differing opinions, perhaps don't start many threads then?
I believe it's very good discussion myself as Ablett will retire at the end of this year and the very same questions being asked in here will be asked post retirement.
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- #166
Absolutely think its a great discussion, just dont contradict yourself when you make points. Its an old thread mind you so ny chain of thoughts could have changed since then as many others who posted in here back then
- Mar 22, 2011
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Well, here's hoping. He's got one last chance to do this. Over to you
It’s a simple fact that when Ablett went to Gold Coast he lost the opportunity to enhance his reputation in big games on the biggest stage.
Had he stayed at Geelong he likely would have snagged another premiership but also played in 6-12 more finals between 2011-2016 when he was arguably still the best player in the AFL.
That doesn’t change how good he was but there’s a level of acknowledgement you can get balling out in finals that you don’t get in the home and away season.
Had he stayed at Geelong he likely would have snagged another premiership but also played in 6-12 more finals between 2011-2016 when he was arguably still the best player in the AFL.
That doesn’t change how good he was but there’s a level of acknowledgement you can get balling out in finals that you don’t get in the home and away season.
If Martin never plays another finals series after tomorrow will anyone bother saying ‘pity he was with an irrelevant team until 2017.’ I doubt it.
As long as you play well enough often enough to prove it’s not a fluke then your reputation is set.
- Mar 22, 2011
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It's a little different as what happened more recently (last few years of a career) is what sticks in peoples minds more so.
Well, here's hoping. He's got one last chance to do this. Over to you
If Martin was traded on to Adelaide and he played six years there while Richmond won one more premiership and consistently made finals then plenty would be say pity he went to an irrelevant team.
Given the fickle and frankly f***en stupid mentality of most football fans his legacy would probably revolve around ‘just looking good because he was in a strong team his whole career’ if he never went to the Suns.
The biggest tick against his career is the fact that he played some of the best football anyone has ever seen surrounded by 21 passengers.
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