Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[Meteoric Rise]

As far as I can tell, there are three players in the league that average more than 20 possessions and 1 goal a game

They are

1. Patracca
2. Shai Bolton
3. Trigger

Maybe it is more simple than I imagined then. Perhaps it is just based on the combination of Dusty's readily available statistics.

Dusty has the 87th most disposals in the comp this year on average. There are probably a dozen ahead of him that rely on kick ins to be ahead of him, so he might be 75th for disposals in general play.

Of those ahead of Dusty for disposals Petracca, DeGoey, Mason Wood and Bolton average 1 or more goals per game, but only Bolton at 1.2 goal average is higher than Martin's 1.1 average. Those other 4 are ahead of Dusty for goal assists though. Some are way ahead.

It still brings me back to thinking that if Hoyne is rating Dusty up with these type of players it must be due to the nature of how and where he is winning his contests.

 

[JackOutback]

Lol. Supercoach ratings

Lol. Champion Data.

Stats never tell the whole story. Dustin Martin isn't currently in the top 10 players in the league, it's laughable to suggest otherwise.

 

[Fadge]

As far as I can tell, there are three players in the league that average more than 20 possessions and 1 goal a game

They are

1. Patracca
2. Shai Bolton
3. Trigger

What is it with this magical 20 and 1 statistic?

Not that it really matters, but a simple look at the data suggests you've omitted De Goey and Wood.

Jeremy Cameron averages 18.8 and just under 4, so maybe C. Scott should be telling him to focus more on cheap possessions and less on the scoreboard so as he can join the exclusive 20 and 1 club...

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Lol. Champion Data.

Stats never tell the whole story. Dustin Martin isn't currently in the top 10 players in the league, it's laughable to suggest otherwise.

Either is Buddy Franklin. Does that make him a bad player too?

 

[Fadge]

Either is Buddy Franklin. Does that make him a bad player too?

FMD.

Who in this thread has suggested Martin is a 'bad player'?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Lol. Champion Data.

Stats never tell the whole story. Dustin Martin isn't currently in the top 10 players in the league, it's laughable to suggest otherwise.

Yet a man in a position to make a well informed opinion and whose reputation rests on being credible is suggesting it.

Stats don't tell the whole story this is right. But nothing tells the whole story and stats probably come as close as anything to doing so - if you read them correctly.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

What is it with this magical 20 and 1 statistic?

Not that it really matters, but a simple look at the data suggests you've omitted De Goey and Wood.

Jeremy Cameron averages 18.8 and just under 4, so maybe C. Scott should be telling him to focus more on cheap possessions and less on the scoreboard so as he can join the exclusive 20 and 1 club...

Cameron is leading the rise of the modern uncontested beast. He is fed the ball at all costs and has about 12 Geelong players blocking for him around every stoppage to try to get him into uncontested situations he requires.

Please do not mention players like this in the Dustin Martin GOAT thread, it is totally inappropriate.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

FMD.

Who in this thread has suggested Martin is a 'bad player'?

Look Fadge, my hips don't lie. Judging a player by his game by game performance at the end of his career is not that relevant to the overall discussion.

 

[JackOutback]

Either is Buddy Franklin. Does that make him a bad player too?

No one is saying either of those things. Martin is a star of the modern game, one of the best finals performers of all time. But he's not the GOAT and longevity is a part of that. Franklin is 36, Martin is 31. One player's decline came much sooner than the others and these are factors when determining the 'greatest of all time', as well as length at the top etc.

Martin in is the same tier as Fyfe, Pendlebury, Dangerfield etc. He's not in the tier that includes GAJ, Buddy, Judd. There's a whole bunch of players like Goodes, Buckley, Hird that may exist between those tiers. That's before we even get to players from pre-2000.

 

[tiger_tough]

Lynch still in moon boot so I reckon another 9-10 weeks minimum. At best R17 which doesn’t give much time - if we are out of finals contention they may almost put him on ice rest of season.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

He hasn't been in a moonboot for 2 weeks and said after the game on Friday night he's about 5 weeks away.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

No one is saying either of those things. Martin is a star of the modern game, one of the best finals performers of all time. But he's not the GOAT and longevity is a part of that. Franklin is 36, Martin is 31. One player's decline came much sooner than the others and these are factors when determining the 'greatest of all time', as well as length at the top etc.

Martin in is the same tier as Fyfe, Pendlebury, Dangerfield etc. He's not in the tier that includes GAJ, Buddy, Judd. There's a whole bunch of players like Goodes, Buckley, Hird that may exist between those tiers. That's before we even get to players from pre-2000.

I think you are misreading Martin being seriously injured and otherwise hampered as him being in decline. Anyone watching him closely this season would know key parts of his game are as good as ever, and now his kicking touch seems to be returning to full steam and he is spending a bit more time in the middle, he is looking more like his normal self. This is not a player in decline.

 

[Fadge]

I think you are misreading Martin being seriously injured and otherwise hampered as him being in decline. Anyone watching him closely this season would know key parts of his game are as good as ever, and now his kicking touch seems to be returning to full steam and he is spending a bit more time in the middle, he is looking more like his normal self. This is not a player in decline.

Really?

His game is as good as ever, and he's been in the best three players on the ground once in 8 games so far this season?

And this is a player you're arguing is in the conversation as the GOAT?

 

[Fadge]

Cameron is leading the rise of the modern uncontested beast. He is fed the ball at all costs and has about 12 Geelong players blocking for him around every stoppage to try to get him into uncontested situations he requires.

Please do not mention players like this in the Dustin Martin GOAT thread, it is totally inappropriate.

Except it's highly likely J. Cameron ends his career with a higher ranking in the GOAT list than the man this thread is about.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Really?

His game is as good as ever, and he's been in the best three players on the ground once in 8 games so far this season?

And this is a player you're arguing is in the conversation as the GOAT?

Being as good as he has ever been for Dustin Martin means being as good as the best all round season ever recorded - 2017. Ie, automatic GOAT.

He is as good as usual. Richmond clearly had some issues with the way their forward line functioned earlier this season. Those issues appear to be correcting themselves now, allowing some of our forward line stars like Martin and Bolton to shine a bit more. Martin was also clearly a bit rusty in terms of his A game, but we can see the swing thoughts coming back together for him now. I expect from here he will just perform at the usual standard we have come to expect from him over the years. If he was in decline he would be getting worse as the season progresses, not better.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Except it's highly likely J. Cameron ends his career with a higher ranking in the GOAT list than the man this thread is about.

I didn't give you sufficient credit for the comedy element you have added to this thread Fadge, that is ******* gold from you.

 

[Fadge]

Being as good as he has ever been for Dustin Martin means being as good as the best all round season ever recorded - 2017. Ie, automatic GOAT.

He is as good as usual. Richmond clearly had some issues with the way their forward line functioned earlier this season. Those issues appear to be correcting themselves now, allowing some of our forward line stars like Martin and Bolton to shine a bit more. Martin was also clearly a bit rusty in terms of his A game, but we can see the swing thoughts coming back together for him now. I expect from here he will just perform at the usual standard we have come to expect from him over the years. If he was in decline he would be getting worse as the season progresses, not better.

One game where he's named in the top 3 players on the ground, and both him and Richmond are 'back in business'.

Wowee.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

One game where he's named in the top 3 players on the ground, and both him and Richmond are 'back in business'.

Wowee.

You might want to take the blinkers off Fadge, you are racing erratically. Players in serious decline don't sit second in the AFL for winning offensive 1 v 1 contests. They don't have Daniel Hoyne declaring their performance is in the top 10 in the AFL this season. They don't beat Tom Stewart in multiple contests and convert those into goals. They don't have their coach publicly declaring that the general football public don't understand the less noticeable work they are doing.

Richmond's prospects, who knows, we would need to get better, but there is some crucially key players to return, Nankervis soon and perhaps Lynch later. And some other players who could freshen the team up later in the season. I am not overly bullish but I wouldn't be counting us out just yet.

But Dusty I am bullish on, his high performance will be easier for people to notice as the season rolls on.

 

[Mr Meow]

It doesn't stop you from giving a view as to why you think CD are placing Dustin Martin in the top 10 players this season. Which, by the way, doesn't look right to me either based on what I can know. But why do you think Hoyne might be saying this?

I'm not sure how many CD guys there are, they will have their views. I was just reading that a Champion Data guy on Sen was asked "are the Tigers back?".

He mentioned a win to the Tigers was expected given Geelong's injuries and inexperience (what a bloody sook!).

He also mentioned had Geelong kicked straight in the first half, they'd have been 2-3 goals up at half time.

He said stats wise, Tigers have only improved slightly over the last month so he doesn't think they're back (yet).

So it sounds like Martin and the Tigers have some more impressing to do if they are to truly "be back". Knock off Port next week please, with a Martin bag of 6 and I'll be happy. Essendon before them aren't actually very good although I'm impartial on that one.

 

[Mr Meow]

Dusty isn't winning another Norm Smith, unless he gets traded to a contender at the end of the year, so the original question isn't valid.

Does he need to win another Norm Smith to be considered?

I think he is one of the best "Big Game" players I have seen but does that mean he is the greatest player of all time?
Someone may have been a freak, though unfortunately didn't play in an era where their team was worthy of a grand final.

Dusty as an individual player is amazing.
But so has Buddy over his long career.

Do we rate the greatest player on big game opportunities, on highlights, on club B&F, on consistency of brilliance, or longevity.

Scott Pendlebury would have been one of the most consistently great players for nearly two decades, week in, week out.
I wouldn't consider him the greatest player of all time but the point is there are many variables to this intriguing question.

Most neutral supporters are bored with this topic or view it entirely as a Geelong/Richmond Bay style thread. But above is basically the neutral consensus and coincidentally where Geelong supporters tend to sit anyway, despite the claims of "saltiness". But well articulated here and I noticed another commonsense poster with non Geelong or Richmond affiliation added something similar soon after.

 

[Mr Meow]

Being as good as he has ever been for Dustin Martin means being as good as the best all round season ever recorded - 2017. Ie, automatic GOAT.

He is as good as usual. Richmond clearly had some issues with the way their forward line functioned earlier this season. Those issues appear to be correcting themselves now, allowing some of our forward line stars like Martin and Bolton to shine a bit more. Martin was also clearly a bit rusty in terms of his A game, but we can see the swing thoughts coming back together for him now. I expect from here he will just perform at the usual standard we have come to expect from him over the years. If he was in decline he would be getting worse as the season progresses, not better.

It's more respectable to just say those two have recently picked up their form and impact and it's helped Richmond's potency greatly. It's beneath us to imply Martin can only perform well when Richmond are up and about, and that he will automatically suffer when they are under the cosh. Like Geelong on Friday, against Melbourne Martin could've won the game but missed his shots. When he's back to his clinical best, he remains dangerous. Long may it continue.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I'm not sure how many CD guys there are, they will have their views. I was just reading that a Champion Data guy on Sen was asked "are the Tigers back?".

He mentioned a win to the Tigers was expected given Geelong's injuries and inexperience (what a bloody sook!).

He also mentioned had Geelong kicked straight in the first half, they'd have been 2-3 goals up at half time.

He said stats wise, Tigers have only improved slightly over the last month so he doesn't think they're back (yet).

So it sounds like Martin and the Tigers have some more impressing to do if they are to truly "be back". Knock off Port next week please, with a Martin bag of 6 and I'll be happy. Essendon before them aren't actually very good although I'm impartial on that one.

Almost every team is a threat to Richmond. And we are a threat to every team. Our injury list remains bad with 10-12 missing across the whole list. If that doesn't correct itself then I don't think we will be doing much, as it restricts our ability to freshen the team up later in the season.

The CD guy you refer to is Daniel Hoyne, the same bloke who has given the view based on their stats that Dusty is in the top 10 players in the AFL this season. But if the team can keep its head above water through this middle part of the season, some of our forward stars like Lynch(if he gets anywhere near back to his best) Martin and Bolton could trouble teams later in the season. Remembering also Hopper and Taranto will be better assimilated into the team as the season progresses.

Top 4 looks a long way off but if the club keeps sticking to the 7 point plan I sent them after round 7 then top 2 is likely.

 

[Fadge]

Top 4 looks a long way off but if the club keeps sticking to the 7 point plan I sent them after round 7 then top 2 is likely.

I hope the 7 point plan included references to the ARC, Mason Cox and Kebab joints?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I hope the 7 point plan included references to the ARC, Mason Cox and Kebab joints?

Come on Fadge, you know me, I KEEP IT SIMPLE. It is a very simple 7 point plan that virtually guarantees a top 2 finish. There is absolutely no allusion to any obscure incident in my 7 point plan, no need.

I am not sure I should share it with you though because apart from delivering Grand Final victories on time and on budget, Collingwood copies everything Richmond does chapter and verse. I am not sure Richmond would want this ingenious 7 point plan falling into the wrong hands.

 

[Fadge]

Come on Fadge, you know me, I KEEP IT SIMPLE. It is a very simple 7 point plan that virtually guarantees a top 2 finish. There is absolutely no allusion to any obscure incident in my 7 point plan, no need.

Wow, I've learnt a new word today!

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Wow, I've learnt a new word today!

Read my post #8323 again, I have added more as to why I probably cannot reveal my ingenious 7 point plan to you.