Player Watch Josh Smith (Delisted 2018)

[DaVe86]

He will play r1. Where he fits in im not sure as i cant find a spot for him, but he will play along with Phillips. Both have been sensational this pre season.

Another top line game from Smith yesterday with plenty of the ball, using it well and also pushing forward for a goal

 

[Quicky]

He will play r1. Where he fits in im not sure as i cant find a spot for him, but he will play along with Phillips. Both have been sensational this pre season.

Another top line game from Smith yesterday with plenty of the ball, using it well and also pushing forward for a goal

I liked Smiths efforts to create an option for his team mates. He works very hard to link up for the team.

 

[Scodog10]

Buckley is open about his admiration for Smith and a couple of times last year, Bucks had a go at more senior players, by pointing out that Smith in his first few games was able to always be where he was supposed to be. Considering this, what you're viewing as a lack of defensive accountability may very well be playing the zone he's instructed to play rather than peeling out of the zone and thus destroying it by going man on man.

You mean the zone that had the second highest score against through the practice match series? Players the ilk of Smith and Maynard tightening up will see us improve out of sight. It was also no coincidence that Smith looked good forward of the ball either...

I'm not overly concerned with our ability to score because our midfield will provide enough in transition, but there's no hiding from our ability to be exposed badly on the counter. Our play will be the spare in defense to try and hide the poorer defebders I just wouldn't count on it myself.

 

[CFC2010]

You mean the zone that had the second highest score against through the practice match series? Players the ilk of Smith and Maynard tightening up will see us improve out of sight. It was also no coincidence that Smith looked good forward of the ball either...

I'm not overly concerned with our ability to score because our midfield will provide enough in transition, but there's no hiding from our ability to be exposed badly on the counter. Our play will be the spare in defense to try and hide the poorer defebders I just wouldn't count on it myself.

Keep in mind Maynard had a stinker.........I didn't follow Smiths defensive work closely but his link work was first rate IMO.

 

[sr36]

You mean the zone that had the second highest score against through the practice match series? Players the ilk of Smith and Maynard tightening up will see us improve out of sight. It was also no coincidence that Smith looked good forward of the ball either...

I'm not upholding the zone or the instructions that Smith is receiving, I'm just suggesting that judging by the praise of coaches, it sounds like Smith is following instructions. If his instructions are to be unaccountable to an individual player and to mark territory, you can't have a go at him for being unaccountable.

 

[Scodog10]

Keep in mind Maynard had a stinker.........I didn't follow Smiths defensive work closely but his link work was first rate IMO.

Maynard has stinkers once a month so that doesn't bother me he just isn't a good defender which is his issue in our back 6. You can cover that if the rest of the group are great defenders, but they aren't.

The reason Smith is so good on the spread as a defender is that he doesn't care where his opponent is and we get exposed going the other way when that hard running doesn't pay off.

As a group we don't have the balance of offense and defense across the park or skills to roll the dice the way they do, but we continue to run with the zone that Smith apparently works well in. All the while we see cricket scores against...

If we continue with this sort of set up we will at least be fun to watch. That's a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see Maynard and Smith sacrificing their game more defensively. If we become a 2-3 goal better team defensively by them getting 5-10 less possessions we'd all cop that, surely?

 

[Scodog10]

I'm not upholding the zone or the instructions that Smith is receiving, I'm just suggesting that judging by the praise of coaches, it sounds like Smith is following instructions. If his instructions are to be unaccountable to an individual player and to mark territory, you can't have a go at him for being unaccountable.

Apparently I'm not able to chastise the coach either according to the Wells thread? Looks like no one at the club is to be held to account these days and mediocrity is to reign!

FWIW this has been a long held view re Smith well before the coaching group pumped up his tyres for how well his unaccountability worked in our zone.

 

[sr36]

Apparently I'm not able to chastise the coach either according to the Wells thread? Looks like no one at the club is to be held to account these days and mediocrity is to reign!

FWIW this has been a long held view re Smith well before the coaching group pumped up his tyres for how well his unaccountability worked in our zone.

I'm happy for you to be critical of the coach for coaching matters. I've been critical of him since early 2012, but to chastise him for being honest about Wells's chances of playing 20 games this year seems pretty misdirected to me.

Most teams only play 4 genuine forwards and thus 4 genuine defenders - the other 10 players on the field are basically ruck rovers, some start in the middle some start behind the ball and some start ahead of the ball - some play more inside, some play more outside. I do agree that Smith is unsuited to playing as an accountable defender, due to a lack of pace. But he is suited to playing as an outside ruck rover, be that starting behind or in front of the ball. Like the coaching staff, my preference would be behind the ball as I think that the guys in front of the ball need a few more tricks than Smith has as they're often outnumbered, because most teams play more players behind rather than in front of the ball.

 

[Gone Critical]

Maynard has stinkers once a month so that doesn't bother me he just isn't a good defender which is his issue in our back 6. You can cover that if the rest of the group are great defenders, but they aren't.

The reason Smith is so good on the spread as a defender is that he doesn't care where his opponent is and we get exposed going the other way when that hard running doesn't pay off.

As a group we don't have the balance of offense and defense across the park or skills to roll the dice the way they do, but we continue to run with the zone that Smith apparently works well in. All the while we see cricket scores against...

If we continue with this sort of set up we will at least be fun to watch. That's a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see Maynard and Smith sacrificing their game more defensively. If we become a 2-3 goal better team defensively by them getting 5-10 less possessions we'd all cop that, surely?

I don't see Smith and Maynard as the defensive liabilities you conclude they are. I still see our troubles with kicking skills, those midfield and half forward turnover that creates and our struggles from clearances as the bigger reasons we are heavily scored against. Of course all of us are speculating as we don't have the details of our game plan to make a proper assessment but that would be my take.

 

[jackcass]

Scodog10 I hadn't considered him as a high half forward either.
His last season in the NEAFL was as a midfielder after playing backline the year before, (as a minimum).
I believe they saw an opportunity to play a kid, (in games) who can hit a target in a familiar position and one we need kicking skills in.
He may well end up further up the ground, think he'd struggle to land the HHF possy given we have so many options at the moment.

Smith, and Phillips for that matter, seem ideally suited to the wings where they can use their running power and their lack of defensive ability isn't as exploitable by opposition clubs. Lots of competition for those wing spots as well though with Sidey, Varcoe, Crisp, Aish, WHE among the options. Smith as the loose player in defense also has some merit but that role ideally goes to someone with better marking like Langdon, Howe, or Scharenberg.

Difficulty for the selectors is that both Phillips and Smith have earned a spot for round 1 through a very good JLT series, yet you still have to fit them both into the 22 in terms of position and from a team balance perspective.

 

[Gone Critical]

Smith, and Phillips for that matter, seem ideally suited to the wings where they can use there running power and their lack of defensive ability isn't as exploitable by opposition clubs. Lots of competition for those wing spots as well though with Sidey, Varcoe, Crisp, Aish, WHE among the options. Smith as the loose player in defense also has some merit but that role ideally goes to someone with better marking like Langdon, Howe, or Scharenberg.

Difficulty for the selectors is that both Phillips and Smith have earned a spot for round 1 through a very good JLT series, yet you still have to fit them both into the 22 in terms of position and from a team balance perspective.

Especially re Smith his 7th in the Copeland last year and JLT form means he is locked into the 22 for now. Clearly he is playing the role the coaches ask and plan for him hence the Copeland finish and the high recent rating from Bucks.

 

[jackcass]

Especially re Smith his 7th in the Copeland last year and JLT form means he is locked into the 22 for now. Clearly he is playing the role the coaches ask and plan for him hence the Copeland finish and the high recent rating from Bucks.

I don't read as much into the Copeland result as to me it's skewed due to the injuries but his form has been very solid.

I've been fairly consistent though in my concerns about his defensive 1v1 game, ditto Phillips.

 

[DaVe86]

You mean the zone that had the second highest score against through the practice match series? Players the ilk of Smith and Maynard tightening up will see us improve out of sight. It was also no coincidence that Smith looked good forward of the ball either...

I'm not overly concerned with our ability to score because our midfield will provide enough in transition, but there's no hiding from our ability to be exposed badly on the counter. Our play will be the spare in defense to try and hide the poorer defebders I just wouldn't count on it myself.

We would need the inside footage, but a lot of the transition goals would be due to the fault of the midfield to get back quick enough. It's hard to blame the back 6 in these scenarios. But on other occasions positioning was quite horrible. Our backline did at times look really exposed.

I think a big issue that I saw from the JLT was that we gave up a lot of easy turnovers in defence from poor decision making. Clearly we cannot afford such glaring mistakes in the back half.

However, I am somewhat heartened that we performed strongly throughout the JLT yet were heavily beaten in clearances and conceded a lot of goals on turnover. It suggests to me that if we can tighten up our clearance work and also be smarter with our ball movement across half back, then we are pretty well placed. In the end, both these areas are fixable considering we have a star-studded midfield and also quite good ball users across half back now.

 

[Gone Critical]

I don't read as much into the Copeland result as to me it's skewed due to the injuries but his form has been very solid.

I've been fairly consistent though in my concerns about his defensive 1v1 game, ditto Phillips.

You can argue some of the skew goes against him. Of the top 10 placegetters only he and Adams played less than 20 games and if you measure votes per games he goes past Howe (5th) and is very close to Grundy who finished 4th. For someone to come in as a rookie and settle into AFL its an impressive showing.

 

[jackcass]

You can argue some of the skew goes against him. Of the top 10 placegetters only he and Adams played less than 20 games and if you measure votes per games he goes past Howe (5th) and is very close to Grundy who finished 4th. For someone to come in as a rookie and settle into AFL its an impressive showing.

Yeah, was think more the absence of Swan and Elliott who I'd have as monty's for top 10 Copeland vote getters, the lack of games and poor form of Cloke who you'd also assume to be a monty for top 10 entering the season, Reid struggling early and only playing 17.

I think all of Smith, Blair, Crisp and Greenwood would slide out if it all went as expected.

Lets, not forget that Smith was actually 3rd choice for that defensive slot behind Sinclair and Ramsay. That does not diminish his 2016 season, I just don't think he's top 10 Copeland material yet, or that under normal circumstances, his 2016 season would merit that.

I'll happily eat my words if he backs it up in 2017 or ever achieves a top 10 finish again.

 

[Scodog10]

I don't see Smith and Maynard as the defensive liabilities you conclude they are. I still see our troubles with kicking skills, those midfield and half forward turnover that creates and our struggles from clearances as the bigger reasons we are heavily scored against. Of course all of us are speculating as we don't have the details of our game plan to make a proper assessment but that would be my take.

I pointed out the flaws in his defensive game during and after the Essendon pre-season game. He was trailing his man into the stoppage and then not pressing back on the overlap. For a more obvious example re-watch the return match v the Bulldogs last year when Jong kicked one of his running goals. Smith was shoulder to shoulder with him when the ball was bounced and then sagged off from the contest only for Jong to get involved in transition. We have CFC and others noting how hard he worked to link up yet we were burned still going the other way.

Without the behind the goals footage for each match its a pointless discussion, but he doesn't do the things needed of a defender which Ramma does. As I've said about six times already Smith is never the one to work back in cover of other players and never gets beaten in one on one's in D50 because he's never involved in any. Maynard's problems are easier to diagnose he just hunts the ball so smart forwards do what Smith does and sag off the contest.

I actually find it amusing to see these weak links defensively defended by posters when we need them to get better in order to improve. Overall both are solid footballers with good futures ahead they just aren't suited to defensive roles.

 

[PIrOed]

Smith, and Phillips for that matter, seem ideally suited to the wings where they can use their running power and their lack of defensive ability isn't as exploitable by opposition clubs. Lots of competition for those wing spots as well though with Sidey, Varcoe, Crisp, Aish, WHE among the options. Smith as the loose player in defense also has some merit but that role ideally goes to someone with better marking like Langdon, Howe, or Scharenberg.

Difficulty for the selectors is that both Phillips and Smith have earned a spot for round 1 through a very good JLT series, yet you still have to fit them both into the 22 in terms of position and from a team balance perspective.

I certainly hope that Aish and Crisp are not competing for spots on the wing. Not to say that they shouldn't spend some minutes there in rotation but they both should be playing predominantly on the ball. I'd have all of Sidebottom, Varcoe, Smith, Phillips and perhaps even WHE ahead of them both for wing roles as their games are too centered around contested ball to be as effective as those players on the outside.

After the game on the weekend Buckley said he'd like to play Sidebottom more up forward which has me thinking that he could be selected as the sixth forward vacating a wing spot for Phillips, leaving Varcoe on the other wing and Smith as the 7th defender/wing rotation off the bench. That'd be one way to fit them all in the 22 while retaining at least a semblance of balance.

 

[PIrOed]

I pointed out the flaws in his defensive game during and after the Essendon pre-season game. He was trailing his man into the stoppage and then not pressing back on the overlap. For a more obvious example re-watch the return match v the Bulldogs last year when Jong kicked one of his running goals. Smith was shoulder to shoulder with him when the ball was bounced and then sagged off from the contest only for Jong to get involved in transition. We have CFC and others noting how hard he worked to link up yet we were burned still going the other way.

Without the behind the goals footage for each match its a pointless discussion, but he doesn't do the things needed of a defender which Ramma does. As I've said about six times already Smith is never the one to work back in cover of other players and never gets beaten in one on one's in D50 because he's never involved in any. Maynard's problems are easier to diagnose he just hunts the ball so smart forwards do what Smith does and sag off the contest.

I actually find it amusing to see these weak links defensively defended by posters when we need them to get better in order to improve. Overall both are solid footballers with good futures ahead they just aren't suited to defensive roles.

I agree with you on Smith in that his propensity to play off his man is not a trait that will serve him well in defense(faster players might be able to get away with it) and that he will be better suited to playing up the ground but I beg to differ on Maynard. When a defender hunts the ball I see that as the realisation of the saying that the best defense is a good offense. If Maynard wins that ball his opponent is not getting it so that is a defensive win in my books. Of course it's a risk but better than sagging off your opponent hoping someone else wins the ball and feeds it out to you. The former is a risk but has both defensive and offensive rewards while the latter is a risk with purely offensive rewards taken at the expense of defense. Now you don't want your whole defensive group hunting the ball but in my opinion one or two players doing so is certainly a worthwhile the risk.

 

[Gone Critical]

I pointed out the flaws in his defensive game during and after the Essendon pre-season game. He was trailing his man into the stoppage and then not pressing back on the overlap.

As I've said about six times already Smith is never the one to work back in cover of other players and never gets beaten in one on one's in D50 because he's never involved in any. Maynard's problems are easier to diagnose he just hunts the ball so smart forwards do what Smith does and sag off the contest.

I actually find it amusing to see these weak links defensively defended by posters when we need them to get better in order to improve. Overall both are solid footballers with good futures ahead they just aren't suited to defensive roles.

Gotta say I don't see this. Without paying massive attention to it I have thought of Smith as being that 2 wayrunner on the backline who works really hard. Not noted for one on one stuff but that he worked hard to cover his part of the field while giving attacking options on the outlet.

Sat down just now and watched the Richmond match just to see what he did. Have to say there was clearly no one who worked as hard as he did down back. As we know he provided plenty of outlet options and run into attack. However he was frequently on his bike working back into the 50. Often he popped up as ourlast man in defence a few moments after going on an attacking run. He covered his opponents coming into attack. In short, in this match at least I could see no evidence of a player who slacked defensively.

Admittedly it was an excellent game for him. He laid a couple of strong tackles to cut off offensive moves and his one on ones he won as far as I saw. A couple were in the back 50, one where he beat Dusty Martin to a ball they were both attacking.

I am not trying to paint him as any great stopper and he doesn't attack like a Ramsay does. Still I don't see the major defensive flaws you describe. Reckon he will be a pretty locked in member of the defensive 6 this season and only flourish more as experience grows. Yes he yes he needs to improve further but the odds of that happening are good in an inexperienced player.

Think you have gone to hard here Sco in describing Smith as not suited to a defensive role. It's where he will play. A bit like your view of Cox as a player who has been worked out by experienced backs and therefore can't compete with them in a contested marking situation you need to let these guys with less than 20 games under their belt to have scope to grow and develop their games.

 

[Quicky]

I pointed out the flaws in his defensive game during and after the Essendon pre-season game. He was trailing his man into the stoppage and then not pressing back on the overlap. For a more obvious example re-watch the return match v the Bulldogs last year when Jong kicked one of his running goals. Smith was shoulder to shoulder with him when the ball was bounced and then sagged off from the contest only for Jong to get involved in transition. We have CFC and others noting how hard he worked to link up yet we were burned still going the other way.

Without the behind the goals footage for each match its a pointless discussion, but he doesn't do the things needed of a defender which Ramma does. As I've said about six times already Smith is never the one to work back in cover of other players and never gets beaten in one on one's in D50 because he's never involved in any. Maynard's problems are easier to diagnose he just hunts the ball so smart forwards do what Smith does and sag off the contest.

I actually find it amusing to see these weak links defensively defended by posters when we need them to get better in order to improve. Overall both are solid footballers with good futures ahead they just aren't suited to defensive roles.

I agree with your assessment mostly. With Maynard I think he just needs to get more savvy and play tighter. I reckon defense is his spot because he isn't a big enough possession winner to move into midfield. If he can't tighten up defensively he'll become a liability. Having said that he has shown really good one vs one ability so if he learns his defensive positioning he'll be fine.

On Smith I think his link running is a good thing for the side. He works really hard to provide options when we are in possession. But his work when we're not in position is loose. To me that lends him more towards the wing or half forward line. A Tarkyn Lockyer type role perhaps. However I think we have better options there so not sure where that leaves Smith.

 

[rand corp]

To me Smith is a natural wing man that we are trying to turn in to a defender, his first few games up on the wing were outstanding all things considered and he has really adapted well to the back line but its not his natural position IMHO

 

[jackcass]

I certainly hope that Aish and Crisp are not competing for spots on the wing. Not to say that they shouldn't spend some minutes there in rotation but they both should be playing predominantly on the ball. I'd have all of Sidebottom, Varcoe, Smith, Phillips and perhaps even WHE ahead of them both for wing roles as their games are too centered around contested ball to be as effective as those players on the outside.

After the game on the weekend Buckley said he'd like to play Sidebottom more up forward which has me thinking that he could be selected as the sixth forward vacating a wing spot for Phillips, leaving Varcoe on the other wing and Smith as the 7th defender/wing rotation off the bench. That'd be one way to fit them all in the 22 while retaining at least a semblance of balance.

You can only ever have 3 mids and a ruckman in the centre square for a bounce. Wings in this day and age are glorified mids who engage in that role once the ball has been bounced.

With 8-10 players on the midfield rotations roster in any squad of 22 and a cap on rotations you more or less have to play these additional mids somewhere. Some will play forward, some back, some wing.

Crisp in particular has played wing a lot since he arrived at the club, Aish also in 2016 and through the JLT series, so I have little doubt they'll spend time there. Sometimes it's not as simple as what might be best for an individual player, rather, what maximises the chances of the team.

 

[sr36]

Gotta say I don't see this. Without paying massive attention to it I have thought of Smith as being that 2 wayrunner on the backline who works really hard. Not noted for one on one stuff but that he worked hard to cover his part of the field while giving attacking options on the outlet.

Sat down just now and watched the Richmond match just to see what he did. Have to say there was clearly no one who worked as hard as he did down back. As we know he provided plenty of outlet options and run into attack. However he was frequently on his bike working back into the 50. Often he popped up as ourlast man in defence a few moments after going on an attacking run. He covered his opponents coming into attack. In short, in this match at least I could see no evidence of a player who slacked defensively.

Admittedly it was an excellent game for him. He laid a couple of strong tackles to cut off offensive moves and his one on ones he won as far as I saw. A couple were in the back 50, one where he beat Dusty Martin to a ball they were both attacking.

I am not trying to paint him as any great stopper and he doesn't attack like a Ramsay does. Still I don't see the major defensive flaws you describe. Reckon he will be a pretty locked in member of the defensive 6 this season and only flourish more as experience grows. Yes he yes he needs to improve further but the odds of that happening are good in an inexperienced player.

Think you have gone to hard here Sco in describing Smith as not suited to a defensive role. It's where he will play. A bit like your view of Cox as a player who has been worked out by experienced backs and therefore can't compete with them in a contested marking situation you need to let these guys with less than 20 games under their belt to have scope to grow and develop their games.

Whilst I tend to agree more with your view than Scodog's. Much of hwat he is talking about can only really be viewed from a full ground aerial shot, not a standard replay.

 

[DWil6]

I think he's in the process of making a number of us look silly and, for the good of the club, let's hope he continues to improve and make us all look silly.
Interesting that we were the number 1 team for scores off defensive turnovers this pre season. That's after getting rid of some of the worst ball users over the offseason. Hopefully smart users can flourish and make us less defensively culpable.
I do hate seeing us kick backwards. It seems to regularly lead to turnovers. I'd rather turn it over from the offensive side of the wing after a long bomb or trying to spot up a player moving forward than in the back 50.

 

[PIrOed]

You can only ever have 3 mids and a ruckman in the centre square for a bounce. Wings in this day and age are glorified mids who engage in that role once the ball has been bounced.

With 8-10 players on the midfield rotations roster in any squad of 22 and a cap on rotations you more or less have to play these additional mids somewhere. Some will play forward, some back, some wing.

If that's the way the Collingwood coaching group are thinking then it goes a long way to explaining how their structures are repeatably broken down on the outside. If you want extra players on the ball then in my opinion it should be the half forwards not wingman pushing up. Players on the wing should be working space both on offense and defense not leaving it vacant by piling in to the contest. In my opinion players like Smith are perfect for this sort of role.

Crisp in particular has played wing a lot since he arrived at the club, Aish also in 2016 and through the JLT series, so I have little doubt they'll spend time there. Sometimes it's not as simple as what might be best for an individual player, rather, what maximises the chances of the team.

As I said I don't have a problem with them spending time there as part of the teams rotations just that they should not be selected specifically to play those roles. My thinking is that as you say there are only a limited number of players who can rotate through the midfield positions and some will have to spend some time where they are less effective to give others a breather. However if they spend too much time in those positions it actively damages the teams chances compared to a scenario where a player who is more adept in that role is selected.

Now Aish and Crisp are not starting inside midfielders ahead of Adams, Pendlebury, Treloar or Wells. Therefore they are being selected to play off the bench. I hope that when they are selected they are being selected specifically to relieve your Pendleburys and Treloars not those outside types. However it is their ability to play a few minutes on the outside at least semi competently that has them selected over players like Greenwood who would be god awful on a wing.