List Mgmt. List Management 2022

[Jeremias]

Never said I wanted just a stand alone ruck...



Meant all along I wanted a Goldy type "an old Ruck who can also play forward" (his role this year)
"I want a Ruck/Forward (TDK) type, not an undersized forward/ruck (JSOS type)"...

A Goldy, Phillips or that type who could pinch hit and play this role in the ruck or forward if we had an injury...
Only problem with them they'd probably want to play seniors...

Ideally I'd like a player that could help coach, also be injury insurance and primarily play as a 2nd ruck in the VFL...
A Kruezer would be perfect, but that ship has probably sailed...

Not against drafting another Ruck/Forward, to grow with Mirkov either...
Would give us great balance of 4 rucks... 2x Rucks (Pittonet & Mirkov) 2x Ruck Forwards (TDK & Drafted/Insurance ruck)

Most AFL teams have at least 4 ruckman...

I am not sure you're thinking this one through properly.

Goldstein is not a ruck/forward. He is a #1 ruck who has been played out of position this season because North want to get games into others. He's a pro but it's pretty clear he's not particularly happy with things.

If he's not content with that role at AFL level, why on earth would he come to Carlton to sit in our reserves forward line?

If he extends his career he's surely far more likely to jump across to a team in the window who needs a #1 ruck.

As for other names you've mentioned, Phillips has kicked 20 goals in 10 seasons of football. Was there one in particular that made you sit up and think "geez, this bloke is a forward"? Think you also mentioned NicNat...if so, surely a joke?

If we bring another player who can play in the ruck, they surely must be able to contribute elsewhere. Bringing in a #1 ruck does nothing for us and would be to our detriment. The flow on effects would be poor.

 

[Stamos]

a) Didn't suggest sacking Kreuzer. No reason they couldn't co-exist with one of them having playing duties as well. (EDIT: Though if the club secured Goldy and felt that he offered as much as Kreuzer in that space, I wouldn't be totally against recommending that he diversify his experience elsewhere).

b) Of course....but that holds true for literally any ruckman we look at. It's also not necessarily "predominantly as a forward" - I'd actually suggest that a 50/50 split of the ruck minutes would be beneficial. Mirkov's ruck craft is coming along pretty well, and will continue to do so, but he needs to learn how to function as a forward rotation and/or dropping back into defense. A short-termer like Goldstein is perfect for that, because we could use 2023 for Mirkov's development in those areas, and then ramp up his ruck time again from 2024.

You reckon we're going to pay 2 ruck coaches?
And no, I don't think that applies to anyone we bring in. Goldstein has been one of the best rucks in the League. A pure ruck. He would have options to play 1s at other clubs, why would he come to Carlton to play predominantly as a forward in the 2s?

 

[Blue__Balls]

You reckon we're going to pay 2 ruck coaches?
And no, I don't think that applies to anyone we bring in. Goldstein has been one of the best rucks in the League. A pure ruck. He would have options to play 1s at other clubs, why would he come to Carlton to play predominantly as a forward in the 2s?

Depends on how much "coaching" Goldstein is doing. Having an experience senior player offering leadership in the ressies, as well as on-field coaching for developing players, is no doubt beneficial. Given he'd be playing as well, we're not just "paying two ruck coaches", we're utilising the experience of a listed player in the coaching/development space.

Goldy may well get offers elsewhere. If so, that's fine, he can take those. I'm not categorically stating what he wants, I'm just outlining the role I'd see for him with us if we went that route.

Hypothetically though - he'd have a fair chance at a flag with us, could back himself in to perform so well that he demands selection over Pitto, would be able to dip his toe in the water with coaching before he retires, wouldn't have to move interstate, would spend some time in a clearly positive club environment....there are plenty of selling points. Comes down to what he values most, which neither of us know for sure.

If we make a few reasonable assumptions - that he'd rather not move interstate (with his school-age kids) for a year or two, and that he'd like a chance at a flag, the only club I'd suggest has a better situation for him would be Geelong. Even then, I don't know that they'd guarantee him the top ruck spot ahead of Stanley.

Melbourne - Gawn/Jackson incumbent, no need for Goldy.
Geelong - possible option.
Collingwood - Grundy incumbent, offer similar to Carlton.
WB - English incumbent, Martin already in the "Goldy role".
Richmond - Nank incumbent, have a few mature bodied back-up rucks.
St Kilda - Marshall incumbent, Ryder already in the "Goldy role".
Hawthorn - have a few young developing rucks, McEvoy already in the "Goldy role", limited flag opportunity.
Essendon - Draper incumbent, Philips already in the "Goldy role", nowhere near a flag.

 

[katmanblue]

That he's a good coach, to the point where we'd sack Kreuzer.
That he's happy to play 2's, predominantly as a forward and be a back up.

Pitto spoke about how much Kreuzer has helped him develop as a ruck. Even in his first year with us when Kreuzer was sill playing. Not sure Kreuzer will be moved on.

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[Stefchook]

Don't mind the idea of a Himmelberg or Frampton both over 200cm that can play in each third...
Also like the idea of a cheap McAsey while we are on the crows...

Yeah, I reckon Himmelberg might be gettable with Thilthorpe and Fogarty preferred. Flexible enough to play a number of roles.

 

[Jeremias]

Think we're all getting stuck on the names, I've said types all along (could be any name)...
Players that I mentioned were only players over 30... Who are OOC and possibly being cut from their current team,
who might want to extend their time on an AFL list and that could ruck and pinch hit forward if needed...

The problem with a lot of the names you've put forward is they're not the right type.

Goldstein, Naitanui etc. aren't helpful in the context of why we'd be bringing them across. They're not going to take up a role that has them sitting in the forward 50 of our reserves.

I don't want another situation like this year where our rucks are JSOS (gets smashed in the hit outs, but is ok around the ground)
and Cripps (who's game has fallen away since having to ruck)

We're one ruck/forward short. There's no disagreement there.

I will say though you can't plan for every situation as roster spots are limited. People will always bemoan we're one short if all our options are wiped out, regardless of how many options we had.

Personally I'd like another Ruck/Forward (TDK) type, not an undersized forward/ruck (JSOS type)...
If that's through the draft or trade, I really don't care...

I'd also like another KPF or KP Swingman, Wingers (not sure now LOB & Cottrell are starting to shine... (Not sure we should waste $$$ on Amon),

Yes, a ruck/forward is the need. Jack is doing a good job though and I'm not certain it matters how tall the relief option is.

Amon is a good footballer. He'd look very good out on a wing, though LOB, Cottrell and Newnes have been good this year. Am very keen on him at the right price.

 

[gbatman]

If we retain Sam Durdin

38

Sam Durdin

Age

27

Ht

199cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.7

2star

K

6.2

2star

HB

3.5

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

11.2

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.6

4star

and McDonald and get them fit we are fine for key position defenders. Particularly as we have some third tall types who can play key position if needed. Because McDonald is so injury prone we probably need another one which means we will have 5 on our list plus the third tall types which is probably a surplus. So we are probably looking at replacing McDonald if there's too much doubt there.

As it stands we have 4 key defenders on our list which is about right but injuries to 3 plus the taller/better two third talls is just a really unusual situation for a club to be in.

What we don't have and have been getting away with it a bit is a backup key forward. DeKoning probably takes that mantle if we build up our ruck stocks. We find a mature ruckman then we have backup to our tall forwards and the ruck.

The smaller list sizes really do make having players who can play multiple positions really important.

 

[Blue and Silver]

A thought I had last year, which frankly I think is even more true this year, is you can't carry this many injury prone talls.

Marchbank, McGovern, McDonald.

2 stay maximum. Probably 1 if you're brutal

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[CJMB]

Do we have to many 3rd tall defenders and need a clean out?

KPD: Weitering, Young, Durdin, McDonald
3TD: Kemp, Plowman, McGovern, Marchbank, Parks, Williamson, Akuei

If all were fit not sure any would get a game, unless injury or match ups...
Personally I'd go Young (FB can Intercept), Weitering (3T Intercepting General), Durdin (Lockdown Defender)
then 4x smalls Newman, Sadd, Docherty, Williams/Boyd/Stocker.

Do we try and trade a Kemp, Plowman, McGovern for a player of need?

Working through your lists there:

• No need to comment on Weitering & Young.
• Durdin can see staying on the list if he recovers ok, this weeks report says 2-3 weeks so looks good.
• McDonald gone unless he has a perfect recovery and the club thinks he might be able to stay on the park for more than 2 games.
• Kemp - no interest in trading him whatsoever. Crazy talk.
• Plowman - serviceable, reliable, hardly ever injured. Keep as depth/fringe 22.
• McGovern is contracted for 1 more year. He'll have to sort his s*** out and get a good run to stay past that. Can't see anyone wanting to trade for him, certainly not without us paying a significant chunk of his contract next year.
• Marchbank probably depends on how he recovers, if ok then could get another year either on senior or rookie list as he can play.
• Parks - gone.
• Williamson not really a tall defender, was playing wing/hff just before he took leave. Can't see him on the senior list next year, probably unlikely to be at the club at all.
• Akeui is a cat B rookie so isn't even considered in list numbers, the only way we'd consider moving him on is if we had another cat B prospect coming up that looked better, not sure that's likely.

My guess:

2023: Weiters, Young, Durdin*, Kemp, Plowman, McGovern, Marchbank*, Akeui
Gone: McDonald, Parks, Williamson

Then there's other spots made available in other parts of the list. Imagine Ed retires & Dow requests a trade, sounds like we're waiting to see how DC recovers before resuming contract talks.

Then there's the OOC list to work through (I've included those mentioned above):

Senior: Fogarty, Stocker, Marchbank, Cuningham, Williamson, Newnes, Ed Curnow, Honey, Setterfield
Rookie: O'Brien, Parks, Boyd, McDonald, Cottrell
Cat B: Owies (must be promoted to senior this year or delisted/traded), Akeui

 

[DangerousD]

If we bring another player who can play in the ruck, they surely must be able to contribute elsewhere. Bringing in a #1 ruck does nothing for us and would be to our detriment. The flow on effects would be poor.

Not sure if it’s just you but I’ve seen this mentioned a few times, I don’t really understand it, how would bringing in a number 1 ruck be to our detriment and have poor flow on effects?

Every year since I can remember we as a club have tried to improve the list, recruiting Saad, Hewett, Cerra, going after Papley and many others, never have I seen anyone care about how the recruitment of these guys would be bad because it would make the players they replace upset or disenfranchise, all of these guys push players to the reserves.

If the club thought Goldy was a better ruck than Pitt, then recruiting him for a year or two improves our 1st 22 and our 2nd 22, it seems people are also forgetting that Pittonet is not a durable player, this is his 3rd year with us and his beat season is 13 games, which he won’t match this season.

Having a ruck of Pittonets ability as back up would put us in a great position depth wise in a pursuit of a premiership.

 

[DangerousD]

You reckon we're going to pay 2 ruck coaches?
And no, I don't think that applies to anyone we bring in. Goldstein has been one of the best rucks in the League. A pure ruck. He would have options to play 1s at other clubs, why would he come to Carlton to play predominantly as a forward in the 2s?

Why wouldn’t Goldy be our number 1 ruck?

 

[Stamos]

Why wouldn’t Goldy be our number 1 ruck?

You want to see the De Koening brothers in the same team?

 

[BigFrizz36]

Why wouldn’t Goldy be our number 1 ruck?

Because there is every chance that in 2023 tdk will be a better player than goldy.

And

Playing Goldstein as our number 1 ruck in 2023 would absolutely stifle tdk's development and be a retrogressive step.

We dont need to top up with has beens anymore to try and become a middle of the road team. Thankfully those days are gone. From memory Goldstein was drafted in the same draft as Shaun Hampson.

 

[DangerousD]

You want to see the De Koening brothers in the same team?

At the Blues I do.

I doubt that recruiting a better ruck than Pitto would have a negative affect on TDK, when Pitto is back, I see him playing as the predominant ruck, allowing Tom to spend more time forward and not have such a big workload.

I thought I saw some ruck numbers a few days ago that showed Pitto did about an 85/15 ruck split with TDK, I’d expect that to change a fair bit to 60/40 or close to it, I see TDK as having a lot of forward potential that he can’t build on due to our circumstances and having a more reliable ruck partner would help him immensely.

 

[Stamos]

At the Blues I do.

I doubt that recruiting a better ruck than Pitto would have a negative affect on TDK, when Pitto is back, I see him playing as the predominant ruck, allowing Tom to spend more time forward and not have such a big workload.

I thought I saw some ruck numbers a few days ago that showed Pitto did about an 85/15 ruck split with TDK, I’d expect that to change a fair bit to 60/40 or close to it, I see TDK as having a lot of forward potential that he can’t build on due to our circumstances and having a more reliable ruck partner would help him immensely.

Fine. Then Pitto walks out. And we lose a really good ruck who was a key to our early midfield domination in order to bring in a 34 and half year old.
Why would we do that?

 

[Arr0w]

Fine. Then Pitto walks out. And we lose a really good ruck who was a key to our early midfield domination in order to bring in a 34 and half year old.
Why would we do that?

Not that I would chase Goldy, but what makes you think TDK or Pitto walk out if Goldstein does a year with us?

 

[Stamos]

Not that I would chase Goldy, but what makes you think TDK or Pitto walk out if Goldstein does a year with us?

I think it will be hard to keep our rucks happy if we bring in a 34 1/2 year old to play in front of them.

 

[Arr0w]

I think it will be hard to keep our rucks happy if we bring in a 34 1/2 year old to play in front of them.

I think that's an assumption. Goldy could ruck with Pitto, while TDK spend his time as a forward alongside Harry, while Charlie then gets the 3rd defender

You also have rotations so it's not as if they will play every minute of a match together

Personally I would target a younger version, but the strategy isn't flawed

 

[Stamos]

This walk out scenario, is just hysterical thinking...
Would Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Hewett or Kennedy walk out if we got another midfielder?

Why would any player walk out when they are building something special with their mates
at a club that embraces and nurtures them, unless it is for more $$$ and they were going to leave anyway...

If we got another ruck/forward for insurance or to grow with the group, Pittonet and TDK will still be getting game time...

I could only see Pittonet being in trouble if we got another Ruck/Forward that turns into TDK...
Imagine having 2 TDKs alternating between Ruck and Forward...

There are a lot more midfield spots available than there are ruck spots.
And TDK is going to be getting huge offers. So will Pitto if he's playing in the 2s

 

[Jeremias]

This walk out scenario, is just hysterical thinking...
Would Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Hewett or Kennedy walk out if we got another midfielder?

Surely you can see the difference here?

The two situations are not at all comparable when there's only 1 maybe 2 spots for a ruck in the senior side.

 

[Stamos]

Goldy could ruck with Pitto, while TDK spend his time as a forward alongside Harry, while Charlie then gets the 3rd defender

You also have rotations so it's not as if they will play every minute of a match together

You're kidding, right?

 

[Jeremias]

See a difference in what?

In comparing what might happen if you add another #1 ruck into this group, to what might happen if you add another midfielder.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Stamos]

Having 4 rucks on the list instead of 3?
2x traditional rucks and 2x Ruck/Forwards, instead of 2x traditional rucks and 1x Ruck/Forwards?

Goldstein would mean 3 traditional rucks and 1 ruck/forward, though.

 

[Stamos]

I didn't talk about Goldy today, only the position...

I said this all along but it falls on deaf ears...
I think we should go after a ruck (sized 200cm + player) who can Ruck/KPP in The TDK mould...

Off the top of my head only, I haven't gone through any lists to see what is available... (except 30+ year olds who are on the verge of being cut)... A couple of cheaper (Young) options may be Himmelberg or Frampton both over 200cm can #2nd Ruck and that can play in each third...

You replied to my posts that were about Goldstein.

I agree, another ruck/forward would be very handy.

 

[DangerousD]

Because there is every chance that in 2023 tdk will be a better player than goldy.

And

Playing Goldstein as our number 1 ruck in 2023 would absolutely stifle tdk's development and be a retrogressive step.

We dont need to top up with has beens anymore to try and become a middle of the road team. Thankfully those days are gone. From memory Goldstein was drafted in the same draft as Shaun Hampson.

I think everything depends on what type of player you think TDK will become or be best suited to. Tom has developed fantastic this season as a ruckman, but I still see him as a ruck/fwd and see him best contributing to the team as a second ruck and spending time forward, this may change in time.

We have had a shocking injury run this year but the only two which have had a serious effect on team balance and performance has been the Weits and Pitto injuries, Pitto going down has put a huge load on Toms shoulders and has meant he hasn’t been able to develop the forward half side to his game, missing the second ruck has also had a negative impact on SOS and Cripps games.

I see the club playing Pitto and TDK as soon as they’re both available, with a positive flow on effect with TDK and SOSs games, a player like Goldstein (not necessarily him), would have been huge for us this year, Pitto to date is an injury prone player, who to date can’t be relied upon as a ruck.