'Modern heroes'? Assange, Manning, Snowden, Hammond...

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benchwarmer5

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"Mission Accomplished", Recently released Video.
Government lackeys, I want to hear some views from you guys, what do you think about it ?
" I didn't want to change society, I wanted to give society a chance to determine if it should change itself "
I can understand people being preoccupied too much to give a fek about mass illegal surveillance, but the lackys who come in this thread and spewed out some hateful views about a guy who informed us, the people, of unconstitutional behaviour, from the " of the people by the people for the people " Government, explain your views. When is an uninformed populace a good thing for the majority ?
 

blackcat

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Snowden
"Mission Accomplished", Recently released Video.
Government lackeys, I want to hear some views from you guys, what do you think about it ?
" I didn't want to change society, I wanted to give society a chance to determine if it should change itself "
I can understand people being preoccupied too much to give a fek about mass illegal surveillance, but the lackys who come in this thread and spewed out some hateful views about a guy who informed us, the people, of unconstitutional behaviour, from the " of the people by the people for the people " Government, explain your views. When is an uninformed populace a good thing for the majority ?
I worry about a society in 100 years.

But my great great grandkids can fix the mess
 

Geelong_Sicko

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Snowden may well claim victory... but I have the feeling there is a TRULY MASSIVE 'for now' caveat hanging over his warm and fuzzy feelings of accomplishment. Don't get me wrong - he's fighting the good fight and there needs to be more like him ready to pull the rug from under governmental murk and intrigue.

On all sides.

Russia needs Snowdens (to be gleefully sheltered by Washington, no doubt). China needs Snowdens (ditto regarding Washington). Israel. England. France. Vietnam. Both Koreas. And our own nation, of course.

BUT something tells me that the great and the powerful that are Earth's Big Players are just gonna twitch in their sleep over this. Maybe let out a near-silent bedfart. And then the status-quo will resume. Victory... for now.

Eddie Snowden is leading by example though, which is nothing but encouraging. As is Chelsea Manning. As is Julian Assange and all the silent networks who have helped these people distribute their messages from the shadows. Keep on keeping on, heroes.
 

blackcat

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did not Snowden get victory by just getting it out.

the failure, and I will bet on the failure, is the populace' burden. not his.

His was a bet against apathy and the political power structure. That was one major gamble. As I said, in one measure, he did win just by laying the bet.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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I can agree with that. As far as his personal struggle went, it was a fine victory. And I especially agree with you on whose head the expected 'failure' to come will lie. On Snowden's personal fate though, I just hope Russia in their infinite wisdom aren't seeing him as some sort of juicy bargaining chip to be played with at a later date.

NONE of the 'Great Game' players are particularly trustworthy.
 

blackcat

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I can agree with that. As far as his personal struggle went, it was a fine victory. And I especially agree with you on whose head the expected 'failure' to come will lie. On Snowden's personal fate though, I just hope Russia in their infinite wisdom aren't seeing him as some sort of juicy bargaining chip to be played with at a later date.

NONE of the 'Great Game' players are particularly trustworthy.
he is safer in Moscow or a ducha than getting to Ecuador. CIA more likely to car accident him in Ecuador
 

Sanders

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Snowden only has asylum for 12 months, then he is back in the crap

And he's just an immature ideological child who didn't realise what he was doing, or how he was being manipulated by journalists & other self interested groups.

He can't put the genie back in the bottle so all he has left now is to: "claim victory" and say "it was all part of his master plan"

The sad thing is he is still living with his back in the corner waiting to be spat out when he is of no further use.

He's no more of a hero than Guy Burgess or Kim Philby - just less bright
 

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Geelong_Sicko

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He's no more of a hero than Guy Burgess or Kim Philby - just less bright
Those two, part of the Cambridge Five, were actual SPIES though, Sanders. As far as I know (which admittedly isn't a lot in this case) Edward Snowden is not a paid-up intelligence asset of the Russian Federation.

Are you saying that, because he didn't 'sell out' his nation's secrets to another nation in particular it means he isn't as bright?
 

MaddAdam

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A spy agency is acting outside the controls of a country's leadership? Why I would never ...

It would have been easy to list 1, you need more than that to justify the harm they have caused. All of these necessary reasons were information that Snowden that released, so do we agree that Assange only released trivial information?

Assange's Collateral Murder was very important.
 

Sanders

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Those two, part of the Cambridge Five, were actual SPIES though, Sanders. As far as I know (which admittedly isn't a lot in this case) Edward Snowden is not a paid-up intelligence asset of the Russian Federation.

Are you saying that, because he didn't 'sell out' his nation's secrets to another nation in particular it means he isn't as bright?
No he's not as bright as he had allowed him to be a manipulated puppet spunked on by all comers

Philby & Burgess were ferociously clever
 

Geelong_Sicko

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No he's not as bright as he had allowed him to be a manipulated puppet spunked on by all comers

Philby & Burgess were ferociously clever
It hinges on motivation - Philby and Burgess were definitely clever, and they were also more or less committed communists. They believed in aiding the Soviet Union through good espionage work.

What motivated Edward Snowden? As far as I can gather he still believes in the United States, just not in the practices employed by its intelligence arm. He didn't want to commit treason by actually WORKING for a foreign power while within the National Security Agency - instead he discovered acts he thought were treasonous AGAINST the people of the United States, and against the constitution which is meant to protect them.

He thought the ordinary man should be able to hear about what was being done in their name, and by whom. Naturally this has left his arse hanging in the wind - as you say, Russia's benevolence may not run past a year. I assume Snowden originally thought someone in Obama's White House would listen, and maybe keep the wolves at bay long enough to drum up some sort of support for a constitutional inquiry into the workings of the N.S.A.

When this didn't happen and the gaff was blown he had no choice but to flee. Staying to argue his way through the shitstorm was no option.

Was he dumb? Or just too naïve in thinking that with a black man in the White House it would usher in a brave new world of openness, where his concerns would be listened to?
 

Sanders

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It hinges on motivation - Philby and Burgess were definitely clever, and they were also more or less committed communists. They believed in aiding the Soviet Union through good espionage work.

What motivated Edward Snowden? As far as I can gather he still believes in the United States, just not in the practices employed by its intelligence arm. He didn't want to commit treason by actually WORKING for a foreign power while within the National Security Agency - instead he discovered acts he thought were treasonous AGAINST the people of the United States, and against the constitution which is meant to protect them.

He thought the ordinary man should be able to hear about what was being done in their name, and by whom. Naturally this has left his arse hanging in the wind - as you say, Russia's benevolence may not run past a year. I assume Snowden originally thought someone in Obama's White House would listen, and maybe keep the wolves at bay long enough to drum up some sort of support for a constitutional inquiry into the workings of the N.S.A.

When this didn't happen and the gaff was blown he had no choice but to flee. Staying to argue his way through the shitstorm was no option.

Was he dumb? Or just too naïve in thinking that with a black man in the White House it would usher in a brave new world of openness, where his concerns would be listened to?
Sorry you're just projecting all sorts of shallow rhetoric onto him like a straw man

He clearly didn't think much about what will happen and foolishly believed a couple of guardian journalists who promised to help

He's still in no mans land, as he is only temporarily allowed to stay in Russia

He lacks conviction or any clear guiding ideology to pull all this disparate activity together - its only because he's been thus far an empty vessel that others like you can project so easy onto him
 

DivideandMultiply

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Eddie Snowden is leading by example though, which is nothing but encouraging. As is Chelsea Manning. As is Julian Assange and all the silent networks who have helped these people distribute their messages from the shadows. Keep on keeping on, heroes.
I don't think this is a victory for the people, more a victory for the private sector.

Inherently corrupt governments won't change their behaviour, they will just increase the length of the chain of accountability.

Since the vast majority of state based surveillance is targeted at economic or financial gain, or at least that is what I am guessing, further outsourcing makes sense in a dangerous kind of way.

Afterall, it is easier to let blame fall on a vendor, than blame be taken by the whole system.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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Sorry you're just projecting all sorts of shallow rhetoric onto him like a straw man

He clearly didn't think much about what will happen and foolishly believed a couple of guardian journalists who promised to help

He's still in no mans land, as he is only temporarily allowed to stay in Russia

He lacks conviction or any clear guiding ideology to pull all this disparate activity together - its only because he's been thus far an empty vessel that others like you can project so easy onto him
I admit to not having access to the man's every thought - I thought that was clear? Aren't you surmising, if not projecting your own thoughts on him as well when you say he "lacks conviction or any clear ideology" when conducting this activity? Not to say you're not entitled to an opinion - you definitely are and may be 100% correct about him.

Don't dismiss everything else out of hand just yet, though.

Here's a bit more psychological surmising on what may have motivated Edward Snowden, from Forbes magazine. It covers a few possible mindsets;

http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2013/06/23/inside-the-mind-of-edward-snowden/2/

...His interviews—if taken at face value—reveal a desire to open the eyes of Americans to the fact that our government is abusing its power. By revealing the NSA’s virtually unlimited ability to gather personal data on U.S. citizens, Snowden was arguably acting on behalf of unknowing victims, or at least believes he was...

...Snowden revealed his secrets knowing that he would be labeled a criminal—despite the value of what he disclosed—and knew the repercussions. And we also have to remember that he was already living the good life as a well-paid professional in Hawaii. Would a true narcissist, not yet 30 years old, give up wealth and esteem to become an international fugitive?

...It’s not unreasonable to argue that Edward Snowden was motivated by the goal of becoming a change agent that history will remember. This seems a more compelling explanation than narcissism, because someone motivated by achieving historical distinction knows the role will be layered with positive and negative perceptions (perhaps more negative than positive) and accepts the mantle anyway...

...Snowden’s motivation was multi-pronged, and part of what drove him is most certainly unknown even to him (how many of us are perfectly informed about why we do what we do?). We’ll probably never known for sure what psychological calculus contributed to his actions...

...we’re also faced with knowing that if not for high-profile whistleblowers, we wouldn’t have a credible means to evaluate the alleged transparency our leaders claim to embrace. That, too, matters quite a lot.


Was he motivated by the possibility that his name would go down in fame or infamy? Possibly. But I believe that he believed he was doing the right thing.

The man himself says, in an interview with Glenn Greenwald, that "over time that awareness of wrongdoing (inside the intelligence community) builds up and you feel compelled to talk about it, and the more you talk about it the more you're ignored - the more you're told it's not a problem - until eventually you realise that these things need to be decided by the public and not by somebody who was simply hired by the government."


He goes on to say that, in the absence of governmental acknowledgement of mistakes (or abuses) it becomes the responsibility of individual citizens to expose these things.

He may be guilty of not having the perfect exit strategy. He acknowledges he will likely be living in fear for the rest of his life. Yet he chose the path he did - for the greater good. That, in my mind, is the mark of a hero.

Of course all this hurts him, Sanders. The trick lies in not minding that it hurts.
 

blackcat

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I don't think this is a victory for the people, more a victory for the private sector.

Inherently corrupt governments won't change their behaviour, they will just increase the length of the chain of accountability.
quote worthy.
can I add "...which increases in proportion to added layers of bureaucracy. And bureaucracy never by definition, rescinds voluntarily. Like the quote about power. It needs to be taken. Well, bureaucracies will always seek to perpetuate and enlarge their sphere of influence.
Since the vast majority of state based surveillance is targeted at economic or financial gain, or at least that is what I am guessing, further outsourcing makes sense in a dangerous kind of way.

Afterall, it is easier to let blame fall on a vendor, than blame be taken by the whole system.
The most immaculate risk management. Never have any risk nor skin in the game. Dont even have to clean your fingers.
 

evo

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Inherently corrupt governments won't change their behaviour, they will just increase the length of the chain of accountability.
Indeed. In the end these whistleblowers have pretty much wasted their time because, as usual, people are unwilling to see the forest for the trees: we need less government involvement in our lives, not different government.

We have inherently corrupt governments because the nature of government is inherently corrupt.
 

blackcat

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@ Stratfor
@ Blackwater / Acadami / Xe en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi

DivideandMultiply

will someone pls tell me what Eric Prince's stategy was recently coming out against drones? Was it strictly business, he saw it moving in on his turf, so some inverse pr ?

The CIA guy, who was caught in Islamabad, about 30 months ago, for killing 3 was it? One was in the drive off hit n run whilst he attempted to lam to the embassy. He was Blackwater?

I thought Bllackwater was doing some of those targeted assassinations for the CIA too.

http://www.american.edu/soc/communication/upload/Capstone-Noble.pdf
http://www.voltairenet.org/mot121001.html?lang=en
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28025.htm

Eric Prince still lives in either Hous o Saud or one of the Emirati. He hot footed it, what, 5 years back, under fear of prosecution at home.
 

Sanders

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I admit to not having access to the man's every thought - I thought that was clear? Aren't you surmising, if not projecting your own thoughts on him as well when you say he "lacks conviction or any clear ideology" when conducting this activity? Not to say you're not entitled to an opinion - you definitely are and may be 100% correct about him.

Don't dismiss everything else out of hand just yet, though.

Here's a bit more psychological surmising on what may have motivated Edward Snowden, from Forbes magazine. It covers a few possible mindsets;



Was he motivated by the possibility that his name would go down in fame or infamy? Possibly. But I believe that he believed he was doing the right thing.

The man himself says, in an interview with Glenn Greenwald, that "over time that awareness of wrongdoing (inside the intelligence community) builds up and you feel compelled to talk about it, and the more you talk about it the more you're ignored - the more you're told it's not a problem - until eventually you realise that these things need to be decided by the public and not by somebody who was simply hired by the government."


He goes on to say that, in the absence of governmental acknowledgement of mistakes (or abuses) it becomes the responsibility of individual citizens to expose these things.

He may be guilty of not having the perfect exit strategy. He acknowledges he will likely be living in fear for the rest of his life. Yet he chose the path he did - for the greater good. That, in my mind, is the mark of a hero.

Of course all this hurts him, Sanders. The trick lies in not minding that it hurts.
None of which contradicts what I said a whole lot of moral projection

Now what good has he actually done? What corruption has he actually exposed?

Zero

Governments spying on each other is old old news. I suggest peter wright's 1987 biography spy catcher might interest you

Governments are a allowed to surveil their populace, and all he did was show terrorist groups how they are being monitored

He's not a hero, he's a low level functionary who only exposed lack of data security & access control. And for what? To satisfy a few childish delusions?

Anarchist trouble maker at best, but I think he lacks focus & purpose for that. Just an immature idiot who didn't know what he was even trying to do & is now re-writing his motivations to give them meaning & substance. When he had & still has none
 

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