No Opposition Supporters Non Bulldog Footy Talk - Bulldogs only - Part 3

Norm De Guerre

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Mar 27, 2004
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As per Fronk's post, this probably wont go down well but I'm gonna say it anyway.

Yes they were given some ridiculous concessions to start with but they have also, as good clubs do, made their own luck.

Melbourne made it quite clear to all clubs that pick 2 was on the table in the super draft of 2013. GWS pulled the trigger and got Josh Kelly and pick 20 for their own pick 9 and a fringe player in Tyson. They then got involved as a third party for the Polec from Bris to Port trade and turned that pick 20 (and 21) into pick 14 and 29 which netted them McCarthy and Lobb.

A few years later they packaged McCarthy and their own first rounder to obtain Tim Taranto. Lobb then netted them picks 11 and 19 last year.

Essentially they turned their own pick 9 and bit parts into Josh Kelly, Tim Taranto, Jye Caldwell and more draft currency. Any club could have done that deal but only GWS had the balls to pull the trigger.

Gold Coast have had similar chances to capitalise but have failed miserably.
Their good fortune was preordained and a foundation up which the franchise was built.

I think a case can easily be made that the AFL learnt a very good lesson about what not to do when setting up a new franchise with the Giants by looking at how they'd inadvertently hobbled the Gold Coast from the outset. Its no accident that for the most part the Giants have avoided trading out of the draft for mature age age recruits like the suns did. Instead they've hit the draft since their inception and reaped the best talent in the land safe in the knowledge that they always have a foundation of high value draft picks that they could trade out to 17 eager suiters every year and then dip back into the top end of the draft, thus be in a constant state of refresh waiting until the right combination inevitably slipped into place. The AFL can live with a lame duck side in Queensland because every sport fails miserably on the Gold Coast. However, they just cannot do that in market as competitive as the one in Sydney so they were never going to make the same mistake twice and they've made sure they didn't. I reckon somewhere in AFL house there is a chart projecting the number of years that they expected the GWS to be in position to have a serious shot at their fist flag and it would show them to be exactly where the AFL want them right now
 

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WallyStringhaus

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" Balls " yeah ok , but how many early draft picks have they been able to play around with ?
F - me they had to get a fair bit right , their recruiting team have been shooting fish in a barrel since their inception.
As have the Gold Coast mate. They had 4 top 10 picks in 2016 and 4 first rounders last year and what has it done for them? SFA...they are about to get a priority pick because they suck so much.

Once they have a target in sight they do whatever it takes to get them. There were a handful of teams that had a better hand in the 2013 draft and they blew them all out of the water and set themselves up for the years that followed.

How many top picks have Melbourne had over the last two decades? How about Carlton? St.Kilda? Brisbane?

For me, they are my most disliked Club. I can't stand Greene, Mumford, Cameron, Patton and Shaw. I do however, respect what they have done. They are more well run and professional and ahead of the game than clubs that have been doing it for over 100 years. You gotta give credit where it is due.
 

WallyStringhaus

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Their good fortune was preordained and a foundation up which the franchise was built.

I think a case can easily be made that the AFL learnt a very good lesson about what not to do when setting up a new franchise with the Giants by looking at how they'd inadvertently hobbled the Gold Coast from the outset. Its no accident that for the most part the Giants have avoided trading out of the draft for mature age age recruits like the suns did. Instead they've hit the draft since their inception and reaped the best talent in the land safe in the knowledge that they always have a foundation of high value draft picks that they could trade out to 17 eager suiters every year and then dip back into the top end of the draft, thus be in a constant state of refresh waiting until the right combination inevitably slipped into place. The AFL can live with a lame duck side in Queensland because every sport fails miserably on the Gold Coast. However, they just cannot do that in market as competitive as the one in Sydney so they were never going to make the same mistake twice and they've made sure they didn't. I reckon somewhere in AFL house there is a chart projecting the number of years that they expected the GWS to be in position to have a serious shot at their fist flag and it would show them to be exactly where the AFL want them right now
Like the majority of your posts Norm, I don't disagree with one word of what you have said.

What I will say though is that, despite the hysteria that comes with GWS, we have seen this movie before. The Eagles, Crows and Power were all playing finals within three years of their inception and all won flags within their first decade of existence.

I'm old enough to remember the hate that came with the Eagles being the first non victorian team to win a flag. It soon died off and 30 years later they remain one of the best run clubs and are pretty well respected by all and sundry. I've got a feeling GWS will be the same whilst the Suns can hitch a ride on the Freo train to eternal irrelevance...
 

Snarls Barkley

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Melbourne made it quite clear to all clubs that pick 2 was on the table in the super draft of 2013. GWS pulled the trigger and got Josh Kelly and pick 20 for their own pick 9 and a fringe player in Tyson. They then got involved as a third party for the Polec from Bris to Port trade and turned that pick 20 (and 21) into pick 14 and 29 which netted them McCarthy and Lobb.

A few years later they packaged McCarthy and their own first rounder to obtain Tim Taranto. Lobb then netted them picks 11 and 19 last year.

Essentially they turned their own pick 9 and bit parts into Josh Kelly, Tim Taranto, Jye Caldwell and more draft currency. Any club could have done that deal but only GWS had the balls to pull the trigger.
GWS gave: pick 9 + Tyson
GWS got: Kelly + pick 22

GWS gave: pick 21 + pick 22
GWS got: Lobb+ McCarthy

GWS gave: McCarthy+ pick 7 + pick 34
GWS got: pick 3

GWS gave: Lamb (spud) + Phillips (spud) + Plowman (ok, no star) + Sumner (spud) + pick 8
GWS got: pick 28 + future first rounder (ended up being pick 16)

GWS gave: pick 3 + pick 16
GWS got: Taranto + later picks for draft points

GWS gave: Lobb+ pick 14
GWS got: Hately + O’Halloran

Summary

GWS gave: pick 9 (2013), Tyson, pick 21 (2013), pick 7 (2016), pick 34 (2016), Lamb (spud) + Phillips (spud) + Plowman (ok, no star) + Sumner (spud), pick 8 (2015), pick 14 (2018)

GWS got: Kelly, pick 28, Taranto, picks for draft points, Hately, O’Halloran

I still think it’s good management because Kelly and Taranto are stars but gave up more than pick 9 and bit parts.
 

WallyStringhaus

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GWS gave: pick 9 + Tyson
GWS got: Kelly + pick 22

GWS gave: pick 21 + pick 22
GWS got: Lobb+ McCarthy

GWS gave: McCarthy+ pick 7 + pick 34
GWS got: pick 3

GWS gave: Lamb (spud) + Phillips (spud) + Plowman (ok, no star) + Sumner (spud) + pick 8
GWS got: pick 28 + future first rounder (ended up being pick 16)

GWS gave: pick 3 + pick 16
GWS got: Taranto + later picks for draft points

GWS gave: Lobb+ pick 14
GWS got: Hately + O’Halloran

Summary

GWS gave: pick 9 (2013), Tyson, pick 21 (2013), pick 7 (2016), pick 34 (2016), Lamb (spud) + Phillips (spud) + Plowman (ok, no star) + Sumner (spud), pick 8 (2015), pick 14 (2018)

GWS got: Kelly, pick 28, Taranto, picks for draft points, Hately, O’Halloran

I still think it’s good management because Kelly and Taranto are stars but gave up more than pick 9 and bit parts.
I rate Kelly and Taranto as A+ graders and everyone else listed as D and C graders at best...to me that is very much bit parts.

Watch them turn Hately into multiple juicy picks right when the Crows or Port have top end picks...they are very astute with what they do. Other clubs need to stop feeding the monster...
 

Norm De Guerre

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Like the majority of your posts Norm, I don't disagree with one word of what you have said.

What I will say though is that, despite the hysteria that comes with GWS, we have seen this movie before. The Eagles, Crows and Power were all playing finals within three years of their inception and all won flags within their first decade of existence.

I'm old enough to remember the hate that came with the Eagles being the first non victorian team to win a flag. It soon died off and 30 years later they remain one of the best run clubs and are pretty well respected by all and sundry. I've got a feeling GWS will be the same whilst the Suns can hitch a ride on the Freo train to eternal irrelevance...
Only a majority?

The one good thing that has come out of the GWS joining the competition that I can get behind is that we have a genuinely felt rivalry with another team for the first time in our long history. We have rivalries of sorts with our neighbours in Essendon and Norf, but in my view they've never really been one of equals. I think the one with GWS is for real and its going to be a very long time before we have much in the way of respect for anything they stand for or achieve. I for one love it, long may it last.
 

Snarls Barkley

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I rate Kelly and Taranto as A+ graders and everyone else listed as D and C graders at best...to me that is very much bit parts.

Watch them turn Hately into multiple juicy picks right when the Crows or Port have top end picks...they are very astute with what they do. Other clubs need to stop feeding the monster...
I don’t think you can classify 4 top 15 picks as bit parts. Good deal regardless but they did have to give up a bit.

That has been one huge difference between the Giants and Suns. Leaving GWS players seem to hold their value better than leaving Suns. Just have to look at last year, Setterfield (pick 5) with two games and coming off an ACL was still worth Carlton’s second rounder (pick 21 this year). Scrimshaw (pick 7) had played four games, traded with pick 55 to pick 46.
 

fronkalicious

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Gold coasts fatal error was handing the reins to Clayton to spend all the chocolates the AFL gave them.

His free agents lacked leadership, and physicality. And as usual, he opted for leaner, classy outside types with a lot of his picks.

GWS went for 3 guys that would still be in their primes when the kids they drafted matured (scully, Davis and ward), alone with experienced culture guys like brogan, power and cornes that set the tone.

One team was smart with their assets. The other team pi**ed them away and has never recovered.
 

WallyStringhaus

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I don’t think you can classify 4 top 15 picks as bit parts. Good deal regardless but they did have to give up a bit.

That has been one huge difference between the Giants and Suns. Leaving GWS players seem to hold their value better than leaving Suns. Just have to look at last year, Setterfield (pick 5) with two games and coming off an ACL was still worth Carlton’s second rounder (pick 21 this year). Scrimshaw (pick 7) had played four games, traded with pick 55 to pick 46.
Agree...possibly could have extracted more value out of guys like Tom Lynch too. They just had to bite the bullet and trade him a season earlier when he was non-commital about his future. Giants have been ruthless when players want to leave. They let them walk and get overs nearly every time.
 

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King Harold

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As have the Gold Coast mate. They had 4 top 10 picks in 2016 and 4 first rounders last year and what has it done for them? SFA...they are about to get a priority pick because they suck so much.

Once they have a target in sight they do whatever it takes to get them. There were a handful of teams that had a better hand in the 2013 draft and they blew them all out of the water and set themselves up for the years that followed.

How many top picks have Melbourne had over the last two decades? How about Carlton? St.Kilda? Brisbane?

For me, they are my most disliked Club. I can't stand Greene, Mumford, Cameron, Patton and Shaw. I do however, respect what they have done. They are more well run and professional and ahead of the game than clubs that have been doing it for over 100 years. You gotta give credit where it is due.
I'm to much of a lazy bastard Wally to do any analysis comparing the 2 , but I think I am willing to bet GWS had a lot more chips to play with.
 

Virgin Dog

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Clearly I want Bont to win but who will enjoy Mcaveney cringeworthily drawing Dangerfield into a discussion about 2 Brownlows vs no Grand Finals?


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I'm seriously tipping a tie to happen tonight. Bont, Danger, Fyfe, Neale and Cripps could all end up with the most votes, with there really being no clear standout. Then there's a few others who could surprise (Kelly, Macrae, Grundy, ineligible Martin, Yeo). An outright single winner almost would be disappointing, as it wouldn't really reflect just how close the top tier of players have been this year.
 

mcgleereturns

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I'm seriously tipping a tie to happen tonight. Bont, Danger, Fyfe, Neale and Cripps could all end up with the most votes, with there really being no clear standout. Then there's a few others who could surprise (Kelly, Macrae, Grundy, ineligible Martin, Yeo). An outright single winner almost would be disappointing, as it wouldn't really reflect just how close the top tier of players have been this year.
Will come down to the annual WTF vote or no vote a la West’s and Greg Williams no votes for 40+ or Chris Grants 3 votes for a 10 possession game against Melbourne. Fyfe, Cripps and lesser extent Neale have little opposition whereas Bont has Jack/Dunks and Dangerfield has Kelly competing for the 3 votes. That could be the difference. No clear winner in media/AFL awards unlike other years when Dusty, Danger, Fyfe, Ablett nearly scooped the pool. As long as Bont doesnt do a ‘Darcy’!


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Dogs Rule

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Feel sick for saying this but I would be comfortable with a Plastics win. Not happy, just ‘it’s over and we don’t have to listen to Tigers supporters all summer’.

The smugness of Tigers supporters is already too much to bear.
 
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Chicago1

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No!!!!!!! The driver of the senior bus who took me to rehab today is a Richmond supporter. I just can't win. :( That's why I'm tipping a Dangerfield Brownlow tonight. :p
 

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