Paine vs Haddin

[corbies]

The rating of wicket keeping ability gets really skewed at times and I think it's because the very nature of it can't really be judged by stats (byes let through is a shocking stat to judge keepers off) so it just goes off what people see immediately. Once the opinion is made on a player by someone on their first few viewings it is very difficult for that opinion to be changed.

Paine was identified very early as a gun keeper and the opinion just seems to have stayed that way despite what I would think have been some pretty obvious flaws in his ability to keep. You also seem to get a better reputation with the gloves if you are a s**t batsman with the vice versa also true. If you can bat you must be flawed with the gloves and be picked for your batting.

 

[PhatBoy]

The rating of wicket keeping ability gets really skewed at times and I think it's because the very nature of it can't really be judged by stats (byes let through is a shocking stat to judge keepers off) so it just goes off what people see immediately. Once the opinion is made on a player by someone on their first few viewings it is very difficult for that opinion to be changed.

Paine was identified very early as a gun keeper and the opinion just seems to have stayed that way despite what I would think have been some pretty obvious flaws in his ability to keep. You also seem to get a better reputation with the gloves if you are a sh*t batsman with the vice versa also true. If you can bat you must be flawed with the gloves and be picked for your batting.

This. I thought Gilly was a sensational keeper but no one remembers it because he was just so good with the bat.

 

[Gethelred]

This. I thought Gilly was a sensational keeper but no one remembers it because he was just so good with the bat.

Gilly's last 3-4 years were as good as any I've seen with the gloves and I can't remember him when he first came into the team so this is heresay, but apparently he wasn't much chop when he first came in.

 

[Tassieboy]

Paine’s had his worst series with the gloves by a long way. Overall, he’s been very good for the most part since his return for the 17/18 Ashes. People’s recollections are based upon one series.

However, keeping at 36 is a tough slog and maybe it’s now getting past him, especially with the added responsibilities of being captain.

Haddin finished at 37; Gilchrist 36; Healy 35; Marsh 36. None were also captain. Maybe it’s time to pass on the baton to Carey, who is late-20s and probably more than capable.

In saying that, I’m not sure Paine is yet Australia’s biggest problem. Starc has been mightily flattered averaging 40+ with the ball this series and Lyon and had his worst ever series, averaging close to 60. It’s hard to carry that. It doesn’t help that the designated all-rounder was hardly bowled and didn’t take a wicket. This alongside dismal options (aside for Puc) to open with Warner and a number 5 in Wade who basically failed.

 

[The Passenger]

However, keeping at 36 is a tough slog and maybe it’s now getting past him, especially with the added responsibilities of being captain.

I think Paine is still our best keeper available, but there are some danger signs. Keeper's are pretty notorious for falling off a cliff quickly and he's in the danger age for that to happen.

In saying that, I’m not sure Paine is yet Australia’s biggest problem.

Agreed, A long way from it.

For mine, our problems In order, although very little separating the first seven at the moment:
1) Our opening partnerships. Abysmal this series, even worse in 2019. Aside from flashes here and there, we just aren't getting a good base to start an innings. Warner generally does well in Australia but has limited in support. Outside of Australia it's been real poor with the 2019 Ashes the "pinnacle" of that. Puc is the great white hope here.
2) Our sixth batsmen.
3) Getting something resembling consistency into Starc. Yeah he's an inconsistent match winner and that is his role. He'll never be a stock bowler. But he is far too inconsistent and the list of match winnings performances against good opposition is looking pretty light on for the amount of chances he has had.
4) Getting Warner's overseas performances up to scratch. Ties in with #1. At his age, this is unlikely to ever be resolved.
5) Our batting depth, which looks like it's going to be called upon reasonably regularly for a little while with Puc's history whilst Warner can't be too far away from retirement, and there is also no guarantee's that Puc or Green are going to cement their positions. This problem could sky rocket to #1 very quickly and suddenly and if it does, we'll be in a world of pain.
6) Getting Puc and Green up to speed and settled in test cricket. If we do this, it will help with a lot of other issues - the poor opening stands, we can carry a sixth batsmen if we have five performing, and our depth will only get exposed when injury hits.
7) Paine's defensive captaincy.
8) Lyon's flagging form - I'm confident Swepson will be a decent test bowler but if he has to debut in an Ashes series that will be a big ask. A poor South African series will really put the blowtorch on this problem.
9) Paine's glovework - whilst still the best in country for mine, as above there are certainly some warning bells ringing.

 

[Caesar]

Gotta factor in Haddin didn't get a run at test cricket till he was nearly 31 so there was about 5-6 years of his prime that he missed out on at the top level which would have beefed up his performances.

Yeah, I think a lot of people forget this. Haddin is NSW’s all-time sixth-highest Sheffield Shield runscorer, with an average of 42. For reference, that’s roughly on a par with Mark Taylor.

After the age of 30, his batting suffered from the physical demands of keeping wicket. We definitely didn’t get the best of his batting at Test level.

 

[Caesar]

This. I thought Gilly was a sensational keeper but no one remembers it because he was just so good with the bat.

Gilly's last 3-4 years were as good as any I've seen with the gloves and I can't remember him when he first came into the team so this is heresay, but apparently he wasn't much chop when he first came in.

To be honest I always though Gilchrist’s keeping was a bit overrated. He had a fantastic left glove, but his footwork was never that great. That said, his amazing athleticism covered most deficiencies.

 

[Gethelred]

I think Paine is still our best keeper available, but there are some danger signs. Keeper's are pretty notorious for falling off a cliff quickly and he's in the danger age for that to happen.



Agreed, A long way from it.

For mine, our problems In order, although very little separating the first seven at the moment:
1) Our opening partnerships. Abysmal this series, even worse in 2019. Aside from flashes here and there, we just aren't getting a good base to start an innings. Warner generally does well in Australia but has limited in support. Outside of Australia it's been real poor with the 2019 Ashes the "pinnacle" of that. Puc is the great white hope here.
2) Our sixth batsmen.
3) Getting something resembling consistency into Starc. Yeah he's an inconsistent match winner and that is his role. He'll never be a stock bowler. But he is far too inconsistent and the list of match winnings performances against good opposition is looking pretty light on for the amount of chances he has had.
4) Getting Warner's overseas performances up to scratch. Ties in with #1. At his age, this is unlikely to ever be resolved.
5) Our batting depth, which looks like it's going to be called upon reasonably regularly for a little while with Puc's history whilst Warner can't be too far away from retirement, and there is also no guarantee's that Puc or Green are going to cement their positions. This problem could sky rocket to #1 very quickly and suddenly and if it does, we'll be in a world of pain.
6) Getting Puc and Green up to speed and settled in test cricket. If we do this, it will help with a lot of other issues - the poor opening stands, we can carry a sixth batsmen if we have five performing, and our depth will only get exposed when injury hits.
7) Paine's defensive captaincy.
8) Lyon's flagging form - I'm confident Swepson will be a decent test bowler but if he has to debut in an Ashes series that will be a big ask. A poor South African series will really put the blowtorch on this problem.
9) Paine's glovework - whilst still the best in country for mine, as above there are certainly some warning bells ringing.

Need to take Renshaw, Handscomb, Kurtis Patterson, Green, Pucovski, Harris, Head to the Australian Institute of Sport and to keep them there for 6 months. For each of them, the goal isn't to completely reshape their techniques and to turn them into little cricketing metronomes. They have their own reasons and methods and areas in which they're good at scoring.

What we need to do is to revamp Handscomb's early batting, to get him other scoring shots to get from 0-25 without needing to score through third man, and to allow him to drive straight of the wicket against those LBW threats. We need to work with Head so that those cuts he throws his hands at go to ground or are better placed than they are at present, and that he feels comfortable to be himself, express himself as an attacking player ahead of feeling restrained at all times. Patterson just needs to find some form. Renshaw needs to face 1000 balls from a variety of bowlers - I'd get in touch with Flintoff, and ask him to assist with the programme Renshaw will face - from around the wicket, and to become comfortable with where his off stump is. Green needs - essentially - to be tied to Patterson, because the bloke can rotate the strike in his sleep. Pucovski needs conditioning and to just work through some of his issues. Harris could be - if you could get in his head - a similar player to Dean Elgar if he were to learn how to avoid throwing his wicket away.

Our problem over the last 10-20 years hasn't solely been production, but development. Each of these players - of which Handscomb and Head both have been spruiked as potential future captains - has decent cricket in them, and as good test match chops as any we've produced for quite a while. Instead of looking at what they can't do, realise that they are the best we've got at present, and work with them to improve.

Putting a mark through their name is perhaps a useful thing to do when you've got Hayden at two, Ponting at 3, Clarke at 5, Hussey at six and Gilly at 7. Right now, the cupboard's bare.

 

[Santana]

Haddin was clearly a better bat than Paine. Not sure what some of you are talking about.

 

[PhatBoy]

Haddin was clearly a better bat than Paine. Not sure what some of you are talking about.

Had loads more ability, wasn't generally prepared to grind though, made a fair few good time runs.

 

[Santana]

Paine is definitely a better grinder. I actually thought Paine's SR would be higher looking at it now. For some reason I feel he bats like Haddin more often then some people would believe. Counterattacking type of batting. Not sure why.

 

[PhatBoy]

Paine is definitely a better grinder. I actually thought Paine's SR would be higher looking at it now. For some reason I feel he bats like Haddin more often then some people would believe. Counterattacking type of batting. Not sure why.

he's generally busy if unspectacular. While keeper-batsmen like Gilchris, Pant, QDK are not in huge supply, nor are the Watling types who really drop anchor. The norm seems to be that they are constantly looking to score or at least turn the strike over fairly regularly.

 

[Hamingja]

Paine is definitely a better grinder. I actually thought Paine's SR would be higher looking at it now. For some reason I feel he bats like Haddin more often then some people would believe. Counterattacking type of batting. Not sure why.

He has been forced to be more aggressive since Cummins forgot how to bat.

 

[Some Idiot]

Paine's a bit more consistent in terms of churning out gritty starts, whereas Haddin had more ability to go big, but also got out cheaply fairly often.

 

[to1994]

Need to take Renshaw, Handscomb, Kurtis Patterson, Green, Pucovski, Harris, Head to the Australian Institute of Sport and to keep them there for 6 months. For each of them, the goal isn't to completely reshape their techniques and to turn them into little cricketing metronomes. They have their own reasons and methods and areas in which they're good at scoring.

What we need to do is to revamp Handscomb's early batting, to get him other scoring shots to get from 0-25 without needing to score through third man, and to allow him to drive straight of the wicket against those LBW threats. We need to work with Head so that those cuts he throws his hands at go to ground or are better placed than they are at present, and that he feels comfortable to be himself, express himself as an attacking player ahead of feeling restrained at all times. Patterson just needs to find some form. Renshaw needs to face 1000 balls from a variety of bowlers - I'd get in touch with Flintoff, and ask him to assist with the programme Renshaw will face - from around the wicket, and to become comfortable with where his off stump is. Green needs - essentially - to be tied to Patterson, because the bloke can rotate the strike in his sleep. Pucovski needs conditioning and to just work through some of his issues. Harris could be - if you could get in his head - a similar player to Dean Elgar if he were to learn how to avoid throwing his wicket away.

Our problem over the last 10-20 years hasn't solely been production, but development. Each of these players - of which Handscomb and Head both have been spruiked as potential future captains - has decent cricket in them, and as good test match chops as any we've produced for quite a while. Instead of looking at what they can't do, realise that they are the best we've got at present, and work with them to improve.

Putting a mark through their name is perhaps a useful thing to do when you've got Hayden at two, Ponting at 3, Clarke at 5, Hussey at six and Gilly at 7. Right now, the cupboard's bare.

I get what you're saying but Handscomb is nearly 30 and the truth is that Smith is the exception, not the rule when it comes to an odd technique. Given he's been mediocre in the Shield I'd be happy to move on.

Patterson isn't that promising. He's had a good year here and there but I don't think he really has the motivation to make the proper step up.

Renshaw obviously fell away but what we saw from him in Tests, even in India was far more promising then anything from Bancroft or Harris. Those two are on the wrong side of 20 and we've seen enough to pursue younger options. I'm all for investing in Renshaw with the hope he can get back to his best and replace Warner in a couple of years. He's still only 23 and probably debuted earlier then was ideal so he's got plenty of time.

The group I'd be focusing on then is Renshaw, Head, Puc, Green and possibly Maddinson who I feel has the tools to succeed, he was just chosen at the worst possible time in his career and got nowhere near the run of someone like Harris.

 

[Gethelred]

I get what you're saying but Handscomb is nearly 30 and the truth is that Smith is the exception, not the rule when it comes to an odd technique. Given he's been mediocre in the Shield I'd be happy to move on.

Patterson isn't that promising. He's had a good year here and there but I don't think he really has the motivation to make the proper step up.

Renshaw obviously fell away but what we saw from him in Tests, even in India was far more promising then anything from Bancroft or Harris. Those two are on the wrong side of 20 and we've seen enough to pursue younger options. I'm all for investing in Renshaw with the hope he can get back to his best and replace Warner in a couple of years. He's still only 23 and probably debuted earlier then was ideal so he's got plenty of time.

The group I'd be focusing on then is Renshaw, Head, Puc, Green and possibly Maddinson who I feel has the tools to succeed, he was just chosen at the worst possible time in his career and got nowhere near the run of someone like Harris.

See, I don't think drawing lines through people is an astute use of our resources. It is on the coaches and the development to work with all of these players on the basis that while all of them won't make it if you treat them all the same some of them might surprise you.

Handscomb really isn't all that old, provided he can recapture the game that saw him become a middle order bat the first time around. His problem wasn't built from his odd technical quirks, it was entirely that you could get him before he got comfortable LBW and that he relied on scoring through third man to get going. Widen that initial shot selection and decrease that weakness to LBW, and you've got a test player.

He's also the best player against spin in the Australian setup outside Clarke for the last 15 years.

 

[Scotland]

Haddin made 493 runs in the 2013/14 Ashes.

Came in at 5/100 in the first test and top scored with 94. Made a quick fire 53 in the second innings before we eventually declared.
Made 118 in the second test in a big total.
Made 55 in the third test. His output wasn't vital.
Came in at 5/112 in the fourth test and top scored with 64.
Came in at 5/97 in the fifth test and made 75, Steve Smith went on to make 100.

Johnson was the clear man of the series but Haddin had strong claims to #2. Without Haddin's batting we don't win 5-0. His batting in the first test was crucial for how the series unfolded.

 

[LordLucifer]

Both are B-Grade.

 

[Pistol Night]

Paine also has 0 hundreds compared to 4

Both are a level behind gilly

About 4 levels below Gilly