Coach Richmond under Adem Yze

[windyhill]

As expected the “tiger army” has gone awol.

 

[Erakor]

As expected the “tiger army” has gone awol.

As expected, the waving jacket people are coming out of the woodworks.

It’s almost like there is some correlation between performance and people watching the game.

 

[Daka]

They'd be selling Lynch at an absolute low point given his injuries the past few seasons - I don't see any benefit for them doing that.

I don't think we'd be looking to sell Lynch anyway. he will be helping the rebuild he got he's 2 premierships & paid very well.
the only way I could see us trading him is it if he wanted to leave, which at this stage of his career, I don't think that would be the case.

Grimes is likely retiring this season & you still need leaders on your books we have lost so many the last couple of years.

 

[windyhill]

As expected, the waving jacket people are coming out of the woodworks.

It’s almost like there is some correlation between performance and people watching the game.

We have stuck like glue after decades of ineptness. One of the main reasons richmond came close to bankruptcy was because their “army” deserted them. Essendon didn’t deserve the crowds they got during the saga years, we did well to win the toss. Still showed up. rich and carl are the two worst when the going gets tough.

 

[mcgarnacle]

Is Taper an abbreviation of tapeworm?

 

[Dr Tigris]

Like others, right now the side is broken. All the main mids and KPFs (Balta back) out injured. So effectively no midfield or forward line.

I have no idea of where it will go. likely a good pick this year + trading into multiple round 1 picks. Hopefully a good injury list next year and we'll see. On paper a good team - if fit and in form.

 

[Jeremias]

Has been dealt a very tough hand through no fault of his own.

Can't possibly make a fair assessment until the end of next season, at the earliest.

 

[Mr Meow]

I thought people would unfairly come too hard at Yze but outside of a couple of Cats fans trying to sink the boots in (expected), most people are taking a pretty rational view.

This year has been and will be a disaster in the short term, but not a lot he can do about it so soon.

Does need time to shape the list the way he wants to, and to actually get some continuity in the side to teach them to play the way he wants to.

The likely big draft hand this year and probably next year will go a long way to the injection of young talent.

Just needs to keep developing the younger players on the list.

Astute trading and FA acquisitions when the time is right can accelerate a team but the key is to keep developing the young players and draft well for the next core.

Sorry, what? One Geelong supporter (Tilly...who just lays the boots into Carlton and Richmond wherever possible) has said Yze was a terrible appointment or has done poorly. Many have said he can't be judged or is making the best of a bad situation. You are making out as if all other neutrals have been fair and a few Cats supporters have done otherwise. Which is silly if you look at this thread.

 

[The 747]

Like others, right now the side is broken. All the main mids and KPFs (Balta back) out injured. So effectively no midfield or forward line.

I have no idea of where it will go. likely a good pick this year + trading into multiple round 1 picks. Hopefully a good injury list next year and we'll see. On paper a good team - if fit and in form.

As you and others impossible to tell from this season. What would be Richmond's options for trading into R1 picks? I imagine they would expect one for Baker if he leaves, but what else could be considered?

 

[Pomsta]

Unfortunately for Yze he might be a classic rebuild coach who won't survive the beatings over the next few years. Hope Richmond stick with him as I actually think he is very good, up against it massively at the moment with a lot of their senior core injured and the remaining have lost their drive.

Important to stock pile talent before Tassie arrive.

The last classic rebuild coach at Richmond lasted about 14 years and got us 3 Premierships. Dimma took over the team that was worse than Fitzroy. If the culture that Benny, Brown and Peggy instilled in Richmond continues now that they are going/gone I'm sure that Yze will be given every chance to succeed.

 

[Footy Smarts]

The last classic rebuild coach at Richmond lasted about 14 years and got us 3 Premierships. Dimma took over the team that was worse than Fitzroy. If the culture that Benny, Brown and Peggy instilled in Richmond continues now that they are going/gone I'm sure that Yze will be given every chance to succeed.

Dimma wasn't a rebuild coach. He started in 2010. In the 2006-2009 drafts you picked up Reiwoldt, Edwards, Cotchin, Rance, Martin and Grimes. The rebuild had been done you just needed development and to add the missing pieces with some trades and develop other role players.

Can you see a bunch of guys with the potential to be 300 gamers or multiple AA types who are under 23 on Richmond's current list? I'm struggling.

If you draft really, really well in 3 years you'll be where the list was when Hardwick started.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

The last classic rebuild coach at Richmond lasted about 14 years and got us 3 Premierships. Dimma took over the team that was worse than Fitzroy. If the culture that Benny, Brown and Peggy instilled in Richmond continues now that they are going/gone I'm sure that Yze will be given every chance to succeed.

Footy Smarts took the words out of my mouth.

Hardwick came in at a much better time than Yze. You don’t have a quarter of the young talent on the list. That is what the next three years will be about, and why the Hopper trade was so bad. If Yze can make it through the next 60-80 games unscathed he will be a master coach.

 

[Lsta062]

It's the same thing that happened to Hawthorn and the same thing I fear Carlton will do, albeit without 3 flags. Going for broke on mature players, abandon the draft and sell your future. It's the dumbest list management strategy. The worst thing a club can do is overestimate where they are at.

We are actually in Hawthorn’s position by doing the opposite of what they did. Hawthorn kept neglecting the draft while we kept going to the draft as a top team and relying on it too much.

The thing is, we’re primarily here because the draftees from 2018-2021 haven’t come on/aren’t coming on as quickly as we hoped. Especially from 2018-2020. We drafted the following:

2018:
Riley Collier-Dawkins (delisted)
Jack Ross (plays semi-consistently, soon best 22 IMO)
Fraser Turner (delisted)
Luke English (delisted)
Jake Aarts (delisted)
Maverick Weller (SSP - delisted)
Sydney Stack (SSP - delisted)

2019:
Thomson Dow (not coming on)
Noah Cumberland (not coming on)
Will Martin (delisted)
Hugo Ralphsmith (in and out of the side)
Bigoa Nyuon (wasn’t coming on for us - traded to North Melbourne)
Marlion Pickett (best 22)

2020:
Samson Ryan (not playing frequently)
Maurice Rioli Jr (father-son - starting to cement a place in our side)
Mate Colina (Cat B rookie - not coming on)
Rhyan Mansell (playing semi-regularly)
Derek Eggmolesse-Smith (delisted)

2021:
Josh Gibcus (best 22 when fit but injured pretty much a whole 2 years)
Tom Brown (playing well)
Tyler Sonsie (doing OK, in and out of the side)
Samuel Banks (Unsure about this one)
Judson Clarke (Shown a bit, but not best 22 yet)
Matthew Parker (delisted)

Yeah, it doesn’t really paint a pretty picture. We could possibly have only 5 best-22 players from 4 seasons of the draft - Pickett, MRJ, Tom Brown, Ross, and Gibcus. Even then, only Tom Brown looks like becoming a top line star right now. As we can see though, we’ve taken a lot of draftees. Quite a few of these were with early picks relative to Hawthorn in their success era.

If we take out the draftees and focus on our recruiting from other teams, the only players we brought in within the same 2018-2021 period were Lynch and an ageing Tarrant who has since retired. We’ve since brought in Taranto, Hopper (and Koschitzke I guess), but it was just a little too late. If anything, the former two helped somewhat cushion the fall last year judging by our performance in their absence this year.

A good strategy is Geelong’s strategy of hitting the draft while also recruiting players from other teams. That way, you can recruit youth with future potential while addressing pressing needs with known quantities through trading. An ageing Geelong “sold the farm” for Jeremy Cameron, but that didn’t matter because they nailed draft picks and traded well over the years. In a similar vein, the Taranto + Hopper trade wouldn’t have been a problem if we traded more over the years + nailed our draft picks. Our form right now is actually a good insight into where we’d have been without Taranto and Hopper.

And this is unfortunately what Yze has to work with. Feel for him in a way.

TL;DR version - Richmond is here because of their ordinary drafting/developing of players and a lack of recruiting in the 2018-2021 period. They’re not here solely because of their acquisition of Taranto/Hopper. We pretty much bombed at least 3 seasons’ worth of drafting/recruiting with the other still being tentative, and that’s a significant period. Yze hasn’t inherited the best of lists here.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Sorry, what? One Geelong supporter (Tilly...who just lays the boots into Carlton and Richmond wherever possible) has said Yze was a terrible appointment or has done poorly. Many have said he can't be judged or is making the best of a bad situation. You are making out as if all other neutrals have been fair and a few Cats supporters have done otherwise. Which is silly if you look at this thread.

Read some of the early pages of the Geelong/Richmond rebuild thread and they can thank their lucky stars that Geelong supporters haven't been bothered to go harder.

Some unbelievable delusion in that thread, before they eventually deserted it.

 

[MadMundy]

 

[Dr Tigris]

As you and others impossible to tell from this season. What would be Richmond's options for trading into R1 picks? I imagine they would expect one for Baker if he leaves, but what else could be considered?

We have a stupid amount of picks (draft points). unless the AFL change the rules we can trade with teams with father sons / academy players for their first rounders - they win we win.

So the plan is that we will trade into the first round with Brisbane/Carlton etc.

And any trades or FA compo adds to that.

 

[Dr Tigris]

We are actually in Hawthorn’s position by doing the opposite of what they did. Hawthorn kept neglecting the draft while we kept going to the draft as a top team and relying on it too much.

The thing is, we’re primarily here because the draftees from 2018-2021 haven’t come on/aren’t coming on as quickly as we hoped. Especially from 2018-2020. We drafted the following:

2018:
Riley Collier-Dawkins (delisted)
Jack Ross (plays semi-consistently, soon best 22 IMO)
Fraser Turner (delisted)
Luke English (delisted)
Jake Aarts (delisted)
Maverick Weller (SSP - delisted)
Sydney Stack (SSP - delisted)

2019:
Thomson Dow (not coming on)
Noah Cumberland (not coming on)
Will Martin (delisted)
Hugo Ralphsmith (in and out of the side)
Bigoa Nyuon (wasn’t coming on for us - traded to North Melbourne)
Marlion Pickett (best 22)

2020:
Samson Ryan (not playing frequently)
Maurice Rioli Jr (father-son - starting to cement a place in our side)
Mate Colina (Cat B rookie - not coming on)
Rhyan Mansell (playing semi-regularly)
Derek Eggmolesse-Smith (delisted)

2021:
Josh Gibcus (best 22 when fit but injured pretty much a whole 2 years)
Tom Brown (playing well)
Tyler Sonsie (doing OK, in and out of the side)
Samuel Banks (Unsure about this one)
Judson Clarke (Shown a bit, but not best 22 yet)
Matthew Parker (delisted)

Yeah, it doesn’t really paint a pretty picture. We could possibly have only 5 best-22 players from 4 seasons of the draft - Pickett, MRJ, Tom Brown, Ross, and Gibcus. Even then, only Tom Brown looks like becoming a top line star right now. As we can see though, we’ve taken a lot of draftees. Quite a few of these were with early picks relative to Hawthorn in their success era.

If we take out the draftees and focus on our recruiting from other teams, the only players we brought in within the same 2018-2021 period were Lynch and an ageing Tarrant who has since retired. We’ve since brought in Taranto, Hopper (and Koschitzke I guess), but it was just a little too late. If anything, the former two helped somewhat cushion the fall last year judging by our performance in their absence this year.

A good strategy is Geelong’s strategy of hitting the draft while also recruiting players from other teams. That way, you can recruit youth with future potential while addressing pressing needs with known quantities through trading. An ageing Geelong “sold the farm” for Jeremy Cameron, but that didn’t matter because they nailed draft picks and traded well over the years. In a similar vein, the Taranto + Hopper trade wouldn’t have been a problem if we traded more over the years + nailed our draft picks. Our form right now is actually a good insight into where we’d have been without Taranto and Hopper.

And this is unfortunately what Yze has to work with. Feel for him in a way.

TL;DR version - Richmond is here because of their ordinary drafting/developing of players and a lack of recruiting in the 2018-2021 period. They’re not here solely because of their acquisition of Taranto/Hopper. We pretty much bombed at least 3 seasons’ worth of drafting/recruiting with the other still being tentative, and that’s a significant period. Yze hasn’t inherited the best of lists here.

We're where we are because we didn't get more talent, but mainly right now because our entire starting midfield and KPFs (until Balta came back, are out. The team is a mess due to injury. Which might be due to injury prone players, poor conditioning etc, or bad luck, or all 3.

The future for the squad is heavily dependent on whether we can get Taranto, Hopper, Balta etc in the field for the next few years. I am not anywhere near as confident as I'd like to be. Things have gone off the rails quickly. Maybe just bad luck, but I suspect a bit of FIG JAM happened.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Read some of the early pages of the Geelong/Richmond rebuild thread and they can thank their lucky stars that Geelong supporters haven't been bothered to go harder.

Some unbelievable delusion in that thread, before they eventually deserted it.

Unlike Tiger fans to desert a sinking ship

 

[Footy Smarts]

We are actually in Hawthorn’s position by doing the opposite of what they did. Hawthorn kept neglecting the draft while we kept going to the draft as a top team and relying on it too much.

The thing is, we’re primarily here because the draftees from 2018-2021 haven’t come on/aren’t coming on as quickly as we hoped. Especially from 2018-2020. We drafted the following:

2018:
Riley Collier-Dawkins (delisted)
Jack Ross (plays semi-consistently, soon best 22 IMO)
Fraser Turner (delisted)
Luke English (delisted)
Jake Aarts (delisted)
Maverick Weller (SSP - delisted)
Sydney Stack (SSP - delisted)

2019:
Thomson Dow (not coming on)
Noah Cumberland (not coming on)
Will Martin (delisted)
Hugo Ralphsmith (in and out of the side)
Bigoa Nyuon (wasn’t coming on for us - traded to North Melbourne)
Marlion Pickett (best 22)

2020:
Samson Ryan (not playing frequently)
Maurice Rioli Jr (father-son - starting to cement a place in our side)
Mate Colina (Cat B rookie - not coming on)
Rhyan Mansell (playing semi-regularly)
Derek Eggmolesse-Smith (delisted)

2021:
Josh Gibcus (best 22 when fit but injured pretty much a whole 2 years)
Tom Brown (playing well)
Tyler Sonsie (doing OK, in and out of the side)
Samuel Banks (Unsure about this one)
Judson Clarke (Shown a bit, but not best 22 yet)
Matthew Parker (delisted)

Yeah, it doesn’t really paint a pretty picture. We could possibly have only 5 best-22 players from 4 seasons of the draft - Pickett, MRJ, Tom Brown, Ross, and Gibcus. Even then, only Tom Brown looks like becoming a top line star right now. As we can see though, we’ve taken a lot of draftees. Quite a few of these were with early picks relative to Hawthorn in their success era.

If we take out the draftees and focus on our recruiting from other teams, the only players we brought in within the same 2018-2021 period were Lynch and an ageing Tarrant who has since retired. We’ve since brought in Taranto, Hopper (and Koschitzke I guess), but it was just a little too late. If anything, the former two helped somewhat cushion the fall last year judging by our performance in their absence this year.

A good strategy is Geelong’s strategy of hitting the draft while also recruiting players from other teams. That way, you can recruit youth with future potential while addressing pressing needs with known quantities through trading. An ageing Geelong “sold the farm” for Jeremy Cameron, but that didn’t matter because they nailed draft picks and traded well over the years. In a similar vein, the Taranto + Hopper trade wouldn’t have been a problem if we traded more over the years + nailed our draft picks. Our form right now is actually a good insight into where we’d have been without Taranto and Hopper.

And this is unfortunately what Yze has to work with. Feel for him in a way.

TL;DR version - Richmond is here because of their ordinary drafting/developing of players and a lack of recruiting in the 2018-2021 period. They’re not here solely because of their acquisition of Taranto/Hopper. We pretty much bombed at least 3 seasons’ worth of drafting/recruiting with the other still being tentative, and that’s a significant period. Yze hasn’t inherited the best of lists here.

This is a really good summary of the issues. 4x poor drafts (2021 still has time but not looking great). Then that was accentuated by trading out of the early parts of the next 2 drafts for Taranto and Hopper.

Unless something miraculous happens it'll be a 7 year gap in the list with at best 1-2 good players and 1-2 role players. When the recruits of the 2024-2026 drafts are coming into their prime (21-23 years old) guys on the other end of that gap (Balta, Bolton, Taranto, etc) will be 30-32 and just about finished.

 

[Ghost of Punt Road]

We are actually in Hawthorn’s position by doing the opposite of what they did. Hawthorn kept neglecting the draft while we kept going to the draft as a top team and relying on it too much.

The thing is, we’re primarily here because the draftees from 2018-2021 haven’t come on/aren’t coming on as quickly as we hoped. Especially from 2018-2020. We drafted the following:

2018:
Riley Collier-Dawkins (delisted)
Jack Ross (plays semi-consistently, soon best 22 IMO)
Fraser Turner (delisted)
Luke English (delisted)
Jake Aarts (delisted)
Maverick Weller (SSP - delisted)
Sydney Stack (SSP - delisted)

2019:
Thomson Dow (not coming on)
Noah Cumberland (not coming on)
Will Martin (delisted)
Hugo Ralphsmith (in and out of the side)
Bigoa Nyuon (wasn’t coming on for us - traded to North Melbourne)
Marlion Pickett (best 22)

2020:
Samson Ryan (not playing frequently)
Maurice Rioli Jr (father-son - starting to cement a place in our side)
Mate Colina (Cat B rookie - not coming on)
Rhyan Mansell (playing semi-regularly)
Derek Eggmolesse-Smith (delisted)

2021:
Josh Gibcus (best 22 when fit but injured pretty much a whole 2 years)
Tom Brown (playing well)
Tyler Sonsie (doing OK, in and out of the side)
Samuel Banks (Unsure about this one)
Judson Clarke (Shown a bit, but not best 22 yet)
Matthew Parker (delisted)

Yeah, it doesn’t really paint a pretty picture. We could possibly have only 5 best-22 players from 4 seasons of the draft - Pickett, MRJ, Tom Brown, Ross, and Gibcus. Even then, only Tom Brown looks like becoming a top line star right now. As we can see though, we’ve taken a lot of draftees. Quite a few of these were with early picks relative to Hawthorn in their success era.

If we take out the draftees and focus on our recruiting from other teams, the only players we brought in within the same 2018-2021 period were Lynch and an ageing Tarrant who has since retired. We’ve since brought in Taranto, Hopper (and Koschitzke I guess), but it was just a little too late. If anything, the former two helped somewhat cushion the fall last year judging by our performance in their absence this year.

A good strategy is Geelong’s strategy of hitting the draft while also recruiting players from other teams. That way, you can recruit youth with future potential while addressing pressing needs with known quantities through trading. An ageing Geelong “sold the farm” for Jeremy Cameron, but that didn’t matter because they nailed draft picks and traded well over the years. In a similar vein, the Taranto + Hopper trade wouldn’t have been a problem if we traded more over the years + nailed our draft picks. Our form right now is actually a good insight into where we’d have been without Taranto and Hopper.

And this is unfortunately what Yze has to work with. Feel for him in a way.

TL;DR version - Richmond is here because of their ordinary drafting/developing of players and a lack of recruiting in the 2018-2021 period. They’re not here solely because of their acquisition of Taranto/Hopper. We pretty much bombed at least 3 seasons’ worth of drafting/recruiting with the other still being tentative, and that’s a significant period. Yze hasn’t inherited the best of lists here.

A fairly accurate assesment though you've missed a few promising types. I know you're comparing a set of years with limited development, but some more recent recruits look okay and are not necessarily so 'young'.

Personally the better recruiting since 2021 makes the picture a bit different.
Tresise (Looks very promising)
Lefau (regularin 1sts)
Kaleb Smith (Was injured, looks very good)
Seth Campbell (regular in 1sts)
Steely Green (Might make it as a small forward)
Tylar Young (Playing 1sts)
Coulthard (Shows promise)
Bauer (Injured for a bit but looks a likely KPP)
McAuliffe (Already near being a fixture in the midfield)
Fawcett (young tall and injured, TBD)
Naismith (backup ruck, looks forgettable)

 

[Lockyer24]

I wasn’t sure on him as an appointment but Yze showed enough early on to back in. Their injuries and list profile is just completely out of whack right now to get wins

 

[skinnyP]

Incredible delusion.

There was no age gap on your list that they filled. Short, Baker, Bolton, Rioli and Graham are all around that age.

The club massively overrated their list, overpaid for a couple of good but not great mids and now have a gaping chasm where your young talent should be. The injury list is overstating how bad things are now but it's a glimpse into the future.

With the players that will move on in the next few years and the lack of talent coming through it'll take a miracle to sneak into finals again before Taranto and Hopper are finished. Contending is laughable.

Wow mate thats 5 players out of 44 in the prime age range. Great point!!!!!!!

 

[marcus1232]

Richmond are just paying the price clubs should pay for being successful for a long period of time.

You generally mortgage your future put all the chips in to try and snag a flag Richmond got 3 good on them.

Great time to bottom out as well considering all drafts 2026-2029/30 are likely to be extremely compromised by concessions for Tasmania

 

[Dangerousfield]

Yze took the poisoned chalice of a list in serious decline with only modest young talent.

You win three flags, you expect to have a long slow rebuild afterwards.

Will have pick 2/3/4'ish and another couple of picks in the twenties but with this list profile you'd really want to nail those picks.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Wow mate thats 5 players out of 44 in the prime age range. Great point!!!!!!!

5 best 22 across about a 2.5 year period is very standard. It means your best 22 is spread from 20-31. There was no list gap there.

I see you still think you're going to compete in a couple of years. I think reality is going to hit you square in the face in the next 18 months.

Your best team right now with real belief can compete and the optimists think it's just injuries that are the issue.

But even if Lynch gets back he'll be 32 next year having basically not played for 2 years. Baker and Martin will likely be gone. Grimes and Prestia don't look like turning the clock back. Vlastuin who has been superb will be 31 next season. Same with Nank and Broad will be 32. That's a lot of near term decline from your best team this year.

And where are the kids coming through to take their place? How many of the under 24s at Richmond would be worth a top 20 pick? Apart from Gibcus who will have now missed basically 2 full seasons I'd have Maurice Rioli as your most valuable youngster and nobody is handing over pick 20 for him.

Time will tell but I don't see how this team gets out of the bottom 6 before 2028.