Autopsy Roast & Toast, best vs Adelaide and changes for Dees on Anzac Day eve

[DickieKnee]

View attachment 1376693View attachment 1376694

You can almost see the plotting our downfall.

 

[Drunken Wookie]

It’s covered well below, but the public protection of the umpires is fair enough. It’s hard attracting people into umpiring and you certainly don’t want people at amateur and junior level thinking that umpire abuse is ok.

The problem rests less with the umpires and more with the AFL which continually change rules and interpretations, making it a near impossible game to adjudicate.

Yeah, some umpiring leaves a lot to be desired, and maybe the odd one will have some personal biases; maybe, but it’s a very difficult game to umpire.

I would be interested to read an anonymous survey of the umpires. Their honest thoughts on the rules would be interesting.


Partycorolla:
What makes anyone think that they are exempt from scrutiny. They review all of their games, each decision and non-decision and are routinely dropped until their performance improves.

A larger part of the reason there's so few umpires coming through is because there's no full-time work at the end of it. Honestly, would you commit to a profession knowing the best you can hope for is a secondary income? FT also addresses the interpretation of the rules, more time for training and clearer understanding.
I worked in retail for a long time and there's 16 year olds copping worse abuse daily than the garbled non-sense most umpires cop from the boundary 50 meters away.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

I think Soldo has to play. What that does our talls situation I don’t know. Maybe Miller misses, I don’t know but the 22 needs an overhaul with a bit of skill and enthusiasm.

Not sure who misses but we could lose 5 or 6 comfortably, just depends which ones.

I’ve liked Parker’s contributions lately but others have more class and future. HRS is probably injured. Ross is an honest contributor but he doesn’t appear to be the future and given he seems to have one suited position and he isn’t playing there, he can be dropped.

I’m loathe to criticise our backline. Balls rocketing into their area is not their fault.

I doubt it happens but I reckon we perform a whole lot better if we can make room for

McIntosh
Lambert
Soldo (necessary this week)
Stack
Rioli
Gibcus (suited to Fritsch, perhaps)

This may make us a bit tall but Melbourne are pretty tall themselves.

 

[partycorolla]

The fact that if there are serious review sessions as you say and consequences attached to them there is absolutely zero transparency. The same umpires continually performing badly keep getting a gig week after week. Also the fact that coaches are fined for voicing any grievances with them and they can now self administer punitive measures against players they judge as questioning their authority.

The best thing the AFL can do is make them full-time and hold them genuinely accountable for some of the absolutely absurd, game-changing calls/non-calls they make.

The best umpires go at above 92-95% accuracy and the worst go less than 85% and then they do get dropped.

Why they don't release the stats on it is beyond me. I know several AFL umps and get my info from them. They are accountable though. Unfortunately through not being transparent, the AFL is actually hiding just how well they do for 90% of games, just to protect the 10% of things that they get wrong and the 1% they get wrong at critical times.

Again though, it is worth noting the umpires administer the rules set by the AFL. The umpires probably couldn't give a crap about players questioning their decisions unless they are being abusive, using bad language or threatening gestures. That directive comes from the AFL. The umpires do what they are told or they get dropped. Yet they still cop the grief, when it's the AFL making up the crap that we have to watch now.

 

[partycorolla]

I don't see the issues being linked. We've won plenty of games despite poor umpiring, because we were in form. Now we've got a number of players struggling to find their best form and even those that are playing well aren't playing at their very best.

What would people blame if the free kick counts were reversed and we were still losing? We'd all blame form, so I see it as no different when the umpiring 'is against us'.

Fix the on field issues in regards to our structure and style of play and the results will come regardless of how many free kicks we get/don't get, just like it did during the 2017-2020 run.

The umpiring in the second half of 2021 wasn't the reason we fell off the cliff, we simply hit the wall as a team, with injuries mounting up and the hunger waning and players losing form we weren't able to produce the results we were all hoping for.

Nothing has changed so far in 2022 and IMO the frustration that comes from not being able to produce at the level we're accustomed to sees us give away some stupid free kicks which comes back to the ill discipline that I've spoken about throughout the season.

But sure lets blame the 'poor' umpiring as it's the easy way out rather than asking the hard questions about certain players who are premiership heroes, but quickly becoming a liability on the field

Quoted for accuracy. Absolutely spot on.

 

[_RT_]

Doesn’t explain why our players get targeted by the media for staging to the exclusion of any other club. Or why the rules were changed to specifically to make Richmond’s game plan less effective, also why a media campaign was launched by AFL media commentators to make sure the public knew we were going to get shafted on Ellis’s compensation. Or the “out of the blue” hysteria in 2018 4 rounds into the season about the “dire state of the game” and how a special committee of media coaches and media commentators with links to AFL house were going to save it.

Too many incidents keep stacking up to suggest AFL house don’t like us and their employees can get away with the consistently poor treatment we are receiving.

Not to mention an interstate club president of AFL controlled franchise coming out to actively campaign against a candidate for the CEO position. Smearing Gale as being too Vic centric while not putting forth any other recommendation for who he would back. Bizarre behaviour that’s been allowed to pass without any scrutiny from AFL media. I’d expect some pump pieces for Travis Auld in the coming weeks

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Seriously the narrative that there is some AFL conspiracy against us is nuts and it's the easy out for those who don't want to deal with the reality of the situation. That reality is our premiership core has reached the end of its cycle and like most sides who had a sustained run of success we're now having to rebuild the list to become a contender again.

Teams like Sydney WCE Hawthorn Saints Pies Dogs Dockers & Port who had runs during the late 2000s-early 2010s all dropped down the ladder and have had to rebuild through the draft. Geelong is the only side that hasn't really fallen away in that time, but they have sold their future to remain competitive and will drop off the cliff soon enough when the likes of Selwood Dangerfield Hawkins Duncan and co retire and they have to turn to unproven kids to carry them.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

I worked in retail for a long time and there's 16 year olds copping worse abuse daily than the garbled non-sense most umpires cop from the boundary 50 meters away.

I take your point about being full time but rather than take the attitude of ‘suck it up’ umpires maybe the 16 year olds in retail could have some protection too.

No one should have to head off to work each day knowing they’re about to cop abuse. Umpires and Police would be pretty resigned to it though.

There is of course plenty of hypocrisy re: the protection of umpires, though. Their job gets made harder for them constantly or the look of the game gets worse and fans don’t understand the rules or don’t like the look and it’s the umpires who bear the brunt of it.

And it’s hardly surprising. Have you ever tried to get some feedback to someone at the AFL? No one is answerable to fans, and the media never question it so it leaves the umps as the easiest targets for protest.

Despite the platitudes from head office, the umps are pretty much hung out to dry

 

[partycorolla]

Your ignoring the fact that the rules were changed twice with the intention of countering Richmond’s game plan. That’s not conspiracy either, it’s the machinations of a very corrupt governing body.

If you don’t think the AFL will do everything it can to see Travis Auld get the CEO position you’ve slept through Gill and Demetriou (who committed purgury in a royal commission) administrations.


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Has been done for years to counter successful clubs. Whether it's right or not, it happens. Interchange limits to counter the Pies huge running and rotation power. Mimium kick distance to counter accurate 10 metre kicks by foot utilized by skilled team.

If you think this has only just happened for the very first time because it's Richmond, then you have a tin foil hat on.

It might be that it's the first time you care because it impacts us being good after a sustained period which hasn't happened for a long long time.

The AFL have always tried to recruit from within... why would it change this time?

Expecting a governing body to not be corrupt in any sport, government, religion or large businesses is pie in the sky thinking. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[bd3_]

Not all doom and gloom yet. These are the games we can win for some reason and i think we will. Melbourne will drop a game eventually and it could be us. The VFL Depth is playing well pressure for spots, were only 2-3. In 2015 hawks are 3-3 in round 6, 4-4 in round 8, losing to essendon who were a bottom 4 team. We're shaping up like them really but with probably more youngsters in the side due to our injuries (only dusty, lambert & grimes & mcintosh wholl be back this week, really missing at this point)

Roast
- jack graham

34

Jack Graham

Age

26

Ht

181cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.7

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.8

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

6.3

5star

G

0.4

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

5.3

2star

HB

6.5

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

4.2

5star

G

0.0

1star

D

14.0

4star

K

6.0

3star

HB

8.0

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

7.0

5star

G

1.0

4star

, early on when the cleanliness was needed he was nowhere, also crucial dumb kick into a smother late in the 3rd quarter
Toast
- rioli, cotchin: fantastic games

Bring in MRJ and hold lynch and/or reiwoldt forward to counterbalance may/lever - push balta up ground. Play shai in the midfield.

 

[partycorolla]

My view is that if they're full-time the standards have to rise, you can't go out and haphazardly blow your whistle and decide you'll only pay frees one-way today, it's your livelihood on the line not a side gig. It's the difference in hiring a full-time employee and a casual. You demand and expect more from a ft'er.
I'm not saying go out and instantly make every umpire a full-timer, it'd be earned like any workplace progression.
It'd drive more consistency and that's all most of us ask. Not perfection, just the rules applied the same way week to week. My two cents.

I'd have to disagree, particularly in the short term. It would just mean that the best umps would walk away from the game. Pure and simple. Why would they choose to focus on a career that has a maximum of 20 years (if everything goes amazingly well - the average would be less than half of that) when they have to feed their families for a lot longer?

If you could create an entire career pathway for them, then perhaps that might work but what else would you get them to do? They train for their fitness in their own time anyway for a large part and that's less critical than it used to be given there are 3 umps now.

I love the consistency argument. Let's say an umpire makes a mistake or misses a hold because it happens on the blind side of the contest? They then see the replay that Lynch was held? Do they pay the next one when they see it or not pay to be consistent? The absolute age-old instruction is simple. Pay the free kick you see, don't pay one you can't see. We have a 360 game, played on a huge sporting field where you can have up to 30-34 players within 50 metres of the contest, all potentially engaging in actions that may trangress the rules. You have 3 sets of eyes on those 30-34 players. They are interpreting in a split second, where contact was made, if a jumper was pulled, then working out if the player had prior or not, trying to read minds as to the intent of player in making a genuine attempt to get rid of it or keep it in play or where their eyes are looking, if they are under pressure or not, did they duck, are they excentuating contact, did they make a legal handball, did the tackle knock the ball out.... and then try and line that up with rules that are worded in a particularly grey manner - reasonable time (no measurement of reasonable), insufficient intent (does that mean if a player had 5% intent to keep it in it's not enough?), if a player is under pressure (not defined), to make a decision - within a seond.

If that isn't hard enough, the 'interpretation' of what these worded rules look like are changed regularly by the AFL to suit whatever issue they have at the time. Mostly, this creates more grey than black and white and with 40+ umpires on the list, it can be hard to get consensus... even when they do rule scenarios based off vision in training, they don't get them all the same and the coaches have to talk through some of the scenarios. So the AFL goes to the umpires coaches and says, we don't think 'x' rule has been applied the way we intended and then you get a crackdown (denied by both AFL and umpires as a direction publicly but I can tell you it happens as it's the focus of coaching and scenario work that week), hence rules applied differently week to week. We've always seen the rule of the week paid in the Friday night game!

If we actually want the game to be umpired 'better' or more consistently, then ask the umpires what rules and interpretations will be easy for them to adjudicate on. Trouble is we might not like the results. The now defunct hands in the back rule was super easy to umpire - if there was contact to the back of the jumper by the hands in a marking contest, free kick. It was umpired well. Was it good for the game? I would argue that hands in the back doesn't meet the criteria for a 'push in the back' rule, we've had for so many years. So the rule gets changed and then we get a missed free against Hawkins (which was shocking) but the umpire has to interpret 3 more things and in this case, got it wrong.

The one that annoyed me was the 360 degree tackle example given pre-season and we have seen Tigers get pinged (correctly) for a couple this year but then it happens against us twice in Adelaide where they were tackled and turned around once and twice, yet no whistle. That's an obvious reference point for an umpire and should be picked up. Was it the lack of crowd yelling ball? Let's hope that isn't a factor but statistically it seems like it is.

I don't think full time umpires fixes the above. A full time umpires consultant or member on the rules of the game committee might help though (if they don't have one), especially if they actually listen to them when discussing impact on the game/adjudication of the rules.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Not all doom and gloom yet. These are the games we can win for some reason and i think we will. Melbourne will drop a game eventually and it could be us. The VFL Depth is playing well pressure for spots, were only 2-3. In 2015 hawks are 3-3 in round 6, 4-4 in round 8, losing to essendon who were a bottom 4 team. We're shaping up like them really but with probably more youngsters in the side due to our injuries (only dusty, lambert & grimes & mcintosh wholl be back this week, really missing at this point)

Roast
- jack graham, early on when the cleanliness was needed he was nowhere, also crucial dumb kick into a smother late in the 3rd quarter
Toast
- rioli, cotchin: fantastic games

Bring in MRJ and hold lynch and/or reiwoldt forward to counterbalance may/lever - push balta up ground. Play shai in the midfield.

yep so poor that multiple players couldnt hit 15 metre passes in blazing sunshine in the first Q when we could have put them out of the game.

Takes the umpire out of the game when you hit those passes, doesn't give them a chance to go 33-13 against us via crowd-pleasing 'interpretations'

 

[Do the Dew]

I'm not a fan of highlighting overly negative stuff. If you give me the timestamps, I'll do it for you, but otherwise I'm not going to go and waste my time specifically to look for instances where we got shafted.

You'll have no time left!!

Ah I'm sad now..

 

[tony__montana]

Hopefully the MC make the right decisions moving forward. No doubt Lambert and Kmac will add a lot to our side but so would mj and stack. Keep bringing in and playing the kids.

This side lacks energy(hunger?) there’s no point hoping that all the older players will get fit to play together bc we’re not good enough with all the older players in the side anymore.
. But find that balance of some young enthusiastic classy youngsters with some
Older players and we may just find the right ingredient.

 

[Truetiger]

Why, why, why do we often just bomb it into the space in front of goals with Jack and Tom competing for a mark with several opposition players? We get it into the forward line often but just seem to waste it a lot.

Yeh shits me that, continue to do it every week.

 

[Hoos]

Then we beat Collingwood since we have not beaten since 76

Beat them at Victoria Park too, from memory, which didn't happen that often.

 

[Wooden Robot]

A larger part of the reason there's so few umpires coming through is because there's no full-time work at the end of it. Honestly, would you commit to a profession knowing the best you can hope for is a secondary income? FT also addresses the interpretation of the rules, more time for training and clearer understanding.
I worked in retail for a long time and there's 16 year olds copping worse abuse daily than the garbled non-sense most umpires cop from the boundary 50 meters away.

I've known three AFL umpires in my lifetime ... one who lived up the road from me.
They relish the fact they are a teacher and banker first, AFL umpire second.
They love their other part of life.
PS I guarantee ... if they become full-time the umpiring might improve a little bit, but the umpire bashing and abuse won't.
It's part of people's DNA - especially on Big Footy.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

don't rule out 12 wins in a row from this point on

Aarts for Brownlow

 

[TigFan1966]

PS I guarantee ... if they become full-time the umpiring might improve a little bit, but the umpire bashing and abuse won't.
It's part of people's DNA - especially on Big Footy.

Of course people will complain about umpiring, but it's naive to think that all complaints are unfounded. Reminds me of the saying: "Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they are not after you".

 

[guruisatiger]

Team for round 6 against dee's

B--- short ---- tarrant---- d Rioli
Hb- Broad ‐ miller-- Vlastuin
Cl - kmac --- RCD-- pickett
Hf- Bolton- balta -- baker
Ff- MJR - lynch-- gibcus
R-'soldo ‐ Dow-- prestia
Int - cotch- biggy- lambo- stack
Sub Graham or Ross

 

[Tiger51]

Clearly based on our performances both this year and last our older list is unable to play at a consistent level for us to expect to be able to compete and win finals. I feel it is time for the selectors to plan for the future and where it is beneficial to the younger players give them game time and give the fans a glimpse of the future. As a 70 year supporter (born in Richmond) I enjoy both our VFL & AFL matches and enjoy the journey as we rebuild for ultimate glory. Our club is in safe hands and as supporters we need to show our faith in the club and trust this journey will achieve the results we all want to see, hopefully in the near future (who knows weather we wii still be around)

 

[Bojangles17]

I've been saying he should come into the side since about round 17 last year - his pace & attack is an x-factor that can flip a script on a stagnant forwardline.


Side should look like this IMO

B: Gibcus Balta Grimes
HB: Short Broad Vlaustin

C: K-Mac Cotchin Pickett

HF: D.Rioli Riewoldt Baker
F: MRJ Lynch Stack

Foll: Nank Prestia Bolton

Bench from : Lambert Castagna Dow Graham Ralpsmith Mansell Edwards

Last year he looked way wet behind the ears, has most def improved , getting where the ball is says that and he brings genuine heat that we need and value in spades ,,,Defenders waltzed out of our f50 v crows . Let’s see where he’s at ,,,Stacky in too adds some danger when ball get i50

 

[Bojangles17]

Obviously Hamish Hartlett must have done something far worse than anything we did in the hub given the umpire pinged him for deliberate out of bounds.

Ssssshhhh don’t confound the theory or dare mention the PA piss up during hub time , just a tad more jeopardy in that than a trip to the nail salon

 

[Groupie_]

Aarts for Brownlow

aarts is my idol

 

[Wooden Robot]

Last year he looked way wet behind the ears, has most def improved , getting where the ball is says that and he brings genuine heat that we need and value in spades ,,,Defenders waltzed out of our f50 v crows . Let’s see where he’s at ,,,Stacky in too adds some danger when ball get i50

So where is all this forward pressure ad where are those guarding the space?

 

[Bojangles17]

So where is all this forward pressure ad where are those guarding the space?

Would have to look at pressure rating of our small med players , Jack is there too , we had 61 entries and they got it out too easy , I’m no norm smith but it tells me something we need to work on