- Jun 9, 2008
- 10,805
- 8,577
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Pendlebury is a bit like Boomer Harvey.
Very good player for a very long period of time.
But meh.
Very good player for a very long period of time.
But meh.
Scott Pendlebury - Standing in the game?
- Thread starter Fadge
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Sep 14, 2005
- 18,420
- 18,667
Ow what you would’ve done to have ‘meh’ in your midfield. He might’ve dragged you over the line against the Lions like he did for us. Meh.
- Aug 3, 2020
- 18,721
- 31,026
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
- Other Teams
- Boston Celtics, Liverpool
Hilarious
- Aug 3, 2020
- 18,721
- 31,026
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
- Other Teams
- Boston Celtics, Liverpool
Luckily they drafted Marc Murphy instead!
South of the Yarra
Premium Platinum
- Jul 23, 2006
- 11,033
- 18,302
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
Imagine if 'Flat Track Charlie Curnow' had Pendles final record.
My opinion, very good player but overrated because he plays for Collingwood - a level below the top dozen midfielders of the past 20 years.
Apparently played basketball.
Apparently played basketball.
Ted Parker
TED: How’s June?
C'mon mate, he kicked 19 against WCE...
One of the all time greats in my opinion.
Sure he's slowed down a bit now, but a few years ago it was like he had a sixth sense sometimes. Would watch him in some games and think "how the * did he do that?"
Not too many players I can say that about.
Sure he's slowed down a bit now, but a few years ago it was like he had a sixth sense sometimes. Would watch him in some games and think "how the * did he do that?"
Not too many players I can say that about.
- Sep 14, 2005
- 18,420
- 18,667
But he lacks in score involvements, so it doesn’t matter…
- Nov 6, 2011
- 3,365
- 9,021
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
Disagree with the notion that he's slowed down a bit. The way I see it he is the same pace as he's always been which has never been quick but it turns out you don't need all that much pace if you have a footy IQ and a level of poise that's completely off the charts.
I've seen a few players be better at their peak, but I'm not sure I've seen any with the same consistency
I've seen a few players be better at their peak, but I'm not sure I've seen any with the same consistency
RichLeMonde
Club Legend
You’re actually spot on. He’s not dominant as a contested and clearance player, and he’s not dominant as an attacking mid, in terms of score involvements. He’s not up there for metres gained. He is up there for effective disposals and efficiency, but these disposals don’t convert to downfield scores, at least not as often as for other mids, and don’t contribute to big metres gained numbers, suggesting he handballs a lot and kicks relatively short.
And that’s why his coaches votes/game average is lower than a number of mids who do dominate either contested/clearance or score involvements or both. His career coaches votes are up there because of his longevity.
I daresay most coaches votes is a pretty good marker for the best midfielders debuting 2005 onwards (they can only be found for all players 2006 onwards besides the winners the previous 3 years). Judd's debut season of 2002 means his stellar 2004-2005 are missing so it's tricky to rate him other than adding equivalent totals for his two best seasons. I'd say he has 160-200 votes missing overall.
Like you said it also rewards longevity. His average has gone down because he's playing in his mid 30s but still the tally grows. If Martin plays til 36/37 his average will drop too.
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Here are those tallies for the top 40 midfielders for coaches votes since the award came out in 2003. Note that tallies were not made available 2003-2005, so best estimates were applied using the closest matching season (statistically, Brownlow, fantasy points). Mostly this effect was negligible, outside of Judd and Goodes who had excellent seasons between 2003-2005.
Judgement call was to exclude players who had most of their career outside of the Coaches Votes era (so Black misses out but Goodes is included). Obviously many careers are still in progress so it'll be interesting to see where everyone ends up:
Judgement call was to exclude players who had most of their career outside of the Coaches Votes era (so Black misses out but Goodes is included). Obviously many careers are still in progress so it'll be interesting to see where everyone ends up:
| Position | Player | Coaches votes |
1 | Ablett | 1020 |
2 | Dangerfield | 894 |
3 | Pendlebury | 889 |
4 | Selwood | 817 |
5 | Martin | 783 |
6 | Judd | 725 |
7 | S.Mitchell | 720 |
8 | Bontempelli | 664 |
9 | Fyfe | 635 |
10 | Neale | 617 |
11 | Cotchin | 593 |
12 | Boak | 590 |
13 | Swan | 571 |
14 | Kennedy | 561 |
15 | Hodge | 560 |
16 | Goodes | 560 |
17 | Parker | 547 |
18 | Mundy | 521 |
19 | Oliver | 504 |
20 | Merrett | 498 |
21 | Cripps | 482 |
22 | Murphy | 478 |
23 | Sloane | 462 |
24 | Gray | 453 |
25 | Bartel | 440 |
26 | Sidebottom | 433 |
27 | Macrae | 427 |
28 | Petracca | 419 |
29 | Wines | 418 |
30 | Priddis | 413 |
31 | Hannebery | 401 |
32 | Laird | 396 |
33 | Gaff | 390 |
34 | Burgoyne | 385 |
35 | Watson | 377 |
36 | Duncan | 363 |
37 | T.Mitchell | 362 |
38 | J.Kelly | 360 |
39 | Lewis | 351 |
40 | Prestia | 334 |
RichLeMonde
Club Legend
Appreciate the effort, but it looks like that ranking is strongly correlated with the number of seasons played, for a given player.
Would be good to get a column for number of seasons, and average coaches votes per game, to cross reference.
Did you estimate and add coaches votes for 2003-05 for all players on that list who played those seasons (ie Hodge and Mitchell as well as Judd and GAJ)?
- Sep 14, 2005
- 18,420
- 18,667
Why do you keep bringing up number of seasons played? You still have to be a very good footballer who consistently plays very good games of footy against your peers to get coaches votes.
It’s even more impressive if a player can continue to be amongst the best on ground for so long. Why’re you discrediting that?
It’s like me saying if Richmond didn’t play in a GF in 2020, Dusty wouldn’t have another Norm Smith. He still had to play it and win it.
- Thread starter
- #922
It really is astounding.
These are the same people who are talking up Martin as the GOAT, and using this season as a 32 year old, as evidence of that - AA Squad, 2nd in the best and fairest for the 13th placed club (20% of votes from the winner), nearly half his coaches votes and brownlow votes in two dead rubber games after his team was eliminated from finals calculations (after missing the must win game the week prior).
But they're unwilling to acknowledge the contribution of a 35 year old opposition player to his team's premiership success (after spending the past handful of years telling us 'finals are everything').
Wowee.
If you retire at 31 with a coaches votes average of 3 game I don't necessarily think that is better than a player who plays on until 36 and in that time his coaches votes average drops from 2.9 to 2.5 a game in the end. Different if we are comparing him to a player who was out of his league at the time they were both 31 (e.g 3.2 votes per game compared to 2 votes per game).
Pendlebury averaging 0.32 coaches votes per game less than Martin, having played 4 seasons more, I consider irrelevant as 4 years ago Pendlebury's coaches votes average was 2.78 per game (identical to Martin's is nowl). So a punishment for time played after doesn't make sense, unless that player was truly a liability - obviously not the case for Pendlebury 2023.
I know Martin's Brownlow votes per game took a knock this season but he still had a decent-great season for a 32 year old (depending on who you ask). That isn't decreasing from his legacy or class as a player at all even though his average will take a hit where Fyfe (for example) hasn't.
Getting per games averages will also simply inflate players in their prime. Better to just have the tallies and do the maths in your head about what will be required as far as quality seasons for them to move through the table. This is what we do with the goal kicking list.
I did all players for the estimate. So Hodge and Mitchell got a solid bump but not as big as Judd and Goodes. Ablett's 2004-2005 were similar to his coaches votes 49 of 2006 (it was still he and the regular gang getting votes before they became stars together) but I still went conservative on those (30 votes each). Most players on the list if they had those seasons they were rookie ones and not N.Daicos level rookie seasons.
RichLeMonde
Club Legend
I’m not discrediting it. I didn’t say “coaches votes total mean nothing, the only thing that means something is average votes/game”. But the opposite isn’t true either - that totals mean everything and averages mean nothing.
I said that they should be compared side by side, to create context.
As Mr Meow points out, players in their prime will have higher averages and lower totals; senior players will have higher totals and averages that have dropped off a bit, compared to their prime.
Coaches votes totals have only been available since 2006, which happens to be the exact year SP entered the league. It is not entirely surprising, then, that he sits near the top.
It’s a still a great testament to his sustained excellence, but would be more meaningful to cross reference against total seasons and averages.
