Scott Pendlebury - Standing in the game?

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Fadge said:
It really is astounding.

These are the same people who are talking up Martin as the GOAT, and using this season as a 32 year old, as evidence of that - AA Squad, 2nd in the best and fairest for the 13th placed club (20% of votes from the winner), nearly half his coaches votes and brownlow votes in two dead rubber games after his team was eliminated from finals calculations (after missing the must win game the week prior).

But they're unwilling to acknowledge the contribution of a 35 year old opposition player to his team's premiership success (after spending the past handful of years telling us 'finals are everything').

Wowee.
Click to expand...
This doesn’t really deserve a reply, but here goes.

When you say, “these are the same people…” you sound like a weirdo bigot who presumes that everyone in a group (ie a supporter base) has the same views. It’s actually a pretty toxic way to approach conversations about football.

You know perfectly well I don’t consider Martin anywhere near the GOAT. And I’ve never said anything about SP not contributing to the Pies’ 2023 flag. Conflating what different posters have said just because they barrack for the same team is poor form Fadge.
 
RichLeMonde baring in mind I couldn't be bothered recalculating averages with the 2003-2005 estimates, or re ordering this list based on rank:



PlayerAverage
Ablett
3.6​
Dangerfield
2.9​
Pendlebury
2.44​
Selwood
2.49​
Martin
2.78​
Judd
3.11​
S.Mitchell
2.86​
Bontempelli
3.15​
Fyfe
3.07​
Neale
2.58​
Cotchin
1.98​
Boak
1.75​
Swan
2.66​
Kennedy
2.09​
Hodge
1.97​
Goodes
2.07​
Parker
2.06​
Mundy
1.51​
Oliver
3.11​
Merrett
2.44​
Cripps
2.63​
Murphy
1.63​
Sloane
1.89​
Gray
1.72​
Bartel
1.7​
Sidebottom
1.47​
Macrae
1.9​
Petracca
2.38​
Wines
1.88​
Priddis
1.82​
Hannebery
1.97​
Laird
1.83​
Gaff
1.48​
Burgoyne
1.14​
Watson
1.86​
Duncan
1.4​
T.Mitchell
1.92​
J.Kelly
1.87​
Lewis
1.27​
Prestia
1.61​

1697075189147.png

Ablett > Bontempelli > Judd > Dangerfield > S.Mitchell > Martin > Swan > Cripps > Neale > Selwood > Pendlebury/Merrett > Petracca > Kennedy > Goodes > Hodge
 
The only truly senior players that survive around the top after this are Ablett and Dangerfield, but Ablett's earlier seasons would have him drop off a touch. Selwood and Pendlebury pay a tax, as will Martin soon, when compared to players in their prime like Cripps and Neale (IMO).
 

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Mr Meow said:
RichLeMonde baring in mind I couldn't be bothered recalculating averages with the 2003-2005 estimates, or re ordering this list based on rank:



PlayerAverage
Ablett
3.6​
Dangerfield
2.9​
Pendlebury
2.44​
Selwood
2.49​
Martin
2.78​
Judd
3.11​
S.Mitchell
2.86​
Bontempelli
3.15​
Fyfe
3.07​
Neale
2.58​
Cotchin
1.98​
Boak
1.75​
Swan
2.66​
Kennedy
2.09​
Hodge
1.97​
Goodes
2.07​
Parker
2.06​
Mundy
1.51​
Oliver
3.11​
Merrett
2.44​
Cripps
2.63​
Murphy
1.63​
Sloane
1.89​
Gray
1.72​
Bartel
1.7​
Sidebottom
1.47​
Macrae
1.9​
Petracca
2.38​
Wines
1.88​
Priddis
1.82​
Hannebery
1.97​
Laird
1.83​
Gaff
1.48​
Burgoyne
1.14​
Watson
1.86​
Duncan
1.4​
T.Mitchell
1.92​
J.Kelly
1.87​
Lewis
1.27​
Prestia
1.61​

View attachment 1829214

Ablett > Bontempelli > Judd > Dangerfield > S.Mitchell > Martin > Swan > Cripps > Neale > Selwood > Pendlebury/Merrett > Petracca > Kennedy > Goodes > Hodge
Click to expand...
Don’t forget Cotchin edging out Hodge. Unexpected but I’ll take it 😂
 
RichLeMonde said:
Don’t forget Cotchin edging out Hodge. Unexpected but I’ll take it 😂
Click to expand...
Maybe paying the hybrid tax as a back flanker who also played midfield, rather than the other way around. There's a few like that who could go in either list (e.g a midfielder list and defender list, or midfielder and forward list).

Hodge also got out to 346 games so he pays the late career tax. Judd at 270 odd and Cotchin just barely getting 300 would've lowered their average quite a chunk if they were somehow able to get to around 350 games. Swan at 257 games is a great example of protecting the average through a not-so-massive catalogue of games.

Mitchell at 329 games with his average is damn impressive though.
 
Mr Meow said:
Maybe paying the hybrid tax as a back flanker who also played midfield, rather than the other way around. There's a few like that who could go in either list (e.g a midfielder list and defender list, or midfielder and forward list).

Hodge also got out to 346 games so he pays the late career tax. Judd at 270 odd and Cotchin just barely getting 300 would've lowered their average quite a chunk if they were somehow able to get to around 350 games. Swan at 257 games is a great example of protecting the average through a not-so-massive catalogue of games.

Mitchell at 329 games with his average is damn impressive though.
Click to expand...
Agree. No way the Hawks 3-pear without Mitchell playing outstanding footy into his 30s (along with Burgoyne)
 
RichLeMonde said:
This doesn’t really deserve a reply, but here goes.

When you say, “these are the same people…” you sound like a weirdo bigot who presumes that everyone in a group (ie a supporter base) has the same views. It’s actually a pretty toxic way to approach conversations about football.

You know perfectly well I don’t consider Martin anywhere near the GOAT. And I’ve never said anything about SP not contributing to the Pies’ 2023 flag. Conflating what different posters have said just because they barrack for the same team is poor form Fadge.
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree totally. Collingwood posters always do this. :tearsofjoy:
 
Fadge said:
The update you've all been waiting for has finally arrived - Pendlebury v. Martin Career Rankings, season by season, which is the only fair and logical way to do it.

The best thing about doing it real time is the level of critical analysis one can apply.

For example - Pendlebury 5th in his club's best and fairest, whilst Martin finished 2nd at Richmond.

However, Martin was 20% of votes behind the winner, whilst Pendlebury was a mere 6% of votes behind Collingwood's winner, leaving in his wake All-Australian team member Darcy Moore (9th) and squad members Isaac Quaynor (6th) and Jordan De Goey (10th).

Martin came home with a wet sail in relation to Coaches votes, though it was a matter of too little, too late. Only 2 games worthy of Coaches votes in the first 13 rounds, by which time Richmond's season was on a knife edge. To be 'managed' in a must win round 22 game against St. Kilda, and follow up with 17 coaches votes in the final two games once Richmond were out of finals contention, doesn't excite this analyst.

The conclusion therefore was that if Martin's home and away season was slightly better than that of Pendlebury (and if it was, it was marginal), Pendlebury overtook him with his impressive finals series, culminating in, of course, THAT final quarter in the Grand Final.

View attachment 1826666

So Pendlebury now has 13 of the best 21 seasons combined for the two players - is there no end to this man's greatness?
Click to expand...

So you have Pendles 2023 rated higher than Martin’s 2023 … Martin in AA squad and Pendles not. 47 coach’s votes to 31. 8 B’low votes to 6. 5th in B&F to 2nd. Less disposals AND way less goals. And if you’ve done that because of the finals and the flag then no worries, Martin’s 2017/19/20 immediately go top-3.

But putting Pendles 2023 above Martin’s 2014 is even funnier:

Disposals:
Martin :25.4
Pendles : 22.8

Goals:
Martin : 1.2
Pendles : 0.4

I50’s:
Martin : 3.8
Pendles : 3.6

R50’s:
Martin : 1.9
Pendles : 1.1

Tackles:
Pendles 4.3
Martin : 2.5

GA’s:
Martin: 0.8
Pendles: 0.7

Clearances:
Pendles: 4.2
Martin 2.6

SI’s:
Martin: 7.0
Pendles: 5.9

CP’s:
Martin: 8.1
Pendles: 7.7

Coaches:
Martin: 45
Pendles: 31

Games polled votes:
Martin : 10
Pendles: 7

Brownlow:
Martin: 13
Pendles: 6

Brownlow games polled:
Martin: 8
Pendles: 3

AA squad?:
Martin: Yes
Pendles: No

B&F:
Martin: 3rd
Pendles: 5th

Unless of course Pendlebury’s last quarter has skyrocketed him up 8 x places? In which case you are going against everything you’ve ever trumpeted in this thread about how single games or patches of games influence the rating of a player. You’ve been highly critical of that previously…

Fadgeratings continue to provide an unbiased and balanced summary…. So long as we ignore anything resembling the data.


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Noidnadroj said:
So you have Pendles 2023 rated higher than Martin’s 2023 … Martin in AA squad and Pendles not. 47 coach’s votes to 31. 8 B’low votes to 6. 5th in B&F to 2nd. Less disposals AND way less goals. And if you’ve done that because of the finals and the flag then no worries, Martin’s 2017/19/20 immediately go top-3.

But putting Pendles 2023 above Martin’s 2014 is even funnier:

Disposals:
Martin :25.4
Pendles : 22.8

Goals:
Martin : 1.2
Pendles : 0.4

I50’s:
Martin : 3.8
Pendles : 3.6

R50’s:
Martin : 1.9
Pendles : 1.1

Tackles:
Pendles 4.3
Martin : 2.5

GA’s:
Martin: 0.8
Pendles: 0.7

Clearances:
Pendles: 4.2
Martin 2.6

SI’s:
Martin: 7.0
Pendles: 5.9

CP’s:
Martin: 8.1
Pendles: 7.7

Coaches:
Martin: 45
Pendles: 31

Games polled votes:
Martin : 10
Pendles: 7

Brownlow:
Martin: 13
Pendles: 6

Brownlow games polled:
Martin: 8
Pendles: 3

AA squad?:
Martin: Yes
Pendles: No

B&F:
Martin: 3rd
Pendles: 5th

Unless of course Pendlebury’s last quarter has skyrocketed him up 8 x places? In which case you are going against everything you’ve ever trumpeted in this thread about how single games or patches of games influence the rating of a player. You’ve been highly critical of that previously…

Fadgeratings continue to provide an unbiased and balanced summary…. So long as we ignore anything resembling the data.
Click to expand...
I clearly explained my rationale, though didn't expect the deluded Dusty fanbois to understand or agree with it.

Also, I'm not sure how much higher Martin's 2017 can be than the #1 position I previously had it in, and the finals performances in 2019 and 2020 did elevate his performances significantly compared to where his efforts would be ranked if my assessment was based solely on home and away.

All data has been considered, and it is what it is. I can't be more transparent than I have been.

On your complaint about Martin 2014 v. Pendlebury 2023, can you please highlight how Martin performed in finals in that year?
 
Last edited:
Fadge said:
I clearly explained my rationale, though didn't expect the deluded Dusty fanbois to understand or agree with it.
Click to expand...

My stats comparison was Martin 2014 v Pendles 2023:

Umpires: Martin
Coaches: Martin
AA selectors: Martin
Stats: Martin
B&F finish: Martin

Fadgeratings: Pendles

And if you are rating Pendles a lot higher thanks to one great quarter, then when in Richmond’s 3 x flag campaigns and 33 x wins to close out each season Martin gets 213 coaches votes, 3 x Ayres awards and 3 x NS medals, how are 2017/19/20 not top-3?


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Noidnadroj said:
My stats comparison was Martin 2014 v Pendles 2023:

Umpires: Martin
Coaches: Martin
AA selectors: Martin
Stats: Martin
B&F finish: Martin

Fadgeratings: Pendles

And if you are rating Pendles a lot higher thanks to one great quarter, then when in Richmond’s 3 x flag campaigns and 33 x wins to close out each season Martin gets 213 coaches votes, 3 x Ayres awards and 3 x NS medals, how are 2017/19/20 not top-3?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Click to expand...
Oh yes. Binary.

What percentage of votes did Martin finish behind the Richmond best and fairest winner in 2014? Did he finish within 6% of the winner, in a non premiership year?

Edit: 9% behind the winner Cotchin, and 6% behind the runner-up Ellis (LOL).
 

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Fadge said:
Oh yes. Binary.

What percentage of votes did Martin finish behind the Richmond best and fairest winner in 2014? Did he finish within 6% of the winner, in a non premiership year?

Edit: 9% behind the winner Cotchin, and 6% behind the runner-up Ellis (LOL).
Click to expand...

What about umpires, coaches votes, stats and AA selection?

I know you’re getting desperate when you zero in on margins in a B&F to justify the superior season as your only ‘data’ in your favour.

It’s actually hilarious… spend years telling Richmond supporters how much we overrate Martin thanks to his finals exploits … but now elevate Pendle’s entire season on a single quarter in a final series that netted 2 x coaches votes.

Pendles had a solid year averaging 22 touches, 0.4 goals, 4.2 clearances and 5.9 SI’s a game. With 6 x Brownlow votes and 31 coaches votes. That’s solid and impressive for a 35yo. A good solid season with a great last 30-minutes.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Noidnadroj said:
What about umpires, coaches votes, stats and AA selection?

I know you’re getting desperate when you zero in on margins in a B&F to justify the superior season as your only ‘data’ in your favour.

It’s actually hilarious… spend years telling Richmond supporters how much we overrate Martin thanks to his finals exploits … but now elevate Pendle’s entire season on a single quarter in a final series that netted 2 x coaches votes.

Pendles had a solid year averaging 22 touches, 0.4 goals, 4.2 clearances and 5.9 SI’s a game. With 6 x Brownlow votes and 31 coaches votes. That’s solid and impressive for a 35yo. A good solid season with a great last 30-minutes.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Click to expand...
He played in all but one game - 25 of them in total. Collingwood won 11 games by 3 goals or less; 8 of those by 8 points or less (bolded for the ones Pendlebury played in). Their season was a close run thing dependent on their midfielders bringing their best. Pendlebury played in 10 of those close victories and played well in almost all of them.

vs Richmond-24 disposals, 1 goal, 2 goal assists, 9 SIs, 4 clearances
vs St Kilda-23 disposals, 6 SIs, 5 clearances, 11 CPs
vs Essendon-21 disposals, 1 goal, 8 SIs, 10 CPs
vs Adelaide-24 disposals, 5 SIs, 7 i50s
vs Bulldogs-21 disposals, 1 goal assist, 3 SIs
vs PA-28 disposals, 1 goal assist, 3 SIs, 6 clearances, 4 i50s, 3 r50s
vs Geelong-21 disposals, 1 goal, 7 SIs, 7 tackles, 5 clearances, 10 CPs
vs Melbourne-15 disposals, 8 CPs, 3 SIs, 4 clearances, 4 tackles
vs GWS-25 disposals, 1 goal assist, 5 SIs, 9 CPs, 6 i50s, 3 r50s
vs Brisbane-24 disposals, 1 goal, 7 SIs, 9 CPs, 6 clearances, 4 i50s

It's plausible that without Pendlebury performing well above expected for a 35 year old, Collingwood lose 8 of those games. He was pretty clutch all season in setting it up and bringing it home. Martin had a memorable patch late when Richmond's season was hanging by a thread, with the exclamation mark once it was declared dead.
 
Noidnadroj said:
What about umpires, coaches votes, stats and AA selection?

I know you’re getting desperate when you zero in on margins in a B&F to justify the superior season as your only ‘data’ in your favour.

It’s actually hilarious… spend years telling Richmond supporters how much we overrate Martin thanks to his finals exploits … but now elevate Pendle’s entire season on a single quarter in a final series that netted 2 x coaches votes.

Pendles had a solid year averaging 22 touches, 0.4 goals, 4.2 clearances and 5.9 SI’s a game. With 6 x Brownlow votes and 31 coaches votes. That’s solid and impressive for a 35yo. A good solid season with a great last 30-minutes.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Click to expand...

How about the binary on again off again button Fadge seems to possess? Everything is too binary until we get to sorting out who is the best Premier. Then it just goes by wins and losses, margins and percentage play no part with Fadge.

So it is really tough to work out whether Fadge is binary or maybe non-binary. :)
 
Mr Meow said:
He played in all but one game - 25 of them in total. Collingwood won 11 games by 3 goals or less; 8 of those by 8 points or less (bolded for the ones Pendlebury played in). Their season was a close run thing dependent on their midfielders bringing their best. Pendlebury played in 10 of those close victories and played well in almost all of them.

vs Richmond-24 disposals, 1 goal, 2 goal assists, 9 SIs, 4 clearances
vs St Kilda-23 disposals, 6 SIs, 5 clearances, 11 CPs
vs Essendon-21 disposals, 1 goal, 8 SIs, 10 CPs
vs Adelaide-24 disposals, 5 SIs, 7 i50s
vs Bulldogs-21 disposals, 1 goal assist, 3 SIs
vs PA-28 disposals, 1 goal assist, 3 SIs, 6 clearances, 4 i50s, 3 r50s
vs Geelong-21 disposals, 1 goal, 7 SIs, 7 tackles, 5 clearances, 10 CPs
vs Melbourne-15 disposals, 8 CPs, 3 SIs, 4 clearances, 4 tackles
vs GWS-25 disposals, 1 goal assist, 5 SIs, 9 CPs, 6 i50s, 3 r50s
vs Brisbane-24 disposals, 1 goal, 7 SIs, 9 CPs, 6 clearances, 4 i50s

It's plausible that without Pendlebury performing well above expected for a 35 year old, Collingwood lose 8 of those games. He was pretty clutch all season in setting it up and bringing it home. Martin had a memorable patch late when Richmond's season was hanging by a thread, with the exclamation mark once it was declared dead.
Click to expand...

6 Brownlow votes and 31 coaches votes in the top team. A solid season.


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Noidnadroj said:
6 Brownlow votes and 31 coaches votes in the top team. A solid season.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Click to expand...
In close games for the premier decided on fine margins, those are a very good collection of games - and 10 is a fair number of them. So he didn't torch North Melbourne, West Coast, Freo and GWS (first time, when they got thrashed and were crap).

The biggest one of all: take Pendlebury out and Collingwood don't win the 2023 flag. Take Martin out and Richmond finish 15th/16th instead of 13th.
 
I also love the conclusion that Pendlebury only played 30 minutes of the finals series.

These guys need to start watching footy beyond August even though their team's season is already done and dusted by that time...
 
Fadge trying to fit Pendlebury's finals record to Dusty's:

giphy.gif
 
Mr Meow said:
In close games for the premier decided on fine margins, those are a very good collection of games - and 10 is a fair number of them. So he didn't torch North Melbourne, West Coast, Freo and GWS (first time, when they got thrashed and were crap).

The biggest one of all: take Pendlebury out and Collingwood don't win the 2023 flag. Take Martin out and Richmond finish 15th/16th instead of 13th.
Click to expand...

6 Brownlow votes and 31 coaches votes playing full time mid in a top team. 2 coaches votes in the final series. Solid.


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Its impossible to judge, and what would it matter anyway?

Martin has 3 Norms, 3 flags and a Brownlow (FFS!!) Pendles has 1 Norm, 2 flags and probably stiff not to have a Brownlow. Also has an almost unparalleled level of consistency across 383 games.

Both have made a significant contribution to their team's success. Both will be Legends in the hall of fame.
 
Noidnadroj said:
6 Brownlow votes and 31 coaches votes playing full time mid in a top team. 2 coaches votes in the final series. Solid.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Click to expand...

Don't forget Fadge says Scott is a great leader.

Except when he is captain, then he is the 3rd most successful of Collingwood's last 3 captains. One hell of a captain when he isn't captain though. :tearsofjoy:
 
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