List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2020

[sr36]

I think Thomas played a bit higher up the field this year SR and I never really got a handle on what Brown’s role was to be honest. Stevo out, Elliott coming back, Cox and De Goey out late and WHE unable to take a mark inside 50 hurt us and affected Thomas’ input as well. As you’ve mentioned before our system hurt us as well.
Praying for some continuity and a bit more attack next year which might suit a Keays type.

I want a Brown, Varcoe or Thomas type to play as a Brown, Varcoe or Thomas type - small forwards and not defensive wings. We might need to bring in a new one, but I actually think they're all fine, but the issue is they play too high in the defensive zone and thus don't get forward enough to be at the fall of the ball. Thus we don't get our hands on balls hitting the ground up forward nor do we apply enough pressure to the opposition, because we're outnumbered. I don't think a change in personnel will change this, unless there is also a change in defensive structure.

 

[Scodog10]

It's just a fact of most KPF's in general. They "generally" take longer then mids to impact regularly and find consistency.

WC Josh Kennedy was considered an overweight spud at Carlton eventually after 4-5 or so years in the system became an elite tall who went on to be a multi coleman winner. There are a lot of similar KPF stories many look at a 5-10 year KPF and forget where that player was at in years 1-3.

Buddy, Lockett, Hogan etc were exceptions not the norm.

I wouldn’t disagree with that I’m just talking about a rubbish team impacting a developing player.

I like Keays BTW. He’s the only DFA I would look at. It won’t happen, but I would sign him ahead of Varcoe.

 

[jimmy35]

But if Sier comes good, the soup will be too thick to add croutons.

So you’re saying the Bear isn’t the sharpest bear at the Woods?

 

[No SPIN]

Keane, Tohill, Wilson are speculative picks are best. Expecting them to to become AFL quality or AFL standard is setting your expectations way too high. They are rookie picks and athletes from another sport. Expectations should be very low.

I actually think we are carrying too many of these project type players. One or two is managable but four project players. Too much unnecessary risk and a consequence of a flawed draft and trade strategy for the past 5 years. By ignoring drafting key position players within the first three rounds leaves you scrambling to trying to fill the positions using rookie pick whereby the chance of becoming an regular AFL player is a longshot at best.

Wilson played representative football at U16 before switching to basketball.

 

[Nuwanda]

Walker I don't consider unathletic. I'll agree in so much as he's not agile or doing a great deal at ground level. And at 197cm, 100kg+ that's going to be the case for many unless you're talking about Buddy. He's a decent leaper and has the closing speed/straightline speed. So I'm not seeing that as problematic.

Comparisons to Madgen I consider harsh and unreasonable on Walker.

Just like Liam Jones who I was speaking about in recent year as a quality key defender, Walker is another who has made that transition and also is effective in defence.



Crisp I definitely feel needs to stay in defence. Without him there isn't enough drive.

Sier and Wills need to keep improving. Collingwood's midfield looks a lot better on paper than in reality. Pendlebury/Sidebottom/Beams have regressed drastically. Treloar is excellent other than being a poor kick. Adams is very good but has had injuries. Keays I'd have as a part of a rotation, but with time split between there and forward.



If talking about Keays, that can still be pretty easily done. As per my earlier suggestion, play Keays mostly across half-forward, have him rolling high up the ground to let that continue.

WHE for me is on that edge of selection also. I don't love him either. Can mark, has speed, has the endurance and was hitting the scoreboard fine. He just doesn't find enough of it and can't win his own ball.

Sam Lowson would be that crumber/front and centre guy who can bring the forward pressure. He's worth selecting late. Otherwise a Jeff Garlett if you want someone who can roll high up the ground, bring the speed, pressure, crumbing can do that too.

I think that’s a little harsh on Pendlebury. He may have had a couple of ineffective games this year but still played as one of the best and influential midfielders in the competition. ‘Regressed drastically’???

 

[Knightmare]

I think that’s a little harsh on Pendlebury. He may have had a couple of ineffective games this year but still played as one of the best and influential midfielders in the competition. ‘Regressed drastically’???

Pendlebury hasn't declined as badly as Sidebottom this year or Beams, with Pendlebury's it's more he hasn't been nearly prime Pendlebury for a number of years now - and I mean that from the perspective he's no longer in the best midfielders/brownlow conversation. He's more fringe All-Australian where it's a question these last probably three years should he/shouldn't he be selected.

 

[Jen2310]

I think that’s a little harsh on Pendlebury. He may have had a couple of ineffective games this year but still played as one of the best and influential midfielders in the competition. ‘Regressed drastically’???

I thought Pendles had a great year. Especially for someone his age.

In terms of Beams, that was because of the injuries he was carrying.

 

[Albert Parker]

I think that’s a little harsh on Pendlebury. He may have had a couple of ineffective games this year but still played as one of the best and influential midfielders in the competition. ‘Regressed drastically’???

Regressed drastically to reclaim a spot in the All Australian team after having a debilitating back injury carried through 2018?????
Sidebottom won a Copeland in 2018 in a GF year, but was quieter this year.
Beams wasn't what he was previously in 2019 but had been top 10 in the Brownlow consistently prior. It's pretty clear that at no time was he fully fit this season.
It may prove correct to say that we've seen their best football, but these are high quality players and I'd caution on writing them off too quickly.

Yet, Knightmare shows a lot more respect to delisted players, who were only every fringe inclusions in their teams, from other clubs. I don't get it.

 

[CFC2010]

Pendlebury hasn't declined as badly as Sidebottom this year or Beams, with Pendlebury's it's more he hasn't been nearly prime Pendlebury for a number of years now - and I mean that from the perspective he's no longer in the best midfielders/brownlow conversation. He's more fringe All-Australian where it's a question these last probably three years should he/shouldn't he be selected.

Yet you’re going to say Lyons had a brilliant season.......go figure.

It blows my mind how many people talk down Pendles consistency and ability over his 303 games.

 

[TradeDraft]

Yet you’re going to say Lyons had a brilliant season.......go figure.

It blows my mind how many people talk down Pendles consistency and ability over his 303 games.

Because he is not the Player he was in his Prime

 

[Apex36]

Regressed drastically to reclaim a spot in the All Australian team after having a debilitating back injury carried through 2018?????
Sidebottom won a Copeland in 2018 in a GF year, but was quieter this year.
Beams wasn't what he was previously in 2019 but had been top 10 in the Brownlow consistently prior. It's pretty clear that at no time was he fully fit this season.
It may prove correct to say that we've seen their best football, but these are high quality players and I'd caution on writing them off too quickly.

Yet, Knightmare shows a lot more respect to delisted players, who were only every fringe inclusions in their teams, from other clubs. I don't get it.

The way he talks about Keays you’d think the kid should be in hot demand, not someone who we could have grabbed for pick 100 if we’d wanted...

 

[sr36]

Regressed drastically to reclaim a spot in the All Australian team after having a debilitating back injury carried through 2018?????
Sidebottom won a Copeland in 2018 in a GF year, but was quieter this year.
Beams wasn't what he was previously in 2019 but had been top 10 in the Brownlow consistently prior. It's pretty clear that at no time was he fully fit this season.
It may prove correct to say that we've seen their best football, but these are high quality players and I'd caution on writing them off too quickly.

Yet, Knightmare shows a lot more respect to delisted players, who were only every fringe inclusions in their teams, from other clubs. I don't get it.

Due to events after 2010, KMs got a theory that our boys will continue to decline quicker than those at other clubs. Hes holding onto that theory.

Pendles was All Australian in the year he notched 300 games. Has there been a 300 gamer in the AA team before? I don't think Sidebottom has even regressed. I think he's at his peak, much more damaging than he was a few years ago, but he now has more quiet days because he often gets tagged which he never used to and he doesn't have the skillset to shake a good tagger with endurance.

 

[Bucks2019]

Better than Gaz? Equal with Lethal? Pendles in rare air

Collingwood skipper Scott Pendlebury's 11th top-three finish in the B&F has him in illustrious company

www.afl.com.au

If Pendles is just an average midfielder making up the numbers then we are in dire straits. Clearly still our best midfielder, stats in this article say he is still elite. This year he was either being tagged or taking the opposition best mid at stoppages and doing a bloody good job at it.

Truly amazing how much criticm elite players get, the other amusing one is the whipping boys, Aish took over from Blair but now he's gone we'll miss him so much. Just an average footballer, don't think we'll miss him, still didn't deserve the negative comments he received.

Anyway getting back to Pendles, I have been around for awhile Daicos was the best player I have seen, Pendles I rate second. Looking forward to another consistent 2020. It's clear because he isn't explosive or if he doesn't get it 35 times he's had a bad one. I'd have Pendles 25 versus Dangerfields 35 every day of the week. Fantastic player is Dangerfield but his disposal is average. But because danger is explosive he is talked about as the best.

In closing Pendles is a gun.

 

[Jen2310]

Because he is not the Player he was in his Prime

Nor should he be. Not many are at 31


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Knightmare]

Yet you’re going to say Lyons had a brilliant season.......go figure.

It blows my mind how many people talk down Pendles consistency and ability over his 303 games.

Lyons absolutely had a terrific season, it's his third successive really strong season and some would argue his best yet.

Pendlebury remains better than Lyons. But unlike Lyons, Pendlebury is on the downside of his career. And when you're 31 and have played more than 300 games, that's how the story goes.

Expectations and analysis of a player is based on past performance. Are they improving? Declining? Staying about the same?

There is also the layer when talking about players to add to the list, what is the cost both in what you give up and what you pay.

Beams obviously was a ridiculous decision last year giving up x2 first round picks for someone of his age, with his poor durability and persistent ongoing mental health battles. Lyons as a contrast you look at in the context of he could have been had without giving up any assets to acquire. When they're similar standard players at this age/stage of their careers, and this is what I was saying last year, it should be a no brainer who is the better recruiting decision.

I'm not traditionally a fan of delisted players. If it's someone who can slot straight into a best 22. That's when I'm interested. And in recent years both in the forms of veterans and established players, there have been more cut than should be the case. Keays is a rare exception this year where I'm just liking his talent and feeling he has had a rough go of it for Brisbane with too few senior opportunities to get his chance to establish himself as the player he has the game and work ethic to become.

 

[sr36]

The way he talks about Keays you’d think the kid should be in hot demand, not someone who we could have grabbed for pick 100 if we’d wanted...

He may be right though. He nailed the call on the delisted Lyons lasy year. Having said that, it's very rare for a delisted guy to make a difference.

 

[jonbe54]

Only only a rookie contract though.

That's a LIBERAL interpretation.

 

[jonbe54]

Knighter is a stats man through and through - and in general that will flow through to most players as being a reliable guide.

Stats don't help with the intangibles however.

Where is the stat for lifting a team to victory?

What numbers indicate the consistent ability to inspire your team mates to herioics they shouldn't - by all known stats - be capable of?

There are none.

We need look no further than our past two premiership captains.

Tony Shaw and Nick Maxwell.

Both players scorned as 3rd raters by all the 'experts'.

Both players lived and breathed Collingwood and inspired their teams to the ultimate prize.

I respect Knighters peerless knowlege and thorough research but there are lies, damn lies and . . . statistics.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Knighter is a stats man through and through - and in general that will flow through to most players as being a reliable guide.

Stats don't help with the intangibles however.

Where is the stat for lifting a team to victory?

What numbers indicate the consistent ability to inspire your team mates to herioics they shouldn't - by all known stats - be capable of?

There are none.

We need look no further than our past two premiership captains.

Tony Shaw and Nick Maxwell.

Both players scorned as 3rd raters by all the 'experts'.

Both players lived and breathed Collingwood and inspired their teams to the ultimate prize.

I respect Knighters peerless knowlege and thorough research but there are lies, damn lies and . . . statistics.

And Tony Shaw far superior as a player

 

[jonbe54]

And Tony Shaw far superior as a player

Tony was grossly underrated.

 

[Albert Parker]

Knightmare does good very research, clearly understands football and is articulate. He is a favoured poster of mine around here.
His call on Lyons was a very good one, reflecting that knowledge.

His call on 'drastic decline' on Pendlebury and Sidebottom and possibly Beams is a poor choice of phrase in my opinion.
Pendlebury clearly had a better season in 2019 than 2018. He came second in the Copeland and made All Australian. He also sacrificed himself for the team in the roles that he played this season. It's simply erroneous to argue that he's in drastic decline.
I also think that one season is too early to make a call on a player. It wasn't until Pendlebury disclosed his back problems that people realised why his output had dropped off so much. I had expected that it was due to his hospitalisation last season that his finals performances were down.
As for statistics, Pendlebury had more kicks on average this season (14.4 per game) than any other season of the past 7 seasons (bar 2015).
When he's kicking the ball, he's usually damaging. It just doesn't hold that he is in drastic decline.
He had >27 disposals per game in 2019 and had not averaged over 30 disposals in any single season of football that he has played, so in 2019 he was within 10% of his average disposals per game of any season that he has played. It's not in any way justifiable to declare that he's in drastic decline.

Steele made All Australian last season and shared the Copeland. It was his single best season.
His output was down this season versus last and more work was probably put into him by other teams because of his success in 2018.
He did still average more disposals than his 2016 and 2013 seasons for instance. Again, it's hardly evidence of a drastic decline. But no doubt a weaker season than previous. Was there a contributing reason for this that we were unaware?

I don't see Knightmare admit to being wrong too often and when he does he typically laments second guessing himself and blaming others for talking him out of his original thought process. It takes maturity to admit when you are wrong. This 'drastic decline' call on Pendles is such a time in my opinion.

 

[loki04]

Knightmare does good very research, clearly understands football and is articulate. He is a favoured poster of mine around here.
His call on Lyons was a very good one, reflecting that knowledge.

His call on 'drastic decline' on Pendlebury and Sidebottom and possibly Beams is a poor choice of phrase in my opinion.
Pendlebury clearly had a better season in 2019 than 2018. He came second in the Copeland and made All Australian. He also sacrificed himself for the team in the roles that he played this season. It's simply erroneous to argue that he's in drastic decline.
I also think that one season is too early to make a call on a player. It wasn't until Pendlebury disclosed his back problems that people realised why his output had dropped off so much. I had expected that it was due to his hospitalisation last season that his finals performances were down.
As for statistics, Pendlebury had more kicks on average this season (14.4 per game) than any other season of the past 7 seasons (bar 2015).
When he's kicking the ball, he's usually damaging. It just doesn't hold that he is in drastic decline.
He had >27 disposals per game in 2019 and had not averaged over 30 disposals in any single season of football that he has played, so in 2019 he was within 10% of his average disposals per game of any season that he has played. It's not in any way justifiable to declare that he's in drastic decline.

Steele made All Australian last season and shared the Copeland. It was his single best season.
His output was down this season versus last and more work was probably put into him by other teams because of his success in 2018.
He did still average more disposals than his 2016 and 2013 seasons for instance. Again, it's hardly evidence of a drastic decline. But no doubt a weaker season than previous. Was there a contributing reason for this that we were unaware?

I don't see Knightmare admit to being wrong too often and when he does he typically laments second guessing himself and blaming others for talking him out of his original thought process. It takes maturity to admit when you are wrong. This 'drastic decline' call on Pendles is such a time in my opinion.

How did you find pendles impact through the mid year? or vs teams who came after the team physically?


Whilst I think "drastic decline" is poor phrasing I don't agree that he had his best season in 7 years despite what the stats say. Overall a very good season but imo I didnt think he did enough to warrant AA and showed some "ageing" signs within parts of the season.
His impact in games was lesser then his younger days in many games through the year. He was also uncharacteristically fumbly in a few "hot" games which as we know is not like him, there was a flat patch in our run of losses which had people asking whether father time had caught up with him before he and subsequently the team came back into form. I think he had a purple patch end to the season and also started well which stuck in peoples minds.

I still think he has a lot to offer and is still one of our best, top 30 afl even, but he also at stages last season shown some signs of decline. Maybe KM is predicting more of those signs even if his overall performance is still of high quality due to age factor playing its role.

 

[PieWithHorse]

I don’t really understand the friction to getting a guy like Walker in. Every year competition for KPP spots seem to fall to whoever we can get on the park. I’d also prefer Walker to Jenkins in terms of list needs.

Knightmare, how pleased would you be if we managed to get:

Gould - would probably need to trade next years 1st to get into the top 15
Riccardi
Lowson
Walker

 

[nahnah]

Whatever helps us experiment with Moore up forward I am on board with

 

[Nuwanda]

Pendlebury hasn't declined as badly as Sidebottom this year or Beams, with Pendlebury's it's more he hasn't been nearly prime Pendlebury for a number of years now - and I mean that from the perspective he's no longer in the best midfielders/brownlow conversation. He's more fringe All-Australian where it's a question these last probably three years should he/shouldn't he be selected.

I’m still unconvinced. He has 14-16 votes each year for the past 6 years in the Brownlow (including 2017 where he missed the last 6 games). Always in AA (and 2019 AA) talk even if it’s fringe there are many top midfielders out there.
Apart from 2018, Sidebottom has always been a poor Brownlow vote getter. I think Sidey has been crucified for 1 average year (still with 25 disposals a game). He was runner up in the Brownlow last year! I’m unsure what we expect from Sidey. Isn’t he just a winger who has great stamina he goes all day just running up and down the wing?
Personally, I think Treloar is the weakest in that midfield. He has lost his explosiveness and is ineffective with his possessions. I’m not sure what his role is now and whether it’s ‘balanced’ with him in there. Maybe if Sier can get back into it it releases Treloar.

Again, I think the term ‘regressed significantly’ in one season is overly dramatic.