Society/Culture Tucker Carlson - Fired from Fox. Sacked. Terminated. Given the heave-ho.

[Sweet Jesus]

Red and Blue in the states are 2 sides of the same coin

Nonsense. What does that even mean?

there is an illusion of choice... a mere dog and pony show put on to distract and divide the masses into competing tribes so the power elite of politics/finance/business/military industrial complex can line their own pockets, Obama was supposed to be hope and change, I was on board, nothing happened of any substance, it was business as usual, Biden a 50+ year career politician will not change anything. The only thing that changes is the peripheral sideshow, what goes on behind the scenes stays the same.

Politics all over the world on both sides but particularly the USA is infested with nepotisim, corruption, bribery and narcissism.

These are potted talking points designed to sound cynical and edgy but they make no specific sense and suggest zero understanding of the differences in terms of policy, governance and ideology.

 

[M Malice]

Nonsense. What does that even mean?

These are potted talking points designed to sound cynical and edgy but they make no specific sense and suggest zero understanding of the differences in terms of policy, governance and ideology.

Just because they're talking points and cynical doesn't make it false, you are a condescending wanna be online philosopher, continue in the delusion you are in.

 

[Saint]

Just because they're talking points and cynical doesn't make it false, you are a condescending wanna be online philosopher, continue in the delusion you are in.

You're doing exactly what the conservative media wants you to do, which is think that all politicians are corrupt or captured by special interests and basically the same. Which simply isn't true.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Just because they're talking points and cynical doesn't make it false

Sure. The fact they're talking points designed to sound cynical simply makes them dumb. The fact they're obviously false is what makes them false.

You've adopted this chin-stroking posture that it's all a pantomime and you see through it all because you're super switched on and cynical and don't buy any of it. That's obviously bullshit but, setting that aside, who do you think this worldview benefits? It benefits the people who have real power, particularly corrupt power, who are quite happy for the public to be so disengaged and disillusioned that they no longer see any difference within the ruling class, no difference between good governance and bad governance. That makes it much easier for power to be wielded in a corrupt fashion because well, what difference does it make if they're all the same? This is in fact a tenet of Kremlin propaganda designed to desensitise the Russian public to its excesses and malfeasance. All politicians are corrupt, they say, so what difference does it make if Putin stays in charge forever?

So you think you're calling out "the dog and pony show" because "hey man, it's all the same system - it's all two sides of the same coin". That might sound edgy in the first year of university but that worldview, if it becomes entrenched, actually makes you a simp for the worst aspects of the status quo.

you are a condescending wanna be online philosopher, continue in the delusion you are in.

Where's the philosophy? Show me.

But you're absolutely right about the condescension.

On one hand, you've got Bernie Sanders who wants to provide a free college education for all Americans. On the other hand, you've got Donald Trump, whose sole objective appeared to be self-preservation, even if that meant subverting the DoJ and DoD to see if overturning the result of an election was possible.

But nah man, they're all the same! It's all the system!

If this is your "analysis", designed to claim some kind of countercultural cool points, you're damn right I'm condescending.

Go and educate yourself so you don't have to rely on dumbshit talking points to appear like you know something.

 

[M Malice]

You're doing exactly what the conservative media wants you to do, which is think that all politicians are corrupt or captured by special interests and basically the same. Which simply isn't true.

Not all but in the USA where they have to beg and do favours for their benefactors via lobbyists the large majority definitely are bought and owned... IMO.

Sure. The fact they're talking points designed to sound cynical simply makes them dumb. The fact they're obviously false is what makes them false.

You've adopted this chin-stroking posture that it's all a pantomime and you see through it all because you're super switched on and cynical and don't buy any of it. That's obviously bullshit but, setting that aside, who do you think this worldview benefits? It benefits the people who have real power, particularly corrupt power, who are quite happy for the public to be so disengaged and disillusioned that they no longer see any difference within the ruling class, no difference between good governance and bad governance. That makes it much easier for power to be wielded in a corrupt fashion because well, what difference does it make if they're all the same? This is in fact a tenet of Kremlin propaganda designed to desensitise the Russian public to its excesses and malfeasance. All politicians are corrupt, they say, so what difference does it make if Putin stays in charge forever?

So you think you're calling out "the dog and pony show" because "hey man, it's all the same system - it's all two sides of the same coin". That might sound edgy in the first year of university but that worldview, if it becomes entrenched, actually makes you a simp for the worst aspects of the status quo.

Where's the philosophy? Show me.

But you're absolutely right about the condescension.

I'm far from my first year out of University in fact I never went, I'm 61 retired have been an employee and an employer, I'm forming my opinion via life experience and reading. Sure there are degrees along the scale of red and blue politics but the difference in the grand scheme of global decisions is minimal... IMO, do you really think dementia Joe or buffoon Trump is/was the leader of the free world? .... come on man give me a break man and grab a pussy.

Carry on, I'm back to the Lions board to discuss something of significance to me.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm far from my first year out of University in fact I never went, I'm 61 retired have been an employee and an employer, I'm forming my opinion via life experience and reading. Sure there are degrees along the scale of red and blue politics but the difference in the grand scheme of global decisions is minimal...

You don't appear to know anything about politics.

Do you think Al Gore would have invaded Iraq in 2003?

IMO, do you really think dementia Joe or buffoon Trump is/was the leader of the free world? .... come on man give me a break man and grab a pussy.

What does "leader of the free world" mean?

It's like you prefer to deal exclusively in generalities to conceal the fact you have zero grasp of the details.

 

[Frank Bunn]

You can still be a white supremacist without exclusively interviewing other white supremacists. Isn't that obvious?

Whether Carlson is in fact a white supremacist is open for the debate. I'd say he leans into it - whether he actually subscribes to it, I'm not sure. But your argument that "he can't be a white supremacist because he has people on his show who aren't white supremacists" - that's nonsense.

Ben Shapiro is a religious conservative. But OMG he had Russell Brand on his show so he can't be!

Also, don't downplay the eccentricity of Naomi Wolff's views simply because it suits your argument.

So you're telling me that Carlson's cunning plan to promote white supremacy is to fill his show with smart black people?

 

[Chief]

Whether Carlson is in fact a white supremacist is open for the debate. I'd say he leans into it - whether he actually subscribes to it, I'm not sure.

He's been very consistent since before he had any sort of real media success.

I don't think he'd be there for the lynchings, but he'd cover them favourably.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Sure, liberal elites have become removed from the economic concerns of the working class and have instead leaned into cultural issues, just as the RW leans into its own set of cultural issues. But that doesn't account for all of the "modern left". That's nonsense.

That aside, who do you consider to be "the left"?

Elizabeth Warren has been talking about breaking up big tech like Amazon, Google and Facebook for ages. Is she not "the left"?

I would say Sanders is left economically but Warren isn't. Elizabeth Warren did not endorse Sanders in 2020.

She's on the same page as Carlson on economic measures. They both speak out against corporations exploiting Washington to further their own interests at the expense of ordinary people. The Democrats have facilitated this crony capitalism just as much as the Republicans.



I agree what I said doesn't characterise all the modern left but look at what has happened when push comes to shove. It was Wall St big money donors that pressured Joe Biden to not choose Warren as his running mate. It was also Wall Street billionaires also chipped in a lot of money to help corporate friendly Democrat Senate candidates defeat progressive primary challengers.

 

[Gough]

He's been very consistent since before he had any sort of real media success.

I don't think he'd be there for the lynchings, but he'd cover them favourably.

He has to, otherwise there's no reason to watch him. People's prejudices aren't going to be reinforced by him interviewing Spike Lee or reviewing Broadway musicals.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Notoriously left wing Reddit have had their news sub reddits flooded with sop stories about the Taliban allegedly retaking Afghanistan lately. Just like how Trump wishing to remove troops from Syria was gonna cause “ethnic cleansing of the Kurds” and a “resurgence of ISIS”

Anyone who doesn’t believe that they have only the illusion of choice there is a goose. Ending forever wars = bad! Evil! War is good!

 

[Frank Bunn]

Do you think Biden is particularly woke?

To be honest I have no idea what he really thinks. It's hard to tell if senior Democrats have changed their position on certain issues or they don't actually believe what they say.

Joe Biden in 2006

I voted unlike most Democrats — and some of you won’t like it — I voted for 700 miles of fence. People are driving across that border with tons, tons — hear me — tons of everything from byproducts for methamphetamine to cocaine to heroin. And it’s all coming up through corrupt Mexico.​

Joe Biden in 2020

Most contraband comes in through our legal ports of entry. There will not be another foot of wall constructed under my administration.​

Joe Biden in 2021

On Day One of my presidency, I kept my commitment and sent a comprehensive immigration bill to the United States Congress. … If you believe in a pathway to citizenship, pass it. Over 11 million undocumented folks, the vast majority of here overstaying visas.​

Which was actually a blatant lie. Of the 10.6 million total undocumented population living in the United States in 2018, about 5.7 million (54 percent) entered across the border, and 4.9 million (46 percent) entered with a temporary visa and overstayed.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

Bernie Sanders in 2007

If poverty is increasing and if wages are going down, I don’t know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are right now. On one hand, you have large multinationals trying to shut down plants in America, move to China, and on the other hand, you have the service industry bringing in low-wage workers from abroad. The result is the same: Middle class gets shrunken, and wages go down.​

Bernie Sanders in 2020




Hilary Clinton 2008

Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me. There's a pattern emerging here.​

Hilary Clinton 2016

you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables​

 

[Saint]

Joe Biden in 2021

On Day One of my presidency, I kept my commitment and sent a comprehensive immigration bill to the United States Congress. … If you believe in a pathway to citizenship, pass it. Over 11 million undocumented folks, the vast majority of here overstaying visas.
Which was actually a blatant lie. Of the 10.6 million total undocumented population living in the United States in 2018, about 5.7 million (54 percent) entered across the border, and 4.9 million (46 percent) entered with a temporary visa and overstayed.

So, according to your source which isn't quoted, it's out by 8%, so it's a blatant lie. It's not inconceivable that his data set is different to yours and possibly more accurate?

Are you also saying Bernie Sanders has been quiet in 2020 on the shrinking of the middle class and wage stagnation?

 

[Frank Bunn]

So, according to your source which isn't quoted, it's out by 8%, so it's a blatant lie. It's not inconceivable that his data set is different to yours and possibly more accurate?

The source is quoted directly underneath. Unless you are a subscriber to post modern mathematics 46% is not a "vast majority".

 

[Taylor]

I think it shows that when it comes to political issues in the USA there isn't fact or fiction or right and wrong, if the other side is factually correct about a problem the problem itself must be denied, even when presented with the data - the data is discounted. A new narrative truth is spoken about, then repeated, then becomes fact.

I am sure the political actors all know this game too because they will flip their positions and say what they need to say depending on who is listening, Hillary even admitted as much.

The only fools in the game are the voters getting sucked in, which I don't think is too many because a lot will vote along economic lines - whether they have a job, whether they are getting paid and that is difficult to fake, even if it is a by-product of both parties looking after their big business buddies first.

 

[Saint]

The source is quoted directly underneath. Unless you are a subscriber to post modern mathematics 46% is not a "vast majority".

"About 4.0 million of the 10.6 million who resided here in 2018 arrived in the 2010 to 2018 period. Of those, 2.6 million (66 percent) overstayed their temporary visas, and 1.3 million (34 percent) entered illegally across the border. In each year since 2010, about two-thirds of all arrivals have been visa overstays. Of the 10.6 million total undocumented population living in the United States in 2018, about 5.7 million (54 percent) entered across the border, and 4.9 million (46 percent) entered with a temporary visa and overstayed. "

Maybe he was talking about the newly arrived ones. It's not exactly a black-and-white thing, the "vast Majority" he might have been referring to might have been those who would be impacted by the Migration bill he'd passed.

I think if you said "Vast majority", most people would be thinking at least 70%, so I'm nto sure where the numbers have come from, he's obviously not quoting from the same place

 

[Frank Bunn]

For your reference, I've enjoyed listening to this guy recently...

Last Best Hope by George Packer review – shrewd analysis of America’s ruptures

George Packer finds the US caught in a ‘cold civil war’ between incompatible versions of the country after its ‘near-death experience’ with Donald Trump

www.theguardian.com

George Packer on How America Fractured

On today's Bulwark podcast, George Packer joins Charlie Sykes to discuss his new book Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal, and describes the four different Americas.

podcast.thebulwark.com

I read the Guardian article you posted. It didn't inspire me to listen to the podcasts. I think there are simpler explanations for the Trump, Nigel Farage and Pauline Hanson phenomenon. Where people's views are not represented by the mainstream they will turn to more fringe parties and individuals that do represent them.

It's been some time now since the left lost the economic argument after they failed to make the case for socialism. More recently they have figured that a better route to power would be to exploit identity politics - emphasising cultural, racial and gender differences. At the same time we have seen the Democrats facilitate globalisation, financialisation and mass immigration. The working class were the losers in all of that but the academic left have no interest in them. Trump stepped in to fill that void.

Also, the Coronavirus pandemic has seen greater authoritarian measures by Democrat run states. The losers are small businesses, whereas many of the big corporates have made substantial increases in profits. And increased government powers of course.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

So you're telling me that Carlson's cunning plan to promote white supremacy is to fill his show with smart black people?

You think it's impossible to lean into white supremacist tropes while also having black folks on the show occasionally?

Carlson isn't staging a KKK rally. But he does reinforce certain grievances that underpin white identity politics. Having Candace Owens show up sometimes doesn't preclude that.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

He's been very consistent since before he had any sort of real media success.

Actually he hasn't. He's been around for ages and has, I think, worked for every cable network at one time or another. He's the epitome of adapting to whatever an audience wants. That's why I say he leans into white supremacist tropes but I'm not sure he actually subscribes to all of it.

I don't think he'd be there for the lynchings, but he'd cover them favourably.

The real problem is the audience that would demand that.

 

[Frank Bunn]

You think it's impossible to lean into white supremacist tropes while also having black folks on the show occasionally?

Carlson isn't staging a KKK rally. But he does reinforce certain grievances that underpin white identity politics. Having Candace Owens show up sometimes doesn't preclude that.

It's an easy accusation to throw out. Have you actually watched his show? I reckon half his guests are black. I guess now you'll accuse him of overcompensating.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I would say Sanders is left economically but Warren isn't. Elizabeth Warren did not endorse Sanders in 2020.

Sorry, what?

Are you saying Warren isn't of "the left" because she didn't endorse Sanders?

What are you talking about? In what sense is Warren not LW on economic issues?

She's on the same page as Carlson on economic measures. They both speak out against corporations exploiting Washington to further their own interests at the expense of ordinary people.

You claimed the LW aren't talking about big tech monopolies. I pointed you to Warren doing so repeatedly. Your response is that she's not LW? That's nonsense.

The fact that Carlson agrees with Warren on certain aspects of Warren's economic proposals says more about Carlson's ideological flexibility and the nature of this emerging RW populism than it does about whether Warren is LW or not.

I think you're confused about what actually constitutes LW policies and RW policies.

The Democrats have facilitated this crony capitalism just as much as the Republicans.

Again, I pointed you to the specific case that has removed barriers to corporate funding of election campaigns. It's called Citizens United. It was brought by a conservative action group.

You respond to that in generalities about "crony capitalism". It's inadequate. What are you talking about specifically?

I agree what I said doesn't characterise all the modern left but look at what has happened when push comes to shove. It was Wall St big money donors that pressured Joe Biden to not choose Warren as his running mate.

But wait, I thought you said Warren isn't LW anyway? If that's the case, why would "Wall St big money donors" not want her to be VP?

That aside, I'd say your formulation is too simplistic. Any decision about Biden's running mate would have been first and foremost a political calculation about electability. It may sound cynical but given the events of 2020, I think having a smart, younger black lady on the ticket made a lot of sense from that POV.

It was also Wall Street billionaires also chipped in a lot of money to help corporate friendly Democrat Senate candidates defeat progressive primary challengers.

Yes, there are also billionaires who give money to establishment/centrist Democrats. What's your point?

If you want to get private money out of politics, I can assure you that proposal will get a more sympathetic hearing among Democrats that it would among Republicans.

That aside, this wasn't your initial argument.

You started out by saying: "The modern left have pretty much abandoned the working class. They are much more interested in gender equality, critical race theory and climate change than jobs, immigration, education, and basic law and order."

That's obviously nonsense. I've provided you with evidence to that effect. You have retreated to simply pointing out that the Democrats also have rich donors, which makes no point at all.

You also mentioned "abuses of the big tech monopolies" and "the corrupt relationships between corporations and government". And you claimed "the left isn't talking about this stuff". That is also demonstrably nonsense. I've provided you with evidence to that effect.

In light of the fact that several premises of your argument are clearly false or inaccurate, surely you pause to reconsider your claims? Or do you just plough on regardless and shift the goalposts to a smaller claim that you still think you can defend?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

To be honest I have no idea what he really thinks. It's hard to tell if senior Democrats have changed their position on certain issues or they don't actually believe what they say.

You don't need to read his mind. Look at his proposals.

You said the LW have abandoned the working class. I have directed you to examples of Biden addressing bread and butter economic issues.

Again, when your claims are directly contradicted by the evidence, you simply ignore it and shift sideways to a different set of claims. This is not an intellectually honest or organised way to operate.

Joe Biden in 2006

I voted unlike most Democrats — and some of you won’t like it — I voted for 700 miles of fence. People are driving across that border with tons, tons — hear me — tons of everything from byproducts for methamphetamine to cocaine to heroin. And it’s all coming up through corrupt Mexico.​

Joe Biden in 2020

Most contraband comes in through our legal ports of entry. There will not be another foot of wall constructed under my administration.​

Joe Biden in 2021

On Day One of my presidency, I kept my commitment and sent a comprehensive immigration bill to the United States Congress. … If you believe in a pathway to citizenship, pass it. Over 11 million undocumented folks, the vast majority of here overstaying visas.​

Which was actually a blatant lie. Of the 10.6 million total undocumented population living in the United States in 2018, about 5.7 million (54 percent) entered across the border, and 4.9 million (46 percent) entered with a temporary visa and overstayed.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

Bernie Sanders in 2007

If poverty is increasing and if wages are going down, I don’t know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are right now. On one hand, you have large multinationals trying to shut down plants in America, move to China, and on the other hand, you have the service industry bringing in low-wage workers from abroad. The result is the same: Middle class gets shrunken, and wages go down.​

Bernie Sanders in 2020




Hilary Clinton 2008

Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me. There's a pattern emerging here.​

Hilary Clinton 2016

you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables​

I'm not sure what point you think this makes?

 

[Frank Bunn]

In light of the fact that several premises of your argument are clearly false or inaccurate, surely you pause to reconsider your claims? Or do you just plough on regardless and shift the goalposts to a smaller claim that you still think you can defend?

If I'm honest US politics bores me. I'll see if I can muster the energy to defend what I said before. Or enlighten myself in your new profundity.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I read the Guardian article you posted. It didn't inspire me to listen to the podcasts. I think there are simpler explanations for the Trump, Nigel Farage and Pauline Hanson phenomenon.

If you value simplicity above all else, that would explain a lot about the positions you've taken in this thread.

Those links aren't about "explaining the Trump, Nigel Farage and Pauline Hanson phenomenon" - as though they're all the same thing?

The writer is simply analysing the dynamics shaping US politics, offering a shorthand for the way folks with different worldviews and ideologies are becoming increasingly atomised.

Where people's views are not represented by the mainstream they will turn to more fringe parties and individuals that do represent them.

I mean, that may be generally true but it's so broad that it makes no real point about the folks you've mentioned. And I hardly think Pauline Hanson is a strong example. She remains a fringe individual.

It's been some time now since the left lost the economic argument after they failed to make the case for socialism. More recently they have figured that a better route to power would be to exploit identity politics - emphasising cultural, racial and gender differences. At the same time we have seen the Democrats facilitate globalisation, financialisation and mass immigration. The working class were the losers in all of that but the academic left have no interest in them. Trump stepped in to fill that void.

Huh? All you do is make baseless assertions couched in sweeping generalities. It's nonsense. You can go line by line and this is all rubbish.

What is the Republican economic argument? Tax cuts for the 1 per cent and the rest of you can take your chances?

You keep circling back to your obsession with "identity politics" as though that's the only thing the Democrats are interested in talking about. It's nonsense. You've spent too much time watching Fox News. That aside, you don't think the RW has its own set of "identity politics"?

As for "globalisation and financialisation", you don't think Republicans were on board with that? Did your interest in US politics start in 2015 or something? You don't seem to understand anything before that? Even the respective positions on immigration are more complicated that you suggest.

In closing, you say "the academic left have no interest in the working class - Trump stepped in to fill that void". Yes, Trump offered populist rhetoric and railed against "the elites". And this certainly played well among white folks without college degrees in middle America. But what did he actually do to help the working class? Again, you offer no specifics, you simply make baseless assertions couched in generalities. In policy terms, the Democrats look after the working class far more than Trump ever did.

Also, the Coronavirus pandemic has seen greater authoritarian measures by Democrat run states. The losers are small businesses, whereas many of the big corporates have made substantial increases in profits. And increased government powers of course.

Shifting the goalposts even further now?

You realise Trump was president at the height of the pandemic? How do you get from that to blaming Democrats?

Can you make a single specific argument in support of your claims?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

It's an easy accusation to throw out. Have you actually watched his show?

Yes.

I reckon half his guests are black.

This makes no point.