Opinion Coach: James Hird

[Towno78]

2013 we stopped dead halfway through though. 2014 we performed much more consistently, that's what I meant.

Stopped dead, or were told they weren't playing finals and had nothing to play for?
2013 was hands down better than 2014.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

I'll see you guys next week. Same time, same bat channel.

 

[Kaiser Powser]

Wouldn't it have been 2013 that was good and 2014 bad then?

We played far better footy in 2013 than we did in 2014. In 2014 we were pretty mediocre, lost to the bottom two side, limped into the 8 and lost to an average side despite being 6 goals up.

 

[BrunoV]

And is all of that (not the injuries, or lack of, and Ryder being there) just a flash in the pan, or is that something to do with coaching too?

I have no idea whether it really is, kelvin, but surely you see why it's not so ridiculous nor drama queen-like to think our drop off this year is at least partly attributable to what's happening- or not happening, as it may be- in the coaches' box.

Four years and four sets of excuses.

Some excuses are legitimate. All cloud judgment and we still seem to believe in a group of players that dont share the attributes of players in the good sides.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

He was good until this this year. If you're going to lay 2015 at his feet - which is fair enough - then he gets credit for 2013, etc.

And so where does 2012 sit?

So have Carlton and Brisbane. It has done little to help them.

Do you think they'd be in a better position with Ratten or Voss? I doubt it.

I've become a broken record on this front, but in VFL/AFL history it takes on average a coach 3 years into his tenure to win a flag. 4 years if you want to only go from 1990.

The ones who are significantly above that average and took 6+ years...

McHale: Losing Grand Finalist 4 years in
Hughes (Rich): Losing Grand Finalist 1 year in
Hughes (Melb): Lost prelim 4 years in, already a premiership coach at Richmond
Hickey (3rd tenure): Lost prelim 6 years in, already a premiership coach
Jeans (StK): Losing Grand Finalist 5 years in
Williams: Lost prelim 4 years in
Thompson: Lost prelim 5 years in
Malthouse (Coll): Losing Grand Finalist 3 years in, already a premiership coach at West Coast

 

[yodellinhank]

And so where does 2012 sit?



Do you think they'd be in a better position with Ratten or Voss? I doubt it.

I've become a broken record on this front, but in VFL/AFL history it takes on average a coach 3 years into his tenure to win a flag. 4 years if you want to only go from 1990.

The ones who are significantly above that average and took 6+ years...

McHale: Losing Grand Finalist 4 years in
Hughes (Rich): Losing Grand Finalist 1 year in
Hughes (Melb): Lost prelim 4 years in, already a premiership coach at Richmond
Hickey (3rd tenure): Lost prelim 6 years in, already a premiership coach
Jeans (StK): Losing Grand Finalist 5 years in
Williams: Lost prelim 4 years in
Thompson: Lost prelim 5 years in
Malthouse (Coll): Losing Grand Finalist 3 years in, already a premiership coach at West Coast

Welcome back to the fold, Peter Jackson.

Just a quick one - how many of those coaches had their tenure interrupted by an ASADA witch hunt that pretty much tied their hands?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I don't think you can look at this based solely on wins and losers. It's more complex.

My view is that I don't believe this football club can physically or mentally move on with James Hird as coach.

The club will never escape this saga if he continues. Every time he sues a lawyer, an insurance company, a Bomber Thompson speaks in the media.. The club will always have to be connected in the media to this ordeal even post November if he remains. He is totally wedded to it and whilst he is there, so is Essendon.

The club need to carefully manage it. A guilty verdict gives it the out. If not guilty, it should make a pragmatic decision based on what's best for the club. A fresh start. To move on, new Chairman, coach and Doctor. Until it does, the club will not be able to free itself from the media pack, the AFL wrath and the wider publics hatred. It should occur no earlier than November. Then decide.

Unfortunately it might be unfair on James as he's a champion of the club and probably harshly treated and condemned for his role in this in a relative sense. Bomber Thompson hired Robinson yet he's not condemned? But Bomber is now not at Essendon...

However, this is not about protecting James ahead of serving the best interests of the club. The club comes first and it must move on and rebuild on field, off field and it's culture. Players may love him but a decision needs to be considering the broader context first.

I don't buy this.

Winning solves everything.

When this is over, if we start winning, it won't matter who is coach.

Football is winning. It fixes absolutely everything.

Not saying Hird is or isn't the man, but the "we'll never move on" isn't right. If he can deliver success, we will.

 

[DonsRule]

I think too many blame one thing here too.


I'll admit there are some very fair questions on if Hird is the one to take us there.


But I don't think list management has been great either. I think draft penalties hurt us. I remember reading some of the folks that are good with list management between here and BB between here and BB, and once we had our draft penalties handed to us, they almost instantly said short term out chance was gone, list wasn't quite there but was close and we lost the chance to really fill the gaps. Quite possible list managments plans were suddenly out the windows.

Add that to GWS and GCS getting a lot of the top talent where we may have got some better picks, 2 new teams over a very short period.


I think the Football department review may be good at finding where we have gone wrong.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

Just a quick one - how many of those coaches had their tenure interrupted by an ASADA witch hunt that pretty much tied their hands?

And how many of them had an ASADA witch hunt driving their players to defiant heights during their best seasons?

 

[yodellinhank]

And how many of them had an ASADA witch hunt driving their players to defiant heights during their best seasons?

Not sure how much stock to put into it, but that is a point I guess.

For me Hird's tenure started well enough, and everything since ASADA has just been one day cricket. There's games played, you barrack for your side but it all means bugger all and specific games are soon meaningless and forgotten. Until there's clear air nothing means anything anymore.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

I know it's all the way back in rounds 1+2 but how can we go from pushing Sydney and beating Hawthorn to bottom 4?

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do

 

[Nasty Penguin]

And how many of them had an ASADA witch hunt driving their players to defiant heights during their best seasons?

You can only play on that emotion for so long and they did. It's the feeling of it being all over and then it all rushing back again that has really knocked the players around and to a degree Hird too.
The before and after form of this club is chalk and cheese. Many say they should just be used to it by now but you can't even imagine putting yourself in their shoes. I'd like the club to just allow Hird to do a piece on his recollection of events maybe with some interviews with players as well. I think it would be a cathartic experience for both parties and supporters as well. Or maybe it's just gone past the point and once CAS has ruled they close the book and move on. I don't what ever works i guess.
I am still of the belief that Hird can coach and it has more to do with the surrounding environment and support. When he was first announced as coach no one questioned his lack of experience as a coach and the mistakes he'll make along the way. Bomber was supposed to be his Mentor and look how that turned out. I'm sure many assistant coaches have made bad choices and had bad ideas but they are stopped in their tracks by more senior heads. Hard decisions to be made at the seasons end and once this review is done.
If Hird does go then wipe the entire slate(read football department) clean otherwise this club will continue to go backwards.

 

[Shane Hird]

Look...a lot of people are in the silly habit of running continuous replays in their mind of every conceivable crap thing that has effected our club in the last 3 years.

You will lead a a more happier existence if you focus on what's happening now..like today now.

Nothing else in the past matters now. It's a pointless exercise.

We're preparing at this moment for next season. And there's nothing wrong with that. How can Laverde, Langford, Browne, Edwards and co fit into a 22? What older slower players look likely to be discarded?

Hird is just sitting there in patient planning mode during games now. Not combat mode.

We haven't got the personal to fight the better equipped enemies.

We haven't got any organisation at the moment. Key personnel in and out of the side has disrupted what ever system Hird gad going.

Time for changes. Things haven't worked out to plan. That's footy.

Accept it and pray you don't see HFC win another flag this GF day...and look beyond next week.

It's 2016 already at Tullamarine.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

The very fact we are not playing for wins- effectively tanking if you really want to go there- is a sign of something gone very wrong in itself.

I still cannot shake the feeling we are under-performing; regardless of ASAGA and injuries. I don't think it's alarmist as a fan to cite that.

Regardless of ASAGA??

I see this a lot here. The complete dismissal of the main reason we are having the year we are. Jobe went to England during the season FFS. Our captain. He made it clear how much it was affecting him. Why on earth do you think it wouldn't be affecting others dramatically. The difference between top sides and bottom sides is less than people think and a very large component is mental.

No coach would have gotten more from the players this year. To talk about game plans like we think the coaches want the crap the players are serving up is naivety at it's best. Bomber couldn't get them to play the way he wanted to most the time last year.

I don't condone tanking but the coaches know half our players are mentally shot and the others are too inexperienced. The only thing that can be gained now from this year is assessing the young players and maybe higher draft picks. Doing the first will lead to the second.

 

[yaco55]

Not quite. Got to 13-3, then lost four on the trot, then beat Carlton, then lost to Richmond. So went 1-5 to finish.

Players were informed by the AFLPA after Round 17 there would no finals.

On another matter - I hope the coaches are very careful with the way they make changes within games in the next month - We don't want the AFL breathing down our necks - We only have to look at last week's event.

 

[yaco55]

I don't think you can look at this based solely on wins and losers. It's more complex.

My view is that I don't believe this football club can physically or mentally move on with James Hird as coach.

The club will never escape this saga if he continues. Every time he sues a lawyer, an insurance company, a Bomber Thompson speaks in the media.. The club will always have to be connected in the media to this ordeal even post November if he remains. He is totally wedded to it and whilst he is there, so is Essendon.

The club need to carefully manage it. A guilty verdict gives it the out. If not guilty, it should make a pragmatic decision based on what's best for the club. A fresh start. To move on, new Chairman, coach and Doctor. Until it does, the club will not be able to free itself from the media pack, the AFL wrath and the wider publics hatred. It should occur no earlier than November. Then decide.

Unfortunately it might be unfair on James as he's a champion of the club and probably harshly treated and condemned for his role in this in a relative sense. Bomber Thompson hired Robinson yet he's not condemned? But Bomber is now not at Essendon...

However, this is not about protecting James ahead of serving the best interests of the club. The club comes first and it must move on and rebuild on field, off field and it's culture. Players may love him but a decision needs to be considering the broader context first.

An excellent post - But will we get the best available coach while WADA hangs over our head - i doubt it !

 

[Mercurial89]

Also the b&f being moved forward and the review it does seem they want to give everyone that will be there next year as big a break as possible.

Id like to know what type of work they are doing with staff and player mental state.

 

[MarkG]

Id like to know what type of work they are doing with staff and player mental state.

Unless their mental state is repaired, they will remain a cellar dweller.

Many of their poor decision making and poor disposals were caused by players not involved in the WADA investigation, so sick of hearing that excuse.

How can the club give us the confidence that we will not have 25% of our players unavailable once again due to injury.

How can we be confident that our scoring capability will be twice or more what it currently is to be competitive.

How can we be confident with this high possession backwards and sideways and low scoring game plan.

Why are we so slow moving the ball into the forward line. Why do we persist with this game after game.

 

[Doss]

Regardless of ASAGA??

I see this a lot here. The complete dismissal of the main reason we are having the year we are. Jobe went to England during the season FFS. Our captain. He made it clear how much it was affecting him. Why on earth do you think it wouldn't be affecting others dramatically. The difference between top sides and bottom sides is less than people think and a very large component is mental.

No coach would have gotten more from the players this year. To talk about game plans like we think the coaches want the crap the players are serving up is naivety at it's best. Bomber couldn't get them to play the way he wanted to most the time last year.

I don't condone tanking but the coaches know half our players are mentally shot and the others are too inexperienced. The only thing that can be gained now from this year is assessing the young players and maybe higher draft picks. Doing the first will lead to the second.

*sigh*

I did not say it would not be affecting people. I thought that was clear.

However, it is not unreasonable to suggest we have big problems that are not attributable to the saga. If the club really believes everything would be fixed if ASAGA was to magically evaporate then they're completely delusional.

That is all I am saying.

 

[BrunoV]

I dont rate Kavanagh as AFL standard - And Dalgleish who is barely VFL standard.

In relation to Dalgleish I'll take my lead from Dodoro and my observations from 2013 and 2014.

He was one of the players Dodoro named as being someone the club really wanted to get a look at in the interview from Subi. It's rotten luck that his body has failed him now.

Dalgleish showed plenty in the nab cup too

 

[Towno78]

Players were informed by the AFLPA after Round 17 there would no finals.

On another matter - I hope the coaches are very careful with the way they make changes within games in the next month - We don't want the AFL breathing down our necks - We only have to look at last week's event.

If you are referring to the afl breathing down our necks due to tanking... Nothing to worry about for any side that doesn't get the number 1 pick, and much less to worry about now the <4 wins pp is gone.
They aren't going to have a crack at tanking for the team that gets pick 4 after burying their heads in the sand for a decade on teams racking up 1 and 2 in the draft

 

[Big Wilbur]

Serious question. In light of the bulldog's performance this year how do you feel about Hird regularly throwing up the excuse you have a very young side?

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Serious question. In light of the bulldog's performance this year how do you feel about Hird regularly throwing up the excuse you have a very young side?

In all seriousness piss off.

To answer your question, you guys have bucked the trend and are doing fantastic. Go and celebrate on your board. You'd want to hope that this form of yours is sustained over a few years and not a flash in the pan.

GC, Melb, GWS and all clubs which have gone youth have lost and been bottom 4 for a long time.

its common sense that young teams lose more than they win. One outlier doesn't change anything.

 

[MarkG]

Serious question. In light of the bulldog's performance this year how do you feel about Hird regularly throwing up the excuse you have a very young side?

There are young top draft picks such as Bontompelli and Stringer and young pick 37's. Bulldogs have the former. You also have top up players, but your nucleus is the top guys.

Bombers have been deprived of draft picks.

Who are your 2014 picks? Laverde and Langford are coming along well.

You guys did well to off load Cooney.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

*sigh*

I did not say it would not be affecting people. I thought that was clear.

However, it is not unreasonable to suggest we have big problems that are not attributable to the saga. If the club really believes everything would be fixed if ASAGA was to magically evaporate then they're completely delusional.

That is all I am saying.

*sigh*

I'm not saying there aren't other issues aside from ASADA and they would magically disappear with a non-guilty CAS verdict, but right now it's near on impossible to tell the forest from the trees because of it all.

Now is the time for careful decisions that are based on all the information, not just game results and bits 'n' pieces. Not just on whether an individual is under performing but why. That goes from the board to the rookie list.

You can't just say regardless of the ASADA situation a certain level must be reached and if it's not then that person needs to go. It's far too complex. If a person is to be determined to be under performing to a level warranting either delisting, trading, firing etc then the determination must be made with ASADA saga in mind, not regardless of it. Do you see the difference?

I'm grateful Neale Daniher is reviewing our club, I think it's an inspired choice.