Injury Blackmores injury update brought to you by Blackmores

[doodles98]

And you call yourself a Collingwood supporter??? Hmmphh

lol yeah.. missed my chance to be one-eyed.

 

[Kirby]

lol yeah.. missed my chance to be one-eyed.

I took mine out with a rusty spoon just to prove my street cred.

 

[CFC2010]

I personally have been misdiagnosed and given incorrect treatments from highly qualified medical professionals (surgeons). My mother had the same experience and I know a lot of other people who have as well. People of Spicey's opinions.. that if they

My personal example.. I got an eye injury...... Doctors/ scientists etc are very very fallible and make mistakes all the time. It's a very complicated field and they're only human. Questioning them is a very very good idea at times...

I have a very similar story (mine involves a broken arm) but you can add a physio to my experience. Totally agree with the bolded above.

It doesn't mean I walk around with a cross to bear.......I just took it as "s**t happens" and moved on.
Having another surgery fixed my problem straight away.

Back on topic.......I hope Elliott gets it sorted out this time around.
Like Kirby I am also interested in Varcoe's hamstring status????

 

[Scodog10]

Surely this is going a little too far Scodog10 - although I am interested in what your chosen field is now?

I got that when I noticed you liked Kirby's post once, but once it gets personal it's unfortunately a little harder to disengage. In relation to my career maybe PM me because that's only likely to continue off topic discussion.

FWIW the decision on Melbourne's second netball team is apparently released today so maybe that thread needs a bump and go the Storm

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Let's sum by saying:
Balme does the best injury updates, because he may or may not be, muddled, befuddled, maybe short, maybe long, maybe English, maybe not, and no expertise in medicine, physio, reading auto cues, perhaps even no expertise in being sure.... Maybe

 

[The Royal Sampler]

What part of "tertiary education" was difficult to understand? The tertiary? Or education? Considering there are PHD'S in journalism available your query makes little sense...

I do find it interesting though that the one individual that got my point was TRS!

Unfortunately I botched that explanation, but yes I think I got your point!

White coat syndrome is as bad as being a doomsday anti vaxxer conspiracy survival nut...

We must have different understandings of what constitutes white coat syndrome?

Perhaps another example is in order. I am certain that there are some very good financial minds on this site that provide fantastic insight into whether a financial decision is sound or otherwise. With annual reports available to them they actually have the data and expertise to form a firm opinion yet I haven't seen ol mate Spicey launching in to defend those individuals when they're questioned. It must be such a bugbear...

Finance is an interesting example, as it is also predictive in a sense. If over the course of the financial year you take a few hits but the balance sheet is in the black at the end, it's a job well done. Doctors and physios have to work on probabilities and success rates too. Not everything will work but that doesn't equate to mismanagement or incompetence, just fallibility.

Doctors/ scientists etc are very very fallible and make mistakes all the time. It's a very complicated field and they're only human. Questioning them is a very very good idea at times...

My take on what Spicey said was merely that an expert opinion and a non-expert opinion should be weighted differently.

 

[Scodog10]

I personally have been misdiagnosed and given incorrect treatments from highly qualified medical professionals (surgeons). My mother had the same experience and I know a lot of other people who have as well. People of Spicey's opinions.. that if they have the degree and the white coat then they're not to be questioned are a bigger problem in society than those of the opposite persuasion imo... T4 program springs to mind.

My personal example.. I got an eye injury.. a stick went into my eye and scraped the whole cornea up. I went to hospital immediately. They said.. let it heal by itself and gave me some antibiotic drops... no stitching (mistake 1). I then visited a highly regarded eye specialist over the next few weeks. He was checking my eye and telling me it is all healing well. I was telling him it wasn't getting any better in terms of vision.. (it was like looking through an opaque glass window). He kept saying it will take some more time to settle down and that I can expect permanent damage to my vision in that eye. (mistake 2). Not convinced (because my vision was getting no better at all).. I went to another specialist for a second opinion just a few days later. He looked at my eye and within 5 seconds said.. " this is bad, you've got significant epithelial ingrowth" (where the outer cells of the eye get under the cornea and start rapidly reproducing and pushing the cornea out to the point your cornea will dissolve). It was just before Christmas but he saw it as an immediate emergency and I needed surgery in the next few days if I wanted to save vision in that eye. So next day I was in hospital having surgery. Operation went fine and my eye is good but they also missed taking out some stitches which I also had to go back and get checked out (off my own steam because of the irritation) (mistake 3). So in summary, if I had simply blindly accepted (pardon the pun) what the first specialist said.. I would be effectively blind in one eye right now. Doctors/ scientists etc are very very fallible and make mistakes all the time. It's a very complicated field and they're only human. Questioning them is a very very good idea at times...

Yes Doodles thank you your information has brought it all together!

My major concern/ issue can be brought back to your real life application.

In the scenario you presented the specialists that provided the expert opinions on your eye is the specialist that advised a non-surgical approach to Elliott's back. Using TRS' knowledge where he explained that for a number of months that particular course of action was a success until we saw the setback. The setback was caused by the "high performance" team overloading Elliott. Which would loosely equate to you not using the eyedrops as initially advised. Like a rubber band they stretched it and stretched it and then it snapped, s**t happens.

Now that the trigger has been found let's take the next logical step. Had you not been using the drops properly that would have still meant surgery was required, but I doubt you would have gone to a different specialist. They would have emphasised your need to use them and you would have trusted them and by then it's too late you've lost your eye.

From that we see the trigger was internal and that the specialists advice was working. Why then has the club chosen to look for a new specialist? That right there is the crux of my issue when their advice was working. It just feels to me that despite all our issues of the past 3 years according to the clubs not the fault of those within the club (remember my earlier post about wanting the high performers?

Look I'm sure there's a lot of argumentative types that won't understand that and will still say I'm challenging the views of medical experts (which I'm 100% not), but at least I'm confident you're on the same page

 

[doodles98]

We must have different understandings of what constitutes white coat syndrome?
Yeah the white coat syndrome I was referring to has nothing to do with high blood pressure. Do you by any chance know of any alternate non medical condition meanings??.

My take on what Spicey said was merely that an expert opinion and a non-expert opinion should be weighted differently.[/QUOTE]
Groundbreaking concept!

edit.. i'm no good at editing into another post sorry

 

[doodles98]

Yes Doodles thank you your information has brought it all together!

My major concern/ issue can be brought back to your real life application.

In the scenario you presented the specialists that provided the expert opinions on your eye is the specialist that advised a non-surgical approach to Elliott's back. Using TRS' knowledge where he explained that for a number of months that particular course of action was a success until we saw the setback. The setback was caused by the "high performance" team overloading Elliott. Which would loosely equate to you not using the eyedrops as initially advised. Like a rubber band they stretched it and stretched it and then it snapped, s**t happens.

Now that the trigger has been found let's take the next logical step. Had you not been using the drops properly that would have still meant surgery was required, but I doubt you would have gone to a different specialist. They would have emphasised your need to use them and you would have trusted them and by then it's too late you've lost your eye.

From that we see the trigger was internal and that the specialists advice was working. Why then has the club chosen to look for a new specialist? That right there is the crux of my issue when their advice was working. It just feels to me that despite all our issues of the past 3 years according to the clubs not the fault of those within the club (remember my earlier post about wanting the high performers?

Look I'm sure there's a lot of argumentative types that won't understand that and will still say I'm challenging the views of medical experts (which I'm 100% not), but at least I'm confident you're on the same page

No way man .. I took the eyedrops.. every one of them!! I swear.
WTF didn't Witts use the Savlon cream is what I want to know.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Using TRS' knowledge where he explained that for a number of months that particular course of action was a success until we saw the setback. The setback was caused by the "high performance" team overloading Elliott. Which would loosely equate to you not using the eyedrops as initially advised. Like a rubber band they stretched it and stretched it and then it snapped, s**t happens.

I see then that I've failed in my explanation. The setback was not caused by the high-performance team overloading Elliott. The setback was caused by Elliott's (stress) fractured vertebra failing to achieve union.

There are known knowns and known unknowns here; we know (as of this year) that Elliott has a pars defect causing his back pain. Last year this was a known unknown. Now the known unknown is how long Elliott's vertebra will take to heal. Months? Six months? Never?

So the club has allocated Elliott a period of rest; we're not sure how long exactly but some rest and then a graduated return to running, kicking drills, etc. This may not equate to what is considered best practice for a non-athlete but as I have explained elsewhere, elite athletes have access to greater resources and so their rehab can be "optimised" in ways that are impractical for the average Joe.

It's important to remember that many people out there in the community have pars defects and are asymptomatic. So when Elliott returns from his period of rest, we start loading him up and see how he responds. We do not scan him every week to see how his vertebra is healing, because even if the vertebra hasn't united, he may still be symptom free.

It's also important to realise that up to a point, Elliott was symptom free, but the task that caused the "setback" (I am not a fan of the term "setback" here, what we've really done is just find Elliott's current limit before reporting symptoms, it's disappointing but he hasn't been "set back") was a kicking drill. He wasn't being asked to do anything over and above what would be required of him to play a game of football anyway. This is why I disagree that the high-performance department overloaded him, a kicking drill is far from an unreasonable demand to place on Elliott's back.

So now that we've gained some evidence that managed conservatively (i.e. non-surgically) Elliott's vertebra is unlikely to gain enough strength to allow him to play football. He didn't get to the point of contact, tackling, full training or limited game time in the VFL. His back said "enough!" on a kicking drill. If Collingwood's Twitter account is to be believed, we are now seeking the opinion of a new specialist, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is a specialist who advocates surgery in these instances. Time will tell.

From that we see the trigger was internal and that the specialists advice was working. Why then has the club chosen to look for a new specialist? That right there is the crux of my issue when their advice was working.

See above. Progressively increasing the demands placed on his back, has revealed it wasn't strong enough to stand up to football after being allowed to heal on its own. It wasn't that their advice was working, working, working - then stopped working. More like they built a bridge then saw progressively how many cars they could drive over it at once until it collapsed. Now they know it's not enough cars to meet the demands of the city, they decide whether to change the flow of traffic or build a stronger bridge.

 

[Jasper84]

I think the lesson we can all take from this is that Google has more references to cats playing piano than treating Pars defects.

If you want debate the merits of playing Heart and Soul without getting your whiskers stuck in the keys, then I am ready for the fight!

 

[Ketchup]

I think my stance on this issue has been stated enough and I won't get into that environment, Im also not going to argue with The Royal Sampler given his knowledge and profession. But surely without knowing the individual and personal details to Jamie's case that given the previous history of injuries and rehabilitation it's hard to look past the fact that our medical staff (from the outside) seemingly get a lot of calls wrong. Whether it's the medical staff at hand or the high performance staff in charge of loading the players back into activity, somewhere along the lines something seems to be going wrong.

Yes, maybe this was going to happen to Elliot either way given the serious nature of his condition, the issue is that this seems to be a common occurrence over the last few years, and sooner or later there must be a straw that breaks the camels back.

 

[doodles98]

Unfortunately I botched that explanation, but yes I think I got your point!


We must have different understandings of what constitutes white coat syndrome?


Finance is an interesting example, as it is also predictive in a sense. If over the course of the financial year you take a few hits but the balance sheet is in the black at the end, it's a job well done. Doctors and physios have to work on probabilities and success rates too. Not everything will work but that doesn't equate to mismanagement or incompetence, just fallibility.


My take on what Spicey said was merely that an expert opinion and a non-expert opinion should be weighted differently.

Lemme just say I have utmost respect for doctors, their intelligence and the incredible amount of knowledge and learning they have.. and the hard work they've put in to get it. The other side to my story about my eye that I neglected to point out is that without good doctors and surgeons I would be blind in one eye right now. My point is solely around the dangers of attributing god-like infallibility to any any one group of people; and more broadly that those who ask questions that force answers in society perform a much greater benefit than those who do not.. on the whole.

Finance is an interesting one. I have another story to bore you with if you don't mind... Last decade in the London financial times, a leading finance journalist started reporting on the fund management performance of his 3 young children (all aged under 12 I think). He gave them a fictional pool of money to invest (in the hundreds of millions similar to a large fund). He gave them the financial times stock listings and let them choose their firms to invest in... long story short... his kids managed to outperform a lot of actual genuine funds with a similar investment pool. They did better than some of the fund managing geniuses who get $10 mill bonuses a year and have teams of highly paid experts and support staff helping them.
I'm not sure what relevance that has to anything but it's a good story yeah. The lesson there is that funds management, unlike medicine, is very unscientific still I suppose. I won't be letting my 8 year old diagnose my medical conditions any time soon but she probably has as good a chance as I do of picking winners on the stock market.

 

[Scodog10]

The Royal Sampler maybe Ketchup's post comes closer to the way of things from my perspective. It feels to me using what has been presented that there's a breakdown somewhere along the lines.

Where it eventuates from I don't really care, but like everyone else I want it fixed so we have our best 22 on the park consistently. That leads to better results and clearer opinions can be formed on the ability of the coach and list.

FWIW I may very well have underestimated the influence of the football department in the return of Elliott. Which would open Pandora's box further.

 

[Ketchup]

The Royal Sampler maybe Ketchup's post comes closer to the way of things from my perspective. It feels to me using what has been presented that there's a breakdown somewhere along the lines.

Where it eventuates from I don't really care, but like everyone else I want it fixed so we have our best 22 on the park consistently. That leads to better results and clearer opinions can be formed on the ability of the coach and list.

FWIW I may very well have underestimated the influence of the football department in the return of Elliott. Which would open Pandora's box further.

My natural inclination is to blame our high performance staff, but that's only because that's what I know. Im not involved in any way, shape or form within our football club (or any for that matter.). I do have brief experience inside football clubs when I did some internships when going through uni, and let me say a lot of the basics are just over looked and done very poorly in a professional environment. I did one internship at an AFL club, and one at an A-league club (granted the A-league didn't have the financials that it has now to put in the resources back then) but still simple monitoring protocols were done very poorly in both environments.

This to me seems the most simple explanation I can come up with when looking in from the outside, with that said I could be completely wrong and the problem could very well be in the medical department, im just more inclined to blame the High Performance department because I've run into a few people to say the least and a lot are very average operators. But to think there isn't a problem at the moment just seems to be naive considering our recent history. It's the clubs job to find out where this problem lays.

 

[rand corp]

How's Marley Williams getting on after the amputation ?

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Finance is an interesting one. I have another story to bore you with if you don't mind... Last decade in the London financial times, a leading finance journalist started reporting on the fund management performance of his 3 young children (all aged under 12 I think). He gave them a fictional pool of money to invest (in the hundreds of millions similar to a large fund). He gave them the financial times stock listings and let them choose their firms to invest in... long story short... his kids managed to outperform a lot of actual genuine funds with a similar investment pool. They did better than some of the fund managing geniuses who get $10 mill bonuses a year and have teams of highly paid experts and support staff helping them.
I'm not sure what relevance that has to anything but it's a good story yeah. The lesson there is that funds management, unlike medicine, is very unscientific still I suppose. I won't be letting my 8 year old diagnose my medical conditions any time soon but she probably has as good a chance as I do of picking winners on the stock market.

I concur, in fact I not long ago read a very good book on the subject, "Fooled By Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Well worth a read.

 

[Schraderbrau]

In terms of saying nothing Balme is elite. Wouldn't be surprised if one of the political parties if one of the political parties tried to headhunt him

 

[Lefthanded]

I think you kids need to stop the squabbling. It's getting pretty boring.

This is not directed at anyone because all involved in this little battle are good posters.

To get back on topic, has Varcoe got further problems in his hammy or not?

I have a very similar story (mine involves a broken arm) but you can add a physio to my experience. Totally agree with the bolded above.

It doesn't mean I walk around with a cross to bear.......I just took it as "s**t happens" and moved on.
Having another surgery fixed my problem straight away.

Back on topic.......I hope Elliott gets it sorted out this time around.
Like Kirby I am also interested in Varcoe's hamstring status????

Given he's again listed on the injury list (AFL site) and that he only spent 47% time on ground (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=6239&advv=Y) I'd say the answer on Varcoe is yes he does have further hamstring issues.

 

[Lefthanded]

The Royal Sampler maybe Ketchup's post comes closer to the way of things from my perspective. It feels to me using what has been presented that there's a breakdown somewhere along the lines.

Where it eventuates from I don't really care, but like everyone else I want it fixed so we have our best 22 on the park consistently. That leads to better results and clearer opinions can be formed on the ability of the coach and list.

FWIW I may very well have underestimated the influence of the football department in the return of Elliott. Which would open Pandora's box further.

Very much agree with this but for us with very limited knowledge it's difficult to know who is to blame, hence I generally don't get too caught up in it. For instance, as follow on from your previous post consider the following questions:
1. Do we actually KNOW the medical advice was followed?
2. Do we KNOW Elliott did everything asked of him (eg I'm guessing he didn't go surfing like Thomas but something on smaller scale - may be something very little but there's good reason someone as thorough as Pendlebury misses fewer games even when he's clearly been injured)
3. Was going to ask if we actually knew high performance team overloaded Elliott but TRS has already dealt with that better than I

Conclusion - we don't know whether the issue is external specialist advice, internal medical, internal high performance, internal football department, bad luck or Elliott having too much sex (TRS may clarify if pars defect and shaggers back are related) or other.

 

[CFC2010]

Given he's again listed on the injury list (AFL site) and that he only spent 47% time on ground (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=6239&advv=Y) I'd say the answer on Varcoe is yes he does have further hamstring issues.

I am allowed to say that is Bad Luck? I wouldn't want World War Three to erupt about our Medical/Rehab/Strengthening Department.

At least the black cat wont be able to type a response on Bigfooty...........on the other hand I did see one riding a unicorn the other week

 

[The Royal Sampler]

TRS may clarify if pars defect and shaggers back are related

You can certainly have the latter without the former, however as excessive extension is a potential aggravating factor you could certainly reconsider your position of choice.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Given he's again listed on the injury list (AFL site) and that he only spent 47% time on ground (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=6239&advv=Y) I'd say the answer on Varcoe is yes he does have further hamstring issues.

Varcoe expected to play according to Bucks at his presser. Ditto Reid and Cox.

 

[Kirby]

You can certainly have the latter without the former, however as excessive extension is a potential aggravating factor you could certainly reconsider your position of choice.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Unfortunately I botched that explanation, but yes I think I got your point!


We must have different understandings of what constitutes white coat syndrome?


Finance is an interesting example, as it is also predictive in a sense. If over the course of the financial year you take a few hits but the balance sheet is in the black at the end, it's a job well done. Doctors and physios have to work on probabilities and success rates too. Not everything will work but that doesn't equate to mismanagement or incompetence, just fallibility.


My take on what Spicey said was merely that an expert opinion and a non-expert opinion should be weighted differently.

One of life's interesting takes could be (taken from Yes Minister)

"Why is it the more inexpert you are, the more likely you think you will be right"