Moved Thread Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?

[STPer18]

Hawkins winning by 80 votes, he's gonna take some catching from here.

 

[Chucks]

Hawkins by a distance. Significantly better footballer than junktime Jack.

 

[Falcon3518]

Hawkins winning by 80 votes, he's gonna take some catching from here.

We’ll see in decades from now what people think when people haven’t seen him play and The hate for Richmond has cooled down and nostalgia kicks in. People default to using the record book. This is fact, people do it with Coventry and Bunton Snr.

 

[owen87]

We’ll see in decades from now what people think when people haven’t seen him play

Ah yes. The highly valid and informed opinions of people who never saw either player play. I'll be awaiting their input to tell me what to think about players I did see play.

 

[PhatBoy]

No because raw numbers don’t tell the whole story. Like comparing across eras with goal tally’s, the difficulty is not the same in each era/season so you have to look at what that number means. Coleman’s the vast minority of the time mean you are the best forward the other guy won 5 meaning he was the best in 5 seasons, that is more impressive than the other guy. If the league average is 50,000 goals for an extreme example 1,000 is not impressive and vice versa. Team defence compared to 1v1 defence proves this. Buddy’s 1000 goals is more impressive to me than 1000 goals in in the VFL era. He would’ve kicked more back then probable 1200-1300. This is basic arithmetic when analysis data can’t just use raw numbers on there own, you have to look at the whole story.

Buddy may have kicked more - that’s hard to predict because the players who were generally kicking the most goals then were strength players who led out from the goal square and didn’t roam and kick their goals from long range like Franklin did. I suspect his numbers would stack up in any era that’s ever been played but the concentration of defence within a back 50 has lent itself to his freak efforts from 40+ metres out. Maybe he’d be more prolific, maybe not. Ironically the player who most played like him was Ablett Sr in his decade before moving to full forward.

 

[STPer18]

We’ll see in decades from now what people think when people haven’t seen him play and The hate for Richmond has cooled down and nostalgia kicks in. People default to using the record book. This is fact, people do it with Coventry and Bunton Snr.

Once this thread dies I'm not spending another second thinking about it, let alone decades. Will probably be Hawkins still though.

 

[PhatBoy]

We’ll see in decades from now what people think when people haven’t seen him play and The hate for Richmond has cooled down and nostalgia kicks in. People default to using the record book. This is fact, people do it with Coventry and Bunton Snr.

The hate for Richmond? There is literally a thread on the main board at the moment about who the most hated club is.

Geelong is beating Richmond by some distance - almost 2:1

 

[Falcon3518]

Kinda does though.

A Coleman award tells you who kicked the most goals in the H&A season that year.

Tell me which player is the better forward of these two;

13.2​	Kicks​	9.6​
5.3​	Handballs​	3.6​
18.4​	Disposals​	13.2​
5.8​	Marks​	5.2​
3.6​	Goals​	3.0​
3.4​	Behinds​	2.2​
3.7​	Tackles​	2.6​
0.2​	Hitouts​	0.4​
4.3​	Inside 50s​	1.8​
1.3​	Goal Assists​	0.9​
1.9​	Frees For​	1.2​
2.5​	Frees Against​	1.1​
8.8​	Contested Possessions​	7.0​
10.4​	Uncontested Possessions​	6.2​
11.5​	Effective Disposals​	8.6​
62.5%​	Disposal Efficiency %​	65.2%​
4.1​	Clangers​	2.2​
2.0​	Contested Marks​	1.8​
3.6​	Marks Inside 50​	3.8​
0.6​	Clearances​	0.4​
0.2​	Rebound 50s​	0.1​
2.0​	One Percenters​	1.7​
0.9​	Bounces​	0.1​
87.2​	Time On Ground %​	96.1​
102.3​	AFL Fantasy Score​	80.2​
116.6​	Supercoach Score​	90.8​

On raw numbers player A. But as mentioned previously you have to look at the whole picture and compare to other seasons/players to determine what is means and how good they are.

I’m assuming Player A is Hawkins and Player B is Jack and you are trying to get a gotcha moment correct?

 

[Jazny]

Jack is way better. Doesn't rely on being a giant Orc, but relies on football skills and has played in an incredibly bad team which he carried for 60% of his career! If Jack played in the Geelong forward line his entire career he would have kicked 1000 goals. Tom is big and lucky and spent a lot of his career being a giant spud.

 

[PhatBoy]

We’ll see in decades from now what people think when people haven’t seen him play and The hate for Richmond has cooled down and nostalgia kicks in. People default to using the record book. This is fact, people do it with Coventry and Bunton Snr.

The people who DID see them play and unanimously talk or talked about how amazing they were, are not all part of a conspiracy to lie about them.

I literally through work recently, had a customer from England who watched several of Don Bradman’s tests during his final tour.

When she tells me how amazing he was, I don’t somehow think my 0 experiences of watching him are more relevant to her several experiences of watching him and write off her analysis as being meaningless.

My own next door neighbour was at the MCG the last time the Demons won a flag before last year.

I never saw any of those greats of the MFC play but do you think my interpretation of them trumps hers just because it happened in a different era?

 

[Falcon3518]

The hate for Richmond? There is literally a thread on the main board at the moment about who the most hated club is.

Geelong is beating Richmond by some distance - almost 2:1

I mean once both our success dies down to be fair. But that’s a surprising poll. Every board I’ve been on and fb pages hates us. Especially the other 4 big clubs that hate us regardless.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

It is the most accurate. Similarly in law, memory is considered the least credible evidence. This is the same as using “vibe” in this debate.

A statistic is an objective measure of a particular objective thing (number of kicks, number of marks etc). Those number cannot be argued with.

However, you try (and try again) to assemble them to draw some truly bizarre conclusions. When you start to suggest a whatsit is worth 2.5 thingamajigs to prove a point, please know - you've gone way past "statistics".

Hopefully a tigers win on the weekend will help you calm down. Go Tiges!

 

[HBFlanker]

Hawkins for me just, but i feel as though he is only smashing this poll because his career trajectory is so different to Jacks.

Last 5 years individually Hawkins has been better than Jack, however Jack has had the team success.

Its a bloody good debate.

 

[Falcon3518]

The people who DID see them play and unanimously talk or talked about how amazing they were, are not all part of a conspiracy to lie about them.

I literally through work recently, had a customer from England who watched several of Don Bradman’s tests during his final tour.

When she tells me how amazing he was, I don’t somehow think my 0 experiences of watching him are more relevant to her several experiences of watching him and write off her analysis as being meaningless.

My own next door neighbour was at the MCG the last time the Demons won a flag before last year.

I never saw any of those greats of the MFC play but do you think my interpretation of them trumps hers just because it happened in a different era?

I’m just saying what happens, nothing more. Once those people die out and nobody can tell anymore stories about him. Record books are used, it’s inevitable.

 

[TheUnicorn]

We’ll see in decades from now what people think when people haven’t seen him play and The hate for Richmond has cooled down and nostalgia kicks in. People default to using the record book. This is fact, people do it with Coventry and Bunton Snr.

idk why every Richmond supporter in here seems to assume people are voting Hawkins simply because they hate Richmond lol? I was very happy when Richmond won their 3 premierships the joy it brought my grandpa after all those years was amazing. On the other hand Geelong is my 2nd least favourite team and I hate Selwood/Hawkins with a passion, Yet I still voted Hawkins??? You lot are so delusional.....

 

[Falcon3518]

A statistic is an objective measure of a particular objective thing (number of kicks, number of marks etc). Those number cannot be argued with.

However, you try (and try again) to assemble them to draw some truly bizarre conclusions. When you start to suggest a whatsit is worth 2.5 thingamajigs to prove a point, please know - you've gone way past "statistics".

Hopefully a tigers win on the weekend will help you calm down. Go Tiges!

It’s basic maths to know raw numbers on their own don’t mean anything man. I don’t know what else to say. A simpler way of looking at it is $50,000 today buys you a car. $50,000 back in 1920 buys you a mansion. The raw number is the same but means different things in different time periods as it is compared with everything else.

 

[owen87]

On raw numbers player A. But as mentioned previously you have to look at the whole picture and compare to other seasons/players to determine what is means and how good they are.

I’m assuming Player A is Hawkins and Player B is Jack and you are trying to get a gotcha moment correct?

Same season.

Buddy vs Jack

Buddy was clearly the best forward that year, but missed H&A games so didn't win the Coleman despite averaging substantially more goals than Reiwoldt or Hawkins.

Which tells you why Buddy made the AA team. That Hawkins made it over Reiwoldt, despite Reiwoldt winning the Coleman, also tells you that the Coleman isn't the be-all, end-all of assessing a forward like you want it to be.

 

[BF Tiger]

Just maybe Richmond have targeted Riewoldt more than Geelong did with Hawkins.

In 2010 when Riewoldt kicked 78 the next highest was 15. The ball would have been heading to Riewoldt at nearly every opportunity

In 2014 when Hawkins kicked 68, Geelong had 4 players in the 20's and another 2 on 17

I can't believe Richmond supporters have managed to get me defending Hawkins.

Being such an obvious target made Riewoldt more likely to be defended, yes?

 

[owen87]

Being such an obvious target made Riewoldt more likely to be defended, yes?

Given Richmond finished 2nd last, they probably didn't bother defending all that hard, no.

Quite often you see teams more evenly distribute goals as they improve. It's not 90s football any more.

 

[Headless]

It’s basic maths to know raw numbers on their own don’t mean anything man.

But more goals = better full forward?

 

[Falcon3518]

Same season.

Buddy vs Jack

Buddy was clearly the best forward that year, but missed H&A games so didn't win the Coleman despite averaging substantially more goals than Reiwoldt or Hawkins.

Which tells you why Buddy made the AA team. That Hawkins made it over Reiwoldt, despite Reiwoldt winning the Coleman, also tells you that the Coleman isn't the be-all, end-all of assessing a forward like you want it to be.

Longevity is factored in when assessing AA. Jack was unlucky. I never said it was be all and end all, that’s why I keep referencing averages.

 

[BF Tiger]

Given Richmond finished 2nd last, they probably didn't bother defending all that hard, no.

Quite often you see teams more evenly distribute goals as they improve. It's not 90s football any more.

I’ve given you statistics and you’ve given me opinions. That’s fine.

 

[Falcon3518]

But more goals = better full forward?

Bloody hell people don’t read. I said majority 1000 times. Since a Coleman is for 1 season everything checks out because it’s being compared with everybody else. Not hard.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Season by season Jack has been better in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017 and 2018, Hawkins 2014, 2016, 2019, 2020 and 2021, season by season Jack wins

This is how I've got it.

Jack gets 10, 11, 13, 15, 17 and 18
Tom gets 12, 14, 19, 20, 21 and 22

Can't split 09 or 16.

 

[PhatBoy]

I’m just saying what happens, nothing more. Once those people die out and nobody can tell anymore stories about him. Record books are used, it’s inevitable.

Record books are one thing, analysis of what people said about those people are another thing altogether and those accounts shouldn’t be dismissed

Take a sport like rugby league. Beyond tries and points scored, and games played, there are stuff all numerical ways of assessing past players from the pre-statistics era of metres gained, line breaks, offloads etc etc

Unanimously it’s agreed upon that the greatest front rower of all was Arthur Beetson. Artie - who died recently - played his last game in 1980. I’ve seen a bit of footage of him in the first state of origin game decking his own Parramatta club mate Mick Cronin in that origin game but that’s really about all I’ve seen of him.

Anecdotal evidence however from those who watched him or played with him says that he hit as hard as any front rower going around, he ran as hard, but had incredible footwork for a player of his size, and was one of the first front rowers and certainly the best front rower, at being a ball player and having a passing game that could set up his teammates at a time when front rowers simply used to catch the ball, run, and get tackled.

So we can say with some confidence, ‘well all this witnesses probably aren’t just making it up, they’re right in saying that he was actually that good