Moved Thread Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?

[Falcon3518]

Record books are one thing, analysis of what people said about those people are another thing altogether and those accounts shouldn’t be dismissed

Take a sport like rugby league. Beyond tries and points scored, and games played, there are stuff all numerical ways of assessing past players from the pre-statistics era of metres gained, line breaks, offloads etc etc

Unanimously it’s agreed upon that the greatest front rower of all was Arthur Beetson. Artie - who died recently - played his last game in 1980. I’ve seen a bit of footage of him in the first state of origin game decking his own Parramatta club mate Mick Cronin in that origin game but that’s really about all I’ve seen of him.

Anecdotal evidence however from those who watched him or played with him says that he hit as hard as any front rower going around, he ran as hard, but had incredible footwork for a player of his size, and was one of the first front rowers and certainly the best front rower, at being a ball player and having a passing game that could set up his teammates at a time when front rowers simply used to catch the ball, run, and get tackled.

So we can say with some confidence, ‘well all this witnesses probably aren’t just making it up, they’re right in saying that he was actually that good

Yeah but I’m saying once the witnesses die out and nobody keeps the stories going then record books will be the primary and most credible source of information, this people will default to using them. You can still see replays but you don’t get the full experience of seeing it live, the effect is not the same.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah but I’m saying once the witnesses die out and nobody keeps the stories going then record books will be the primary and most credible source of information, this people will default to using them. You can still see replays but you don’t get the full experience of seeing it live, the effect is not the same.

The words of those witnesses don’t change after they die

 

[Meteoric Rise]

The hate for Richmond? There is literally a thread on the main board at the moment about who the most hated club is.

Geelong is beating Richmond by some distance - almost 2:1

Blue cheese effect.

People who hate Geelong dgaf about them really. Fewer people hate Richmond but with a salty passion that messes with their ability to reason.

Thus, Jack, who has clearly been the better big game performer against the best opposition of the pair and it is not even close….is denigrated as a downhill skier and Hawkins revered as a better big game player.

The blue cheese effect. More people hate the Cats but they hate them less. Less people hate Richmond but the Tigers reside in their craniums rent free. The Richmond haters hate us enough to vote falsely in polls about us. It is magnificent.

 

[Falcon3518]

The words of those witnesses don’t change after they die

They get watered down like the game Chinese Whispers until it gets to nothing.

 

[PhatBoy]

They get watered down like the game Chinese Whispers until it gets to nothing.

Not sure how written and attributed quotes can be watered down.

There’s these things called books and archives that record much of the sort of anecdotal evidence I am speaking of.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Hawkins could possibly play for another 5 years, for all the jokes and insults about his weight, he has really looked after his body and fitnesd very well

 

[Falcon3518]

Not sure how written and attributed quotes can be watered down.

There’s these things called books and archives that record much of the sort of anecdotal evidence I am speaking of.

These words will mean nothing compared to how they do to your generation. You’ve seen him so you can link the words and imagine it, they can’t. For eg all I hear about GAS is “His 89 and that other prelim were unreal” and “he smashed teams in H&A kicking bags of goals” that’s it. Don’t know any specifics about it and only really hardcore fans would be bothered seeing the replay, which in the 80s was s**t quality.

 

[TheUnicorn]

"Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?" ​

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Really enjoying this "neutral fans" thread, very informative

 

[Corn Cobbers]

"Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?" ​

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Snap

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Really enjoying this "neutral fans" thread, very informative
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Hey, when you throw a party and invite only family and friends you don’t mind if a few friends of friends turn up and they are interesting fun people.

 

[owen87]

Longevity is factored in when assessing AA. Jack was unlucky. I never said it was be all and end all, that’s why I keep referencing averages.

Reiwoldt and Hawkins both played 22 games that season. Neither played finals.

Buddy missed 6 games, still made AA.

Maybe Jack just wasn't as good as your 'but Coleman' argument makes him out to be?

 

[owen87]

Yeah but I’m saying once the witnesses die out and nobody keeps the stories going then record books will be the primary and most credible source of information, this people will default to using them. You can still see replays but you don’t get the full experience of seeing it live, the effect is not the same.

So if you ignore everything anyone who saw the players said, and only refer to record books, you'll see two players with remarkably similar statistics across their careers.

 

[owen87]

I’ve given you statistics and you’ve given me opinions. That’s fine.

You've given no statistics as to whether Reiwoldt was defended differently or not?

 

[PhatBoy]

These words will mean nothing compared to how they do to your generation. You’ve seen him so you can link the words and imagine it, they can’t. For eg all I hear about GAS is “His 89 and that other prelim were unreal” and “he smashed teams in H&A kicking bags of goals” that’s it. Don’t know any specifics about it and only really hardcore fans would be bothered seeing the replay, which in the 80s was s**t quality.

Many of the sporting icons I’m intrigued by and hold up as legends of their sport, I don’t need to embellish what they did. Eyewitness accounts from reputable people tell that story for me. I don’t need to have been alive 100 years ago to understand the magnitude of Jack Dempsey shattering the jaw of the giant Jess Willard in the opening round of a heavyweight title fight. Or the significance of black man Jack Johnson destroying all comers to show what a black man can do in a boxing ring. I don’t need to have been alive to justify the freak power of ‘the croucher’ Gilbert Jessop hitting a ball from The Oval into the nearby London gasometer to appreciate how big a strike that is: there are eyewitness descriptions to tell me how big it was.



And btw, whatever your expert take on the quality of 1980s football, there’s a website called YouTube that can assist in explaining to you the reason that everybody saw him thought GAS was ok at Australian football.

 

[PhatBoy]

"Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?" ​

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In fairness I haven’t posted a single comment about who is better of the two players.

I’m fascinated by the reasoning others use to make their decision, though.

 

[The 747]

Poll is anonymous so there's probably a heap of benny accounts.

Of course. The communists are out to get Richmond so they all voted in the poll.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

You've given no statistics as to whether Reiwoldt was defended differently or not?

There are none available and he is not the one making the claim.

The objective facts are Riewoldt over time performed marginally better and played in teams performing substantially worse.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

In fairness I haven’t posted a single comment about who is better of the two players.

I’m fascinated by the reasoning others use to make their decision, though.

Tell us then, which reasoning do you think makes the most sense - either way?

 

[Falcon3518]

Reiwoldt and Hawkins both played 22 games that season. Neither played finals.

Buddy missed 6 games, still made AA.

Maybe Jack just wasn't as good as your 'but Coleman' argument makes him out to be?

Exception does not disprove the rule!

 

[Falcon3518]

So if you ignore everything anyone who saw the players said, and only refer to record books, you'll see two players with remarkably similar statistics across their careers.

Except Coleman’s which are the most prestigious medal/award for a fwd during H&A yeah.

 

[PhatBoy]

Tell us then, which reasoning do you think makes the most sense - either way?

Careful analysis of both players, their strengths and weaknesses, their skill set, their numbers, their consistency, a whole bunch of things. If you use those measures and form an opinion I don’t really care what your opinion is I can appreciate it.

If it’s measures like one statistical data set and no others, or coleman medals or All Australian jerseys or whatever I think it’s a laughable means of arriving at a conclusion.

 

[owen87]

he is not the one making the claim.

Except where he expressly made the claim;

Being such an obvious target made Riewoldt more likely to be defended, yes?

The objective facts are Riewoldt over time performed marginally better and played in teams performing substantially worse.

He's kicked marginally more goals, with marginally less goal assists. Their career stats are almost identical, in 2 of the years Reiwoldt won a Coleman Hawkins was within 3-4 goals, which across 22 games is an insubstantial margin and is close enough so as to come down to luck as much as anything else. In one of those years Reiwoldt won the Coleman and didn't make the AA team whilst Hawkins did.

As I said, we're not talking the gap between Lockett and Reiwoldt or Hawkins here. It's 0.13 goals / game.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Except Coleman’s which are the most prestigious medal/award for a fwd during H&A yeah.

However misleading an objective measure like Coleman Medals can be - and it clearly can be misleading….a subjective award like All Australian selection can be by orders of magnitude more misleading.

2012 AA selection of Hawkins over Riewoldt is definitely contentious.

 

[owen87]

Except Coleman’s which are the most prestigious medal/award for a fwd during H&A yeah.

Nope.

It tells you which player kicked the most goals in the H&A season.

As we've discussed, it doesn't tell you who the better forward was.

Reiwoldt has the same number of Coleman medals as Dunstall and Ablett Snr, yet isn't on the same planet of them when discussing all-time best forwards.

You want to make a simplistic argument, don't get upset when people tell you it's a simplistic argument.